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      05-20-2018, 06:51 PM   #45
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The EU is fucked. The mass migration is destroying Western Europe. Meanwhile its unelected leadership was just celebrating the birthday of Karl Marx and saying how great he was. I mean that’s a slap in the face to all of us who lived under communist tyranny.
Why use half of a fact as the basis for an argument? Karl Marx does not have anything to do with "communist rule". Communism as you refer to it was a totalitarian form of government in which the elite used violence and repression to cement their hold on power. While done in the name of Marxism, none of those regimes actually have anything to do with the writings or teachings of Karl Marx.

I don't particularly endorse Karl Marx or think Marxism is the answer to anything, but I do have a serious addiction to fact (which makes me wholly unsuitable for BM). BTW, unless you're old enough to have been at least a teenager who emigrated from a Warsaw Pact country, Vietnam, China, or North Korea ... you never "lived under communist tyranny".
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      05-20-2018, 07:32 PM   #46
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      05-21-2018, 03:13 PM   #47
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Why use half of a fact as the basis for an argument? Karl Marx does not have anything to do with "communist rule". Communism as you refer to it was a totalitarian form of government in which the elite used violence and repression to cement their hold on power. While done in the name of Marxism, none of those regimes actually have anything to do with the writings or teachings of Karl Marx.

I don't particularly endorse Karl Marx or think Marxism is the answer to anything, but I do have a serious addiction to fact (which makes me wholly unsuitable for BM). BTW, unless you're old enough to have been at least a teenager who emigrated from a Warsaw Pact country, Vietnam, China, or North Korea ... you never "lived under communist tyranny".
You're not going to win any arguments here by defending Marx's legacy and especially not by dissociating Marx with communist ideology.

Your definition of Communism is incorrect.
Communism does NOT stem from the elite. Quite the opposite really. Communism involves the working class/peasants (collectively Proletariat) overthrowing (through blood/violence) landowners, merchants, the ruling class, and other people with "capital" which are collectively called the Bourgeoisie.
Of course, as soon as the "oppressed" Proletariat has overthrown the elite Bourgeois, they begin to suppress anyone else who is seen as even a small threat to their new privileged position. And then, through poor planning and management you have an economy which is virtually nonexistent or unsustainable, because every competent intellectual person has been killed or has fled. What a utopian society.

This is why we saw the execution of the Tsar and the Royal family in Russia, as well as complete eradication of the Church, as both were remnants of the old Elite class.
In China, similar story, everybody associated with the former Nationalist/KMT Government were to be executed or sent to camps for "re-education". This includes operators of big businesses, landowners, intellectuals, and bankers, which again, represented the old Elite. Most of them would flee to Taiwan or Hong Kong.

I suggest you read the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx (& his associate Engels).
Then read up on how these ideas inspired revolutionaries and young thinkers worldwide to pick-up on this "class-struggle" and to depose the Bourgeoisie.
The entire premise, the entire movement and its ideas, began with Marx.


Delta0311 and I don't always see eye-to-eye, but through my discussions with him here, he is from the Eastern Bloc and is definitely old enough to remember the ridiculous fantasy that the Communist propaganda machines force-fed it's people while they were, in fact, suffering and living in "shit-hole" conditions.
The fact that you would even try to challenge this is disrespectful on so many levels. Communist regimes across the world have ripped families apart, destroyed historical cultural heritage, induced famines and that's before we get to the brutal and systematic torture and murder of its own peoples.
One doesn't have to physically have lived under the regime to have felt its negative effects. Families, friends, even little things like studying historical relics/museums/structures, only to realize that they were desecrated for being too "bourgeois".

