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Originally Posted by Duckworth

I just find the OEMs in thrall to the whims of 20 somethings writing about cars they'll never be able to afford themselves a bit weird.

I'd agree but I think most journalists I read / see are probably... 40, 50 years old.

I'd guess too that the OEM's have people studying this pretty well and making a legit business case. BMW's too smart to make something they don't actually think will sell, or be worth it in some way or another even if it's not obvious.

Good discussion by the way, please don't think I'm singling out what you're typing.

[rob5819]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

I'd agree but I think most journalists I read / see are probably... 40, 50 years old.

I'd guess too that the OEM's have people studying this pretty well and making a legit business case. BMW's too smart to make something they don't actually think will sell, or be worth it in some way or another even if it's not obvious.

Good discussion by the way, please don't think I'm singling out what you're typing.

My favotite conversaion: DCT vs. manual. I currently have two of each. My personal experience, 400 HP (and below) cars should have a manual transmission. 600+ HP cars should have a DCT. I'm not sure how well the numbers will work for the Z4 6MT, will dealers order Z4s with the 6MT or only personal orders?

My two preferred car brands are BMW and Ferrari. It's been interesting to follow the manual transmission between both. Ferrari ended the manual transmission in 2009 after only 2 percent ordered the gated 430. At the time it made sense. The F1 transmission was much faster than the gated manual. 2010 458 and beyond were only available with the Getrag DCT. Now, 430 gated cars go for at least $50k more than F1. There is a healthy market for converting 430s from F1 to gated manual.

I loved the looks / specs of the G29 when I first saw it, but had no interest in buying one (21 year owner of a 228HP E85 2003 Z4 manual and was actively shopping for a Z8 or a gated 430 Spider). As soon as a 6MT was announced for the G29 I went looking for a test drive in a G29 and ordered the 6MT G29 the next day. The automatic G29 I test drove was an amazing drive, significantly faster and better sounding than the 6MT that was delivered two weeks ago (ordered in April). Despite that, I am enjoying the G29 6MT much more than I enjoyed the automatic. Happy that BMW finally made a car that I wanted

Anyway, I've had this conversation with many car enthusiasts concerning many brands and it always ends the same way: fast cars slow / slow cars fast / Tesla Plaid. Pick what interests you. I could have saved a lot of my money had I not given my 1994 Miata to my brother-in-law.

Love to hear what every one else thinks

Rob

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I'm sure I'm just stuck in a period of time. I prefer sticks, I also prefer hydraulic steering without too much assist. I prefer half the nannies to go away. I'd like to look at a wiring diagram and know how to fix just about anything.

But it can go too far. Power brakes are nice. As are automatic headlights. There might be a day where I'm retroactively happy that automatic emergency braking is a thing too. And reliable high horsepower. So I know that everything old isn't inherently better.

A psychiatrist might say I simply wanted the car I couldn't afford in my 20's, who knows. That I got a smallish, fun to drive, inline 6, manual BMW that's actually new with a warranty and should last decades is pretty amazing. I'd change some things if I could, of course, but it's hard to complain.

[Argo]

Originally Posted by Duckworth

Miatas, of course, are mostly manuals.

And that's considering the Miata's engine pairs well with a manual and the 6 speed auto available on it is much worse than the ZF8.

[rikwynnpa]

I think this guy's review is pretty much accurate. The Z4 manual is maybe one of the last totally analog sports cars that you can buy and that's really its main appeal. Manuals are going away fast and ICE cars will be gone in about 10 years. The next gen Boxster will be electric only.

You wont have more fun on a sunny day than rowing through the gears in this car. $75K is a solid value for this car IMO.

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Haven't had a chance to watch it yet and forma n opinion. I generally like these guys though and feel they've got enough automotive experience to make a solid opinion. And he owns a Cayman which I wonder if he'll compare to.

[Z4ME]

Regarding the manual vs auto debate, I can appreciate both. I have an FDRX7 and a 981 GT4. Both manuals. My m40i has the ZF. All three are a blast to drive. Yes, the manuals are a bit more “engaging”. There’s no denying that. If you are rowing your own gears, your body is involved with the car on a higher level. But the z4 is an absolute blast in the twisties. Very nimble and exciting as it seems faster because all of your senses are focused on fewer things. There’s just less going on when you don’t have to simultaneously operate the clutch, brake, shift lever etc. All are great imo. Just different.

[tomato_salad]

I was actually happy to transition from a manual NC Miata to an automatic Mazda 3 as I was getting tired of driving in DC traffic. Getting my Z4 I wasn't too concerned about getting automatic because I knew I'd suffer in NJ traffic with manual. All in all, it's a fancy DD beast that checks 99% of my boxes and I'm happy to own one at all.

[blue135]

I tend to agree. If I had to deal with daily traffic (or wanted to go really quickly) I would have opted for the auto. Both have their advantages.

[Horseman]

Originally Posted by MisanoblueZ4

I’ve watched about half before I had to break away. Was disappointed to hear in the opening he did not want to drive a Z4 until the manual appeared. (Maybe the free press car this time was the real reason he is in it now)

Too many “enthusiasts” did not give the G29 Z4 a drive in previous years due to some weird manual bias. Now they rave about the handling, speed, and drop top……welcome to 2019 many on this forum have been fortunate to own a G29 Z4 for many years now and already knew how good it was.

I personally don't understand this made up love for stick shift. Can it be fun? Sure... but to say OMG, no paddle shifters for me... i don't understand. I've driven both, stick shift is just the same damn thing as paddle shifters but with more steps.

The ONLY benefit I'd get out of a manual is being able to very easily pop it into neutral to get a few good revs in without having to ... do other weird shit to get it there.

