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      08-24-2007, 02:35 PM   #98
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Originally Posted by Noize
The Quran tells that truth is found in the Bible and that we are not to waver from it.
Aha, good point. Sadly, the Bible is not what we are told to accept. We are told to accept God's previous revelation in the Injeel. The Injeel is what was revealed to Prophet Isa (AS). The Bible we have presently is not that. There are many reasons for that, maybe we could start a new thread - Is the Bible the word of God?

Originally Posted by Noize
As you stated, Romans 3:23 says "For all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." **The Bible tells us that the penalty of sin is death.
This is my very point. Since the Bible is the word of man, how can we trust it's words? I think we would have to really look at the question - Is the Bible the word of God. Morever, if we look at MANY parts of the Bible, we can see that it wasnt divinely inspired. Infact, even the compilation ALONE tells us this. Here's just one verse though:

Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, it seemed good also to me to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.
Luke (1:1-4)

Originally Posted by Noize
Because Christians see Jesus as God, as the Messiah. Just because our finite minds cannot process infinity and physically understand the Trinity as a concrete tangible, does mean its not true or you have somehow disproven it? Of course not!
It is only too easy for people to create a new concept and then claim it can never be understood because we are finite and God is infinite. I believe that if we are even going to use the word "trinity" then yes, we must apply simple logic to it. The word trinity suggests that there are 3 parts of God. I'm simply showing that this concept does not work on any ground of logic. We cannot simply say logic cant be used because our minds cant process God because he is infinite.

Originally Posted by Noize
Physical death entered the world because of Adam and Eve's sin, but the big penalty of sin is that is separates us from God.
I dont think that is possible. You even admitted that we are finite. Therefore, we are never going to live forever on Earth, our lives will eventually be over. This Earth is finite too. Everything on it is finite.

Moreover, if you say Physical death entered the world because of the first sin, then this hasnt really changed has it? Even believing in Jesus (thus having salvation) doesnt reverse this. You are living proof of it.

Also, we muslims dont believe in original sin as a curse etc. We believe that Allah created the universe and created us. We also believe that Adam (AS) and Eve (May Allah be pleased with them) were taught an original lesson in Heaven. They were taught that the Devil can trick us into sinning, and yes it did lead to a sin. But it was part of Allah's plan. He designed this Earth for human life (animal/plant life too, which is needed for human life) which I can prove scientifically in a thousand ways. Thus, he intended for us to live on Earth all along.

Originally Posted by Noize
That's your opinion, but you are far from proof. Only statements.
I'm not so sure that it is. I have shown that the title "Son of God" can be bestowed on quite a lot of people. Infact, even David in the Bible is called the begotted Son of God. On top of that, I have shown how illogical it is to believe that Jesus is the Son of God. Jesus (AS) even makes it clear that he was sent by God, he ISNT God.

Originally Posted by Noize
Why do you feel that God made flesh and sacrificed to pay once and for all for man's sin to those who believe is theologically impossible? Based on what?
The Bible has a conflicting message about how our sins can be dealt with. A lot of the Bible tells us that God can choose to forgive us. Now, the rest of the Bible tells us that God NEEDED to die for us. Which is it?

Originally Posted by Noize
It doesn't limit his ability to forgive at all. We (by sinning) are CHOOSING separation. If you offer me your hand, but I slap it away, I've hardened my heart against you by refusing to take it. Holiness doesn't take unholiness. We're in a sin filled world and cannot comprehend (finite) black and white. And we sure cannot attain holiness by ourselves because of our sinful nature. Jesus as God made flesh is the only person who never sinned once. Muhammad certainly can't claim that!
I feel the last statement was unnecessary but anyway...

Firstly, I believe we can obtain holiness. We only need to turn to God and follow his laws for that. We dont need anything else. UncleWede said that we wouldnt choose God if we had the choice. I dont think that's true. Some people do actually choose God. Let's pretend they dont (which they do), has that changed because of the "crucifixion"? No. Not everyone chooses God. So it remains that NOTHING will make ALL of us choose God.

Originally Posted by Noize
Again, you're putting your finite restrictions on the infinite God that you cannot_physically_understand. How can man's laws define the God that wrote the book? Answer: They can't.
I feel that I have answered this above. One other comment I would like to make is that I feel that God would never create us in such a way that we could never understand him and then want us to understand the way he wants us to live. Part of understanding the way he wants is to live, is understanding Allah's beautiful nature etc. Thus, it means we could never have a personal relationship with God if we couldnt understand him.

Infact, you a are a Christian and through all your study of it you still say that we cannot understand God with our physical mind. I feel that it is only too easy to claim that.

Also, you said that I cant put "finite restrictions" on God. I'm not doing that at all. It's clear that God made his own parameters. He is infinite, everything else is infinite. Now, for you to tell me that he would become man in flesh and mix infinite/finite beings (as I explained), I think you would need to prove this. We cannot make this assumption or concept with no proof.

If you can't see what my faith is based on from the above writing, I don't know if we will be able to understand each other and have a coherent dialog.

I do, really my friend, I do see it. But I just cant agree with you on what you would call it...