[TAZ007]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

The S58 would be too much power for the Z…. You don’t like the B58? I actually prefer it. More torque low, plenty fast to 100 mph. Higher compression ratio makes it feel more like NA.

Just went out for a drive. Little wet but turned off traction and spun the tires through second and still had some play at high revs. Such a fun setup this car.

The S58 in my M3 was track only use basically. Just a silly amount of power for the street.

It's not that I dislike the B58, but if I'm going to take the steep financial hit upgrading a perfectly great car; I want more for the transaction. A BMW stick is not worth the $ solely.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by TAZ007

It's not that I dislike the B58, but if I'm going to take the steep financial hit upgrading a perfectly great car; I want more for the transaction. A BMW stick is not worth the $ solely.

Gotcha. Sounds like you should go with the M2. Or Supra.

[stlcdr]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

True. Check out this chart. I don't believe this takes into account the huge increase in options averages on each 911 sold. And the variants have become larger steps in pricing as well (and new variants, of course). Current base 911 price is $116k.

I was tempted to look at the Porsche over the Z. While the 911 is pretty much out, the base price of the 718 (Boxter S) is marginally over the Z4 M40i, but close enough that it's a rounding error when you are looking at 70-80k, with similar performance. But then the multitude of options, while nice, is overwhelming and costly.

'Downgrading' to the Boxter, and the Z4 has something that the Boxter will never have, plus the options, again.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by stlcdr

I was tempted to look at the Porsche over the Z. While the 911 is pretty much out, the base price of the 718 (Boxter S) is marginally over the Z4 M40i, but close enough that it's a rounding error when you are looking at 70-80k, with similar performance. But then the multitude of options, while nice, is overwhelming and costly.

'Downgrading' to the Boxter, and the Z4 has something that the Boxter will never have, plus the options, again.

Also take into account they just jacked prices up again about 10% for base models. I put in a deposit on a 911T a few months ago, the OTD with ADM and taxes was $150k. The same car is now is $162k. I bailed and got my deposit back. I have a friend with a GT3RS on order. His allocation was delayed 2 years. Price was just raised $35k. He’ll probably get that back anyway, but $162k for a manual, base 911 with some performance bits is insane and kind of sad for all of us who aspired to the 911 at some mid life crisis point. Even the CPO and used market is ridiculous.

As far as the 718, I just can’t see myself in one at a reasonable price point. A 4 banger that’s a bit cramped isn’t my cup of tea. I’d love to have more road feel and better dynamics, but it’s not worth the sacrifice of space and comfort and even things like navigation and ambient lighting (Porsche charges $3k for navigation).

[TAZ007]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Gotcha. Sounds like you should go with the M2. Or Supra.

I'm a ragtop man.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by TAZ007

I'm a ragtop man.

Iyiyi! Maybe Spyder then?! Is it fast enough for you though..? C8 vette??

[alvitdk]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

As far as the 718, I just can’t see myself in one at a reasonable price point. A 4 banger that’s a bit cramped isn’t my cup of tea. I’d love to have more road feel and better dynamics, but it’s not worth the sacrifice of space and comfort and even things like navigation and ambient lighting (Porsche charges $3k for navigation).

718GTS is a 6-cyl N/A and a gorgeous engine, bummer they have not updated the interior in the last 9 years, looks the same as my 981S, hence not getting another one.

[StanDiego]

Originally Posted by stlcdr

I was tempted to look at the Porsche over the Z. While the 911 is pretty much out, the base price of the 718 (Boxter S) is marginally over the Z4 M40i, but close enough that it's a rounding error when you are looking at 70-80k, with similar performance. But then the multitude of options, while nice, is overwhelming and costly.

'Downgrading' to the Boxter, and the Z4 has something that the Boxter will never have, plus the options, again.

I was in love with the 911 nearly my entire life, since I saw the new '68 911T in one of the car magazines at the age of 11. The 911T was the "no frills" model that could be had for around $40K. For decades I vowed I'd some day own one but then life and family put that on hold. For many years, older low mileage models were reasonably priced but still not a good fit for my family situation. Finally into a new phase of life only to discover used models have gone up substantially, to the point I wasn't comfortable spending so much for used.

