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      12-24-2007, 11:02 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by e90im View Post
Originally Posted by its ray den
So to end this post, all i wanted to point out is that there is no reason that science and faith are mutually exclusive. There is no reason that a person of spiritual faith is foolish and does not use science, logic and reason to believe what they believe because men of pure science use just as much faith into their data and observations. In essence, you're not better than me, and i'm not better than you.

I think that science and religion are ABSOLUTELY MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE. I also acknowledge that both can find home in a human being. 7% of US Academy of Science members are religious. This is an astounding fact. It proves that education will NOT nullify religious need in a human being.
But all these scientists will NOT debate biblical claims, because they know better. They know what faith is. Blind and private belief in supernatural without evidence.

All that being said, if religious claims are scrutinized by applying scientific methods, religion can't sustain existence.

I think it is best for the religious to simply say: I will NOT debate or reason you non-believers. I believe without proof. End of story.
Atheists also believe without proof.
As for science...

Did you know many 20th century high rise buildings don't acknowledge having a 13th floor? Do you know why? Modern man certainly is scientific isn't he?

The real question is; how scientific would we be today without the efforts of Christians? Perhaps you have heard of Issac Newton?

Issac Newton is regarded as one of the greatest scientists in history, and one of his personal passions was the Bible. Newton wrote, "When I wrote my treastise about our System I had an eye upon such Principles as might work with considering men for the belief of a Deity and nothing can rejoice me more than to find it useful for that purpose."

Certainly Johannes Kepler ranks as a shining star in the history of science. This Bible believing, Christian mathematician and astronomer discovered fundamental laws of nature that have stood the test of time and are still widely used today. Kepler is considered the Father of Celestial Mechanics and Modern Optics. Even today, NASA’s Jet Propulsion Laboratory navigates spacecraft around the solar system using Kepler’s Laws, and astronomers routinely speak of Keplerian orbits not only for the solar system but for stars orbiting galaxies, and for galaxies orbiting clusters and superclusters.* The whole universe obeys Kepler’s Laws, or as he would have preferred to say, obeys God’s laws that he merely uncovered—as Kepler put it, “Since we astronomers are priests of the highest God in regard to the book of nature, it befits us to be thoughtful, not of the glory of our minds, but rather, above all else, of the glory of God.”

How about Kelvin? A mathematical physisist, engineer, and outstanding leader in the physical sciences of the 19th century. His important work still stands today in the analysis of electricity and thermodynamics, and did much to unify the emerging discipline of physics in its modern form. He is widely known for developing the Kelvin scale of absolute temperature measurement.

Consider Sir Francis Bacon—developed the Scientific Method, considered by many historians to be the “founder of modern science,” and professed allegiance to Christianity and belief in Christian doctrines. A devout Anglican remembered with a great scientific mind, who wrote, "Knowledge is the rich storehouse for the glory of the Creator and the relief of man's estate.... a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion." In his will, he included this final prayer: "When I thought most of peace and honor, thy hand [was] heavy on me, and hath humbled me, according to thy former loving kindness. … Just are thy judgments upon my sins. … Be merciful unto me for my Savior's sake, and receive me into thy bosom."

How about Charles Townes? In 1964 he won the Nobel Prize in Physics and in 1966 he wrote "The Convergence of Science and Religion."

Then there is Robert Boyd, (1922-2004) Vice President of the Royal Astronomical Society. He lectured on faith being a founder of the "Research Scientists' Christian Fellowship" and an important member of its predecessor, Christians in Science. He was director of the UCL Mullard Space Science Laboratory from 1965 to 1983, and widely regarded as the father of space science in the UK.

How about Francis Collins? He is the director of the US National Human Genome Research Institute. He has also written on religious matters in articles and in Faith and the Human Genome he states the importance to him of "the literal and historical Resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, which is the cornerstone of what I believe." Collins also states, "After twenty-eight years as a believer, the Moral Law stands out for me as the strongest signpost of God." He also has a recent book titled The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief.

Who could forget Albert Einstein—often wrongly considered an atheist, who said regarding the historical Jesus, "As a child I received instruction both in the Bible and in the Talmud. I am a Jew, but I am enthralled by the luminous figure of the Nazarene... no one can read the Gospels without feeling the actual presence of Jesus. His personality pulsates in every word. No myth is filled with such life." Einstein said of the Creator, "The deeper one penetrates into nature's secrets, the greater becomes one's respect for God."

What about Robert T. Bakker, the Christian paleantologist who wears a cowboy hat and was caricatured in the movie Jurassic Park... Bakker was responsible for initiating the ongoing "dinosaur Renaissance" in paleontological studies, beginning with his article "Dinosaur Renaissance" in Scientific American, April 1975.

Perhaps you've heard of James Irwin, this dedicated, "ignorant Christian" earned a Master of Science in aeronautical engineering and instrumentation engineering from the University of Michigan. Upon graduation from the Naval Academy, he was commissioned in the United States Air Force. Prior to joining NASA, he was Chief of the Advanced Requirements Branch at Headquarters Air Defense Command. Irwin then went on to become a member of the Apollo 15 mission and the eighth man to walk on the Moon and the first man to drive a lunar rover on the Moon. After all that, he ended up starting a ministry promoting the of all things... the Bible.

Then there is Lambert Dolphin, a brilliant physicist holding a degree with high honors in physics and distinction in mathematics from San Diego State University, and some 30 years on the the staff of SRI International (formerly Stanford Research Institute). In Lambert's article, "What Holds the Universe together?," this Bible believer contemplates Colossians Chapter 1 and writes, "This passage strongly suggests that the active power of God is behind the mysterious strong force that holds every atomic nucleus together."

How about a Christian named Rustum Roy, one of the world's foremost materials scientists, holds three chairs at the Pennsylvania State University, five professorships and has authored over 1,000 published papers, articles and books; basically a list of scientific achievements and contributions as long as your arm.

How about Dr. Maurice Rawlings, a respected cardiologist who watched one of his patients drop dead during a stress test and then come back to life with his hair standing on end, screaming about not wanting to go back to Hell. Rawlings was a devout atheist at the time, but ended up becoming a Christian and writing a book called "Beyond Death's Door," relating his startling experiences in the E.R. with patients who claim to experience life after clinical death in the hospital...

Let's not forget the 600+ voting scientists of the Creation Research Society (voting membership requires at least an earned master's degree in a recognized area of science).

The list goes on, and the point I am making is; the only thing more dumb than the idea that Christianity and true science are somehow incompatible is the obsurd notion that all "real" scientists must be athiests. To the contrary; a relationship with the Creator is the best foundation for understanding the creation.
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