From the USSR, Communist China (People's Republic of China), to the Khmer Rouge (Democratic Kampuchea), to North Korea (Democratic People's Republic of Korea), to the GDR/East Germany (German Democratic Republic), to every other "people's" or "democratic" republic of the Iron Curtain.
All of the above are/were solely ruled by communist (sometimes stylized as "workers") parties which claim ideological descent through Marxist ideology in either the Party Charter, or the Constitution, or both.
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      05-21-2018, 03:20 PM   #48
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Well said. My CFO is from Bulgaria and is a newly minted US citizen after a process that lasted over a decade. He tells me all of the horror stories of the, "Workers' Paradises" and regularly comments how communism is the biggest confidence job ever perpetrated on the world's population and can scarcely believe that anyone still believes in its virtues.

Great post.
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      05-22-2018, 01:20 AM   #49
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Why use half of a fact as the basis for an argument? Karl Marx does not have anything to do with "communist rule". Communism as you refer to it was a totalitarian form of government in which the elite used violence and repression to cement their hold on power. While done in the name of Marxism, none of those regimes actually have anything to do with the writings or teachings of Karl Marx.

I don't particularly endorse Karl Marx or think Marxism is the answer to anything, but I do have a serious addiction to fact (which makes me wholly unsuitable for BM). BTW, unless you're old enough to have been at least a teenager who emigrated from a Warsaw Pact country, Vietnam, China, or North Korea ... you never "lived under communist tyranny".
You're not going to win any arguments here by defending Marx's legacy and especially not by dissociating Marx with communist ideology.

Your definition of Communism is incorrect.
Communism does NOT stem from the elite. Quite the opposite really. Communism involves the working class/peasants (collectively Proletariat) overthrowing (through blood/violence) landowners, merchants, the ruling class, and other people with "capital" which are collectively called the Bourgeoisie.
Of course, as soon as the "oppressed" Proletariat has overthrown the elite Bourgeois, they begin to suppress anyone else who is seen as even a small threat to their new privileged position. And then, through poor planning and management you have an economy which is virtually nonexistent or unsustainable, because every competent intellectual person has been killed or has fled. What a utopian society.

This is why we saw the execution of the Tsar and the Royal family in Russia, as well as complete eradication of the Church, as both were remnants of the old Elite class.
In China, similar story, everybody associated with the former Nationalist/KMT Government were to be executed or sent to camps for "re-education". This includes operators of big businesses, landowners, intellectuals, and bankers, which again, represented the old Elite. Most of them would flee to Taiwan or Hong Kong.

I suggest you read the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx (& his associate Engels).
Then read up on how these ideas inspired revolutionaries and young thinkers worldwide to pick-up on this "class-struggle" and to depose the Bourgeoisie.
The entire premise, the entire movement and its ideas, began with Marx.


Delta0311 and I don't always see eye-to-eye, but through my discussions with him here, he is from the Eastern Bloc and is definitely old enough to remember the ridiculous fantasy that the Communist propaganda machines force-fed it's people while they were, in fact, suffering and living in "shit-hole" conditions.
The fact that you would even try to challenge this is disrespectful on so many levels. Communist regimes across the world have ripped families apart, destroyed historical cultural heritage, induced famines and that's before we get to the brutal and systematic torture and murder of its own peoples.
One doesn't have to physically have lived under the regime to have felt its negative effects. Families, friends, even little things like studying historical relics/museums/structures, only to realize that they were desecrated for being too "bourgeois".

From the USSR, Communist China (People's Republic of China), to the Khmer Rouge (Democratic Kampuchea), to North Korea (Democratic People's Republic of Korea), to the GDR/East Germany (German Democratic Republic), to every other "people's" or "democratic" republic of the Iron Curtain.
All of the above are/were solely ruled by communist (sometimes stylized as "workers") parties which claim ideological descent through Marxist ideology in either the Party Charter, or the Constitution, or both.
And you know nothing about me so why jump to conclusions? My parents lived under both Nazi occupation and communist rule. I know full well the impacts and oppression of both and have every right to my comments. Don't assume I am disrespectful because you know nothing about my circumstances.