On to the Boxster, like you I discovered a decently optioned model was costly and above my budget and nearly unobtainable. I may be forever thankful for that because it led me to the Z4 and I'm convinced the GT lean of the Z4 is a much better match at this point in life than the sport leaning Boxster. As Garth Brooks sang, I'm thankful for unanswered prayers.

I'm quite happy with my automatic but, one time, I'd love to drive a Z4 manual just to get it out of my system.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by StanDiego

I was in love with the 911 nearly my entire life, since I saw the new '68 911T in one of the car magazines at the age of 11. The 911T was the "no frills" model that could be had for around $40K. For decades I vowed I'd some day own one but then life and family put that on hold. For many years, older low mileage models were reasonably priced but still not a good fit for my family situation. Finally into a new phase of life only to discover used models have gone up substantially, to the point I wasn't comfortable spending so much for used.

On to the Boxster, like you I discovered a decently optioned model was costly and above my budget and nearly unobtainable. I may be forever thankful for that because it led me to the Z4 and I'm convinced the GT lean of the Z4 is a much better match at this point in life than the sport leaning Boxster. As Garth Brooks sang, I'm thankful for unanswered prayers.

I'm quite happy with my automatic but, one time, I'd love to drive a Z4 manual just to get it out of my system.

100% agree and nice GB reference!
I sometimes wonder why there is a plethora of Porsches for sale, especially 981 and 982 caymans and Boxsters - way more than Z3/4 if you ask me - and I think it’s because of maintenance costs and a bit of dissatisfaction, and perhaps timing of market pricing.. and could be overall volumes. I have NO empirical evidence to back up this claim or theory. I’ve always been a bimmer guy, never crossed the threshold to Porsche apart from a misguided deposit.

[alvitdk]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

100% agree and nice GB reference!
I sometimes wonder why there is a plethora of Porsches for sale, especially 981 and 982 caymans and Boxsters - way more than Z3/4 if you ask me - and I think it’s because of maintenance costs and a bit of dissatisfaction, and perhaps timing of market pricing.. and could be overall volumes. I have NO empirical evidence to back up this claim or theory. I’ve always been a bimmer guy, never crossed the threshold to Porsche apart from a misguided deposit.

I think it is mostly market pricing and certainly not dissatisfaction, at least not for me and the guys in our local club. I recently sold my 2014 981S with 76k miles for only 5k less then what I paid for 5 years ago. Maintenance isn't that bad either if you use a independent shop, which is what most people do. Oil changes around 190.- Spark plugs run 300.- due to location, but if something goes wrong, I mean really wrong, it is expensive for sure. (20k+ pdk replacement for a simple positioning sensor failure, and they do not offer repairs).

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by alvitdk

I think it is mostly market pricing and certainly not dissatisfaction, at least not for me and the guys in our local club. I recently sold my 2014 981S with 76k miles for only 5k less then what I paid for 5 years ago. Maintenance isn't that bad either if you use a independent shop, which is what most people do. Oil changes around 190.- Spark plugs run 300.- due to location, but if something goes wrong, I mean really wrong, it is expensive for sure. (20k+ pdk replacement for a simple positioning sensor failure, and they do not offer repairs).

Incredible

[mjposner]

"Honestly, throw an S58 and a manual in either of the Zupr4 twins and I'll be first on line with my order. The won't do it, but they SHOULD."

And pay $95k? Never gonna happen...way less likely than a manual

[M4_444]

Originally Posted by mjposner

"Honestly, throw an S58 and a manual in either of the Zupr4 twins and I'll be first on line with my order. The won't do it, but they SHOULD."

And pay $95k? Never gonna happen...way less likely than a manual

It ain't about price. There is just no way BMW will ever do it. That combo would be one of the highest power to weight ratio cars they've ever made. Even at $95k, it would be an incredibly unique and compelling offering which further solidifies my position that they'll never do it

But yes, I think it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that we'll see a manual in the G29 before it's production run ends. The performance numbers will be less (hence not infringing on the M3/M4's turf) but the nostalgia factor will be greater and they'll sell well. It'll boost that final year(s) production numbers as BMW sunsets if final ICE roadster.

