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      10-08-2019, 08:16 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightz71 View Post
That torque curve on the Supra though... am I reading this right? +50wtq on top of the Z4 @ 2.5krpm? Are the turbo PNs different?

Looks like a much smaller turbine on the Supra (+ some software castration) to yield that tq curve but lack of hp up top. With this chart - Supra should be way more fun to drive around town, it's also 200lbs lighter.
The turbos are definitely different part numbers, both versions of B58 turbos have the exhaust manifold integrated into the turbine housing.

All variants of BMW's B58 from the original 2016 340i to the newest G29 Z4 M40i (both US and EU spec) use a typical 6 to 2 manifold design that you would see on a twin scroll turbocharger.



The Toyota Supra's B58 has the 3 to 1 sections of its exhaust manifold built into the engine cylinder head where the manifold is actually cooled by the engine coolant. This engine only has 2 external exhaust ports that go directly into the twin scroll turbo housing.

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      10-08-2019, 09:28 PM   #24
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Those z4 figures are in line with some of the detuned s55 m2 comp numbers!
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      10-09-2019, 01:38 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by jdub486 View Post
Those z4 figures are in line with some of the detuned s55 m2 comp numbers!
Not at all. Dynos are showing anything from 410 to 430 at the wheels on M2Cs. Search for Fuel-it dyno thread on the forum, their stock M2C got over 430 whp in 118 degree AZ weather.
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      10-09-2019, 11:37 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by flightz71 View Post
That torque curve on the Supra though... am I reading this right? +50wtq on top of the Z4 @ 2.5krpm? Are the turbo PNs different?

Looks like a much smaller turbine on the Supra (+ some software castration) to yield that tq curve but lack of hp up top. With this chart - Supra should be way more fun to drive around town, it's also 200lbs lighter.
The Supra's torque curve is almost identical to the Z4's up to about 4600rpm except it comes on a couple hundred rpm earlier. I read 3397 lbs for the Supra and 3443 for the Z4 so I don't think there is 200 lbs difference.

I agree that there is some software manipulation to get the torque so high for the hp; normally a 50hp difference would generate a much larger difference in times compared to what we have seen so far..... though the vast majority of comparisons have been with the neutered euro version of the Z4. It would seem that the version we get here has basic performance parity with the Supra despite the hp difference. I'll chalk it up to the Supra having similar torque figures, power coming on a bit earlier and the slight weight advantage. 0-60 may be similar, in the quarter the extra hp should show itself but I wouldn't expect much of a difference.


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      10-09-2019, 04:31 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
GPF(Gas Particulate Filter) to blame?

Kinda ironic if so.
No, they're just different versions of the B58. The Euro M340i uses a version of the engine that is almost the same as the American M340i and American Z4 M40i. The Euro M340i makes about 375hp which is a direct result of the GPF required for European cars.

The B58 version in the Euro Z4 M40i and Supra are just different. I think it's mostly due to tuning, but there are some B58 versions with different parts. For instance, the earlier 320hp versions of the motor did not have the head-integrated exhaust manifold that more modern versions do.
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      10-09-2019, 05:04 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
No, they're just different versions of the B58. The Euro M340i uses a version of the engine that is almost the same as the American M340i and American Z4 M40i. The Euro M340i makes about 375hp which is a direct result of the GPF required for European cars.

The B58 version in the Euro Z4 M40i and Supra are just different. I think it's mostly due to tuning, but there are some B58 versions with different parts. For instance, the earlier 320hp versions of the motor did not have the head-integrated exhaust manifold that more modern versions do.
Yea I never understood why Euro Z4 M40 was underpowered when the new M340i did not have the same problem with GPF. There might be commercial reasons.
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      10-09-2019, 05:39 PM   #29
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It's seems that despite blaming the hp difference on the GPF, it doesn't "cost" that much hp in other BMW applications?? There are significant hardware differences between the Z4's B58B30O1 and the Supra's B58B30M1 - heads, pistons, conrods, manifolds, turbos, etc.

https://g29.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1621271&page=3
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      10-09-2019, 05:56 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPelletier View Post
It's seems that despite blaming the hp difference on the GPF, it doesn't "cost" that much hp in other BMW applications?? There are significant hardware differences between the Z4's B58B30O1 and the Supra's B58B30M1 - heads, pistons, conrods, manifolds, turbos, etc.

https://g29.bimmerpost.com/forums/sh...1621271&page=3
I wouldn't call them significant. According to that post, the crankshaft, bearings, valves, cams, and block are the same. Architecture seems to be the same as well. Everything works the same way and parts are probably interchangeable on both engine version.