Communism as practiced by Soviet style governments had nothing to do with the writings of Marx.
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      05-22-2018, 01:58 AM   #50
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
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Originally Posted by Law View Post
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Why use half of a fact as the basis for an argument? Karl Marx does not have anything to do with "communist rule". Communism as you refer to it was a totalitarian form of government in which the elite used violence and repression to cement their hold on power. While done in the name of Marxism, none of those regimes actually have anything to do with the writings or teachings of Karl Marx.

I don't particularly endorse Karl Marx or think Marxism is the answer to anything, but I do have a serious addiction to fact (which makes me wholly unsuitable for BM). BTW, unless you're old enough to have been at least a teenager who emigrated from a Warsaw Pact country, Vietnam, China, or North Korea ... you never "lived under communist tyranny".
You're not going to win any arguments here by defending Marx's legacy and especially not by dissociating Marx with communist ideology.

Your definition of Communism is incorrect.
Communism does NOT stem from the elite. Quite the opposite really. Communism involves the working class/peasants (collectively Proletariat) overthrowing (through blood/violence) landowners, merchants, the ruling class, and other people with "capital" which are collectively called the Bourgeoisie.
Of course, as soon as the "oppressed" Proletariat has overthrown the elite Bourgeois, they begin to suppress anyone else who is seen as even a small threat to their new privileged position. And then, through poor planning and management you have an economy which is virtually nonexistent or unsustainable, because every competent intellectual person has been killed or has fled. What a utopian society.

This is why we saw the execution of the Tsar and the Royal family in Russia, as well as complete eradication of the Church, as both were remnants of the old Elite class.
In China, similar story, everybody associated with the former Nationalist/KMT Government were to be executed or sent to camps for "re-education". This includes operators of big businesses, landowners, intellectuals, and bankers, which again, represented the old Elite. Most of them would flee to Taiwan or Hong Kong.

I suggest you read the Communist Manifesto by Karl Marx (& his associate Engels).
Then read up on how these ideas inspired revolutionaries and young thinkers worldwide to pick-up on this "class-struggle" and to depose the Bourgeoisie.
The entire premise, the entire movement and its ideas, began with Marx.


Delta0311 and I don't always see eye-to-eye, but through my discussions with him here, he is from the Eastern Bloc and is definitely old enough to remember the ridiculous fantasy that the Communist propaganda machines force-fed it's people while they were, in fact, suffering and living in "shit-hole" conditions.
The fact that you would even try to challenge this is disrespectful on so many levels. Communist regimes across the world have ripped families apart, destroyed historical cultural heritage, induced famines and that's before we get to the brutal and systematic torture and murder of its own peoples.
One doesn't have to physically have lived under the regime to have felt its negative effects. Families, friends, even little things like studying historical relics/museums/structures, only to realize that they were desecrated for being too "bourgeois".

From the USSR, Communist China (People's Republic of China), to the Khmer Rouge (Democratic Kampuchea), to North Korea (Democratic People's Republic of Korea), to the GDR/East Germany (German Democratic Republic), to every other "people's" or "democratic" republic of the Iron Curtain.
All of the above are/were solely ruled by communist (sometimes stylized as "workers") parties which claim ideological descent through Marxist ideology in either the Party Charter, or the Constitution, or both.
And you know nothing about me so why jump to conclusions? My parents lived under both Nazi occupation and communist rule. I know full well the impacts and oppression of both and have every right to my comments. Don't assume I am disrespectful because you know nothing about my circumstances.

Communism as practiced by Soviet style governments had nothing to do with the writings of Marx.
I don't know you but your words say otherwise.
It is said that it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.
You're only being scrutinized for the ridiculous claims you made in your post.

The "Soviet style Communism" you speak of is more accurately known as "Marxism-Leninism." The only thing that makes it "Soviet" is that the Soviets under Lenin were the first to put Marx's ideas into practice and mature it into a political structure hence the hyphenated designation; but the roots stem from Marx's ideas of "class struggle" between the Proletariat and Bourgeoisie nonetheless.