[mjposner]

M4_444 you really are an optimist. There is no Z4M because demand for one has fallen (from the Z3M to the 1st gen Z4M to no Z4M in the 2nd gen). They can barely sell the Z4M40i at $70k so virtually no one would buy a Z4M at $95k (which is loaded Boxster or lightly used 911 territory).

"I think it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that we'll see a manual in the G29 before it's production run ends" Based on what? Nostalgia?

"and they'll sell well" BMW does not think so, that is why it hasn't been produced. The market for 2 seat roadsters is small and falling, and the manual will only steal sales from the auto not produce many new buyers (look at the manual sales for the Supra). keep in mind you can't even get a manual M4 vert either.

As much as I would like to see a manual Z4, the business decision makes it more unlikely than a foregone conclusion. Hope I am wrong.

[josemenf]

In Europe In 2019, manual transmission was launched, only to be discontinued a few months later.

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Geradeaus

Read somewhere that the Z4 won't be getting the extended infotainment screen. Happy about that as I like the current layout.

BMW sent their feedback request - I told them 1) don’t put iD8 in the Z4 and 2) offer a manual. They said the head office in Munich reviews the feedback, so hopefully everyone is telling them the same thing!

Also, I never considered the Z4 other than a fleeting thought until I saw one in the showroom. Drove it and was all in. I would argue it’s more enjoyable to drive than most M cars as well. Interested in driving the M2 at some point.

[M4_444]

Originally Posted by mjposner

M4_444 you really are an optimist. There is no Z4M because demand for one has fallen (from the Z3M to the 1st gen Z4M to no Z4M in the 2nd gen). They can barely sell the Z4M40i at $70k so virtually no one would buy a Z4M at $95k (which is loaded Boxster or lightly used 911 territory).

"I think it's pretty much a foregone conclusion that we'll see a manual in the G29 before it's production run ends" Based on what? Nostalgia?

"and they'll sell well" BMW does not think so, that is why it hasn't been produced. The market for 2 seat roadsters is small and falling, and the manual will only steal sales from the auto not produce many new buyers (look at the manual sales for the Supra). keep in mind you can't even get a manual M4 vert either.

As much as I would like to see a manual Z4, the business decision makes it more unlikely than a foregone conclusion. Hope I am wrong.

To be clear, when I say they will sell well I specifically mean relatively in the context of Z4s. It will still be, on an absolute basis, a low volume car.

Also, the M roadster has ALWAYS been a niche car. Foolish to think that BMW doesn't know that. If they WERE to do it as they have in the past, they would go in knowing that the take rate would be tiny at the price they would charge. It would more than likely be a money loser but BMW certainly does like to occasionally give a proper nod to their enthusiast base.

As much as I would love to see an S58 G29, I think more than the price, low volume and almost guaranteed loss they'll take on it, the theoretical performance numbers it could put up is a bit of an embarrassment to the M2, M3 and M4. Same context of why Porsche has always and will continue to keep a hard cap on the Boxter/Cayman line as to not show up their 911s.

[r-jac]

Originally Posted by josemenf

In Europe In 2019, manual transmission was launched, only to be discontinued a few months later.

It has never been discontinued

I will receive mine next week (20i 2023)

[josemenf]

https://www.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...php?p=30095621

🫨

[Balr14]

I don't like manual transmissions with turbo engines. The boost drop between shifts gets quite annoying.

[TAZ007]

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

Iyiyi! Maybe Spyder then?! Is it fast enough for you though..? C8 vette??

I got a #s matching C3 4-spd

[Bimmerfun82]

Originally Posted by Balr14

I don't like manual transmissions with turbo engines. The boost drop between shifts gets quite annoying.

Haven’t heard anyone complaining about this on the Supra - same engine. The B58 doesn’t seem like it would be problematic given the higher compression; it feels more like NA than any other turbo bmw I’ve had. But I didn’t have this problem with the S55. And I don’t see a boost drop problem with the S58 in the videos I’ve seen of the M2/M4.