The only differences pointed out are the pistons, rods, turbocharger, and head. Most likely the head, pistons (& rings) and conrods were just made to withstand a bit more power. The mechanical bits in the head are all identical. The only real part that makes a difference in power would be the turbocharger and the engine tune. And I bet the engine tune has more to do with the power bump than the turbo.
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      10-09-2019, 06:11 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remonster View Post
The turbos are definitely different part numbers, both versions of B58 turbos have the exhaust manifold integrated into the turbine housing.

All variants of BMW's B58 from the original 2016 340i to the newest G29 Z4 M40i (both US and EU spec) use a typical 6 to 2 manifold design that you would see on a twin scroll turbocharger.


The Toyota Supra's B58 has the 3 to 1 sections of its exhaust manifold built into the engine cylinder head where the manifold is actually cooled by the engine coolant. This engine only has 2 external exhaust ports that go directly into the twin scroll turbo housing.
There are some Euro Z4 M40i models with the B58C that have that feature.

In America, all the newer non M Performance cars will now use the version of the motor with the integrated exhaust manifold like the 540i, 740i, (maybe the 840i?), and the X5 x40i.
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      10-09-2019, 06:26 PM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
I wouldn't call them significant. According to that post, the crankshaft, bearings, valves, cams, and block are the same. Architecture seems to be the same as well. Everything works the same way and parts are probably interchangeable on both engine version.

The only differences pointed out are the pistons, rods, turbocharger, and head. Most likely the head, pistons (& rings) and conrods were just made to withstand a bit more power. The mechanical bits in the head are all identical. The only real part that makes a difference in power would be the turbocharger and the engine tune. And I bet the engine tune has more to do with the power bump than the turbo.
Semantics; my point is that it isn't just a software difference, there are a number of different components as well, and not just easy bolt on stuff. I do agree and believe that the output is probably due to programming more than anything and the M1 can likely easily be reprogrammed to produce more power than the stock O1 but you can't "make" an M1 into an O1 without changing alot of hardware.

Cheers,
Dave

Last edited by DPelletier; 10-09-2019 at 06:33 PM..
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      10-09-2019, 06:37 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by upsidedownfunnel View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
GPF(Gas Particulate Filter) to blame?

Kinda ironic if so.
No, they're just different versions of the B58. The Euro M340i uses a version of the engine that is almost the same as the American M340i and American Z4 M40i. The Euro M340i makes about 375hp which is a direct result of the GPF required for European cars.

The B58 version in the Euro Z4 M40i and Supra are just different. I think it's mostly due to tuning, but there are some B58 versions with different parts. For instance, the earlier 320hp versions of the motor did not have the head-integrated exhaust manifold that more modern versions do.
I was thinking between Euro and US Z4..

IIRC the Supra B58 has mechanically restricted valve lift. I guess Euro z4 is same.
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      10-10-2019, 11:16 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPelletier View Post
The Supra's torque curve is almost identical to the Z4's up to about 4600rpm except it comes on a couple hundred rpm earlier. I read 3397 lbs for the Supra and 3443 for the Z4 so I don't think there is 200 lbs difference.

I agree that there is some software manipulation to get the torque so high for the hp; normally a 50hp difference would generate a much larger difference in times compared to what we have seen so far..... though the vast majority of comparisons have been with the neutered euro version of the Z4. It would seem that the version we get here has basic performance parity with the Supra despite the hp difference. I'll chalk it up to the Supra having similar torque figures, power coming on a bit earlier and the slight weight advantage. 0-60 may be similar, in the quarter the extra hp should show itself but I wouldn't expect much of a difference.


2 cents,
Dave
I thought the Supra was spooling quicker, too, but look again at the very beginning of each dyno run right near 2k rpm - looks like the Supra dyno run involved flooring the gas pedal a little earlier than the BMW run did so there probably isn't too much of a spool difference between the two engines if you floor it at exactly the same RPM.

Once the turbos actually begin to spool, the slope of Supra's curve is very slightly more steep but not nearly as much of a difference as those two particular dyno runs indicate since the Supra's run is "shifted to the left" due to starting from a lower RPM.
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      10-10-2019, 01:13 PM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Eddien123 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveSpy View Post
This can't be a surprise, it is the B58 after all lol
Really doesn't surprise me. Just makes me excited about two things.

1- how much power the s58 can/will make

2- how much power they're going to be able to squeeze out of the b58. I figure with it being in the Supra and with rumors of a manual Supra coming, the b58 will see the highest numbers it physically can. Maybe N54 and beyond?
Someone just built a Supra B58, expecting to put down 1000hp
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      10-31-2019, 12:07 PM   #36
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any update on the build and or any Engine tunes that might start becoming available?
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      10-31-2019, 12:58 PM   #37
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any update on the build and or any Engine tunes that might start becoming available?
E85 tuning is almost complete, Stage 2 turbo just arrived last week from Pure.
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