Marx spoke about this struggle, commenting that "there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror."
Violence, terror, and bloodshed were inherent characteristics for any movement or government moving in the direction to establish his idea of utopia.
Marx himself spoke of the dictatorial regimes that are required for the execution of his vision.
"My own contribution was (1) to show that the existence of classes is merely bound up with certain historical phases in the development of production; (2) that the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat; [and] (3) that this dictatorship, itself, constitutes no more than a transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society"
Yeah, even the totalitarian dictatorships were a prerequisite.
Of course, to his last point, he was ultimately wrong, as he failed to acknowledge that in practice, concentration of such absolute power in the hands of so few in a "dictatorship of the proletariat" would yield anything but a "Classless Society". In fact, Marxist states would be doomed to be stuck in the "dictatorship" phase for the entire duration of their existence.

Marxism-Leninism's roots are still undeniably in Marxism. This is the academically accepted consensus.
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      05-22-2018, 10:28 AM   #51
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Originally Posted by Law View Post
I don't know you but your words say otherwise.
It is said that it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool than to speak and to remove all doubt.
You're only being scrutinized for the ridiculous claims you made in your post.

The "Soviet style Communism" you speak of is more accurately known as "Marxism-Leninism." The only thing that makes it "Soviet" is that the Soviets under Lenin were the first to put Marx's ideas into practice and mature it into a political structure hence the hyphenated designation; but the roots stem from Marx's ideas of "class struggle" between the Proletariat and Bourgeoisie nonetheless.

Marx spoke about this struggle, commenting that "there is only one way in which the murderous death agonies of the old society and the bloody birth throes of the new society can be shortened, simplified and concentrated, and that way is revolutionary terror."
Violence, terror, and bloodshed were inherent characteristics for any movement or government moving in the direction to establish his idea of utopia.
Marx himself spoke of the dictatorial regimes that are required for the execution of his vision.
"My own contribution was (1) to show that the existence of classes is merely bound up with certain historical phases in the development of production; (2) that the class struggle necessarily leads to the dictatorship of the proletariat; [and] (3) that this dictatorship, itself, constitutes no more than a transition to the abolition of all classes and to a classless society"
Yeah, even the totalitarian dictatorships were a prerequisite.
Of course, to his last point, he was ultimately wrong, as he failed to acknowledge that in practice, concentration of such absolute power in the hands of so few in a "dictatorship of the proletariat" would yield anything but a "Classless Society". In fact, Marxist states would be doomed to be stuck in the "dictatorship" phase for the entire duration of their existence.

Marxism-Leninism's roots are still undeniably in Marxism. This is the academically accepted consensus.*
Insulting my intelligence is no way to convince me of anything, I've read Marx, I studied this in University and know exactly what I'm saying. A "dictatorship of the proletariat" us not totalitarian rule by toralitarians. While there is no question that the Bolshevik revolution was inspired by Marx, the truth is that Lenin, Stalin, and Brezhnev were nothing more than despotic dictators who used the secret police (Cheka, NKVD, KGB) to opress the proletariat. That's got nothing to do with Marx. Soviet style dictators (including Tito, Caucescu, Mao, Kim) co-opted Marx's name and writings for propaganda purposes.

Nowhere did I defend any of them and in no way did I endorse Marx, but the idea that communism as practiced by Eastern Bloc countries was Marxism is just not true and you can't make it so by inferring I must be stupid so it's better that I be seen and not heard.
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      05-22-2018, 02:03 PM   #52
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Insulting my intelligence is no way to convince me of anything, I've read Marx, I studied this in University and know exactly what I'm saying. A "dictatorship of the proletariat" us not totalitarian rule by toralitarians. While there is no question that the Bolshevik revolution was inspired by Marx, the truth is that Lenin, Stalin, and Brezhnev were nothing more than despotic dictators who used the secret police (Cheka, NKVD, KGB) to opress the proletariat. That's got nothing to do with Marx. Soviet style dictators (including Tito, Caucescu, Mao, Kim) co-opted Marx's name and writings for propaganda purposes.