I'm not saying that people shouldn't love it.. what I am saying is that there shouldn't be this weird obsession with it.

[tracer bullet]

Originally Posted by Horseman

I personally don't understand this made up love for stick shift.

Playing Devil's advocate, you're acknowledging that it's a matter of opinion, then knocking people's opinions.

[Horseman]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Playing Devil's advocate, you're acknowledging that it's a matter of opinion, then knocking people's opinions.

I'm not knocking the opinion, i'm knocking the statements that usually come with it like... car sucks unless it's stick. "oh i can't believe you didn't get this car in stick" ... "oh you didn't get stick? why even bother?"

As I said.. weird obsession, when objectively the automotive industry has gone to automatic/paddle shifters for a reason. Even in racing.

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Originally Posted by Horseman

for a reason

Better CAFE for the automakers
Faster shifts for the racers
Plus, lazy Americans

You're still acknowledging the preference is an opinion and then trying to say why one of the opinions is bad. The opinion is that it's more fun for some people. You can not provide evidence otherwise. Not that you haven't done it yet, you just simply can't. No one can.

[Horseman]

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

Better CAFE for the automakers
Faster shifts for the racers
Plus, lazy Americans

You're still acknowledging the preference is an opinion and then trying to say why one of the opinions is bad. The opinion is that it's more fun for some people. You can not provide evidence otherwise. Not that you haven't done it yet, you just simply can't. No one can.

Ok, not quite right on all three there....

Automakers are "shifting" (see what I did there?) to automatic transmissions or paddle shifter gearboxes for a vast majority of their vehicles for a reason. Even high end cars such as Lamborghini, Ferrari, Aston Martin, Pagani and even Koenigsegg are going to automatic paddleshifters. The rare cases are Koenigsegg where they have the cool new gearbox that allows for both Manual AND automatic transmissions in the same car.

Racing is also starting to go to automatic gearboxes. Drag racing preference is automatic due to its short distance and chance to get into the wrong gear which would cost them the race. Indy cars use a semi-automatic gear box, F1 does sequential manual gearboxes as do rally or other off roads. Drift racing of course will require that manual touch because of the what they need the car to do. (and ... hand brake). Honestly though, most people in these forums and those buying a Z4 aren't racing. Some are..... but a majority are NOT. So ... we're talking about day to day shit here. Dropping off kid, sitting in traffic, hitting the back roads, high way driving, city driving. Not pulling a power turn around the nurnburgring....

Lazy Americans? ICYMI: Most Americans are the ones that prefer manual gearboxes for their sport cars and downright refuse to buy an automatic.

I'm not saying an opinion is bad... I am saying this "mightier than thou" attitude is.

https://www.enginebuildermag.com/202...transmissions/

https://www.quora.com/What-type-of-s...gear-the-power

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Originally Posted by Horseman

I'm not saying an opinion is bad... I am saying this "mightier than thou" attitude is.

No disagreement there, even as a person who'd only buy the car with a stick. I won't fault anyone not doing so.

[FoxberryJam]

I love driving a manual, but NOT in crazy rush hour traffic. My new G29 is actually my first ever daily-driver manual. I used to drive a LOT thru high traffic areas for work (ie: North Jersey, Staten Island, Long Island, Westchester County, etc.) - not so much anymore - majority of my driving is local (aka enjoyable) now - so it was finally time for me to go with the manual full time - timed perfectly with the release of the G29 Handschalter!

[Balr14]

I drove almost all manual transmissions for over 60 years. It became second nature and got rather tedious. Modern drivetrains and modern automatics make manual transmissions feel really outdated. They have much better performance and offer lots of modes and settings to play with. Plus, I don't like to give up the performance advantage of automatics, particularly with turbo charged engines.

If I was driving a car from the 30s, 40s or 50s, I would definitely want a manual transmission. Those are the cars I drove when I was growing up, so there's a certain feel of nostalgia.

[MisanoblueZ4]

I drove many manuals and in fact one of my first posts on this forum was my “concern” of if I would find the ZF8 enjoyable enough. After a year of ownership, this transmission does not make me miss the manual 99% of the time.
I may certainly like to row the gears very occasionally, but here along the coast it’s traffic and easy beachside cruising….not canyon carving. If I go full manual on the ZF8 it’s mildly entertaining but then it’s back to Adaptive/Sport mode not soon after.
I can drop 10-15mpg by using manual mode and reving the engine out to 4k each shift, it’s easy to see why the manuals will have worse MPG’s.

This is just how I drive my Z4, to those buying a manual the constant engagement of a manual will trump any MPG/max performance advantage and they wouldn’t trade that experience for an auto no matter what.

Most importantly is that we grow the owner base and have G29 Z4’s remembered as great cars. Happy to see more car people take the Z4 seriously….better late then never!

[TheRealBob]

Everybody on the forum has purchased either a manual or an automatic, because whatever their history, it dictated that decision. The same is true for color preference and choice of options. My decision to consider the car at all, was based on the availability of a manual. I'm coming from an F90 M5, that was both the most exhilarating and capable all around car I've ever owned, but after 6 years, I longed for the total driving experience that a smaller, lighter, more engaging car would offer. I'm 79 years old, and wanted something that didn't require massive acceleration and triple digit speeds, to be enjoyable, although it is FUN. For me at least, the manual requires my ageing brain to remain engaged maybe a bit more than the automatic would.

There is no better or worse, just whatever dictates the personal decision for each one of us.

[blue135]

Agree with everything Bob & Hair & Misano said. And I got the manual because I wanted the manual. Not quite as old as Bob, but give me a couple of years and I will be there.
I enjoyed my 135i/6sp, but I WANT to drive the Z4. Just enjoy it. (Both still in my garage - anybody want an E88 with full Dinan S3 pkg?)