Nowhere did I defend any of them and in no way did I endorse Marx, but the idea that communism as practiced by Eastern Bloc countries was Marxism is just not true and you can't make it so by inferring I must be stupid so it's better that I be seen and not heard.
Because the end result of Marxism is always a totalitarian state. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. Now you can celebrate Marx all you want but when you are part of EU leadership and celebrating this guys bday then we have a problem. Since you are technically celebrating the ideology that led to the creation of one of the most fucked up governments in human history. Now if you lived in the Eastern Block, and I know you didn't, then you would note that damn near any public office you walked into would have a picture of Lenin and Marx hanging some where. So pardon us for being a little ticked off when we got the so-called EU leaders celebrating a guy who's ideology kept us living neck deep in shit for 50 years.
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      05-22-2018, 02:39 PM   #53
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Insulting my intelligence is no way to convince me of anything, I've read Marx, I studied this in University and know exactly what I'm saying. A "dictatorship of the proletariat" us not totalitarian rule by toralitarians. While there is no question that the Bolshevik revolution was inspired by Marx, the truth is that Lenin, Stalin, and Brezhnev were nothing more than despotic dictators who used the secret police (Cheka, NKVD, KGB) to opress the proletariat. That's got nothing to do with Marx. Soviet style dictators (including Tito, Caucescu, Mao, Kim) co-opted Marx's name and writings for propaganda purposes.

Nowhere did I defend any of them and in no way did I endorse Marx, but the idea that communism as practiced by Eastern Bloc countries was Marxism is just not true and you can't make it so by inferring I must be stupid so it's better that I be seen and not heard.
Gotta jump in here just to say you're right, I also have had to read his works.

Just to save you all from the agony of reading, here is a summary of all his books.

1. Point out problems.

2. Isolate a small group of the population as enemies.

3. Tell people that overthrowing the existing system for no matter what cause will set them to a more prosperous route.

4th point where how to fix shit is told might be in the next sequel. I look forward in reading it.
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How would you know this? Did mommy catch you jerking off to some Big Foot porn ?
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      05-22-2018, 08:42 PM   #54
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And another thing ....

I'm no Albionic scholar, but I'm pretty sure a royal wedding is supposed to include Pippa's ass. WTF Harry??

Jessica Mulroney just isn't the same:

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Two out of three....
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      05-23-2018, 02:23 AM   #55
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
Insulting my intelligence is no way to convince me of anything, I've read Marx, I studied this in University and know exactly what I'm saying. A "dictatorship of the proletariat" us not totalitarian rule by toralitarians. While there is no question that the Bolshevik revolution was inspired by Marx, the truth is that Lenin, Stalin, and Brezhnev were nothing more than despotic dictators who used the secret police (Cheka, NKVD, KGB) to opress the proletariat. That's got nothing to do with Marx. Soviet style dictators (including Tito, Caucescu, Mao, Kim) co-opted Marx's name and writings for propaganda purposes.

Nowhere did I defend any of them and in no way did I endorse Marx, but the idea that communism as practiced by Eastern Bloc countries was Marxism is just not true and you can't make it so by inferring I must be stupid so it's better that I be seen and not heard.
Intelligence?
You've provided nothing to back up your claims.
Reading Marx at University?
So have I and every other university student, scholar, journalist, Communist Party member, and political theorist in the Western World as well as the former Eastern Bloc and those in the PRC, DPRK, etc.
And the evidence overwhelmingly points to the opposite direction.
So just because you say it ain't so, doesn't make it factual all of a sudden.

The fact that not a single interpretation or implementation anywhere, Marxist-Leninist or otherwise, that stems from the writings of Marx has yielded any success during its experimentation is evidence that Marxist theory is idealistic at best.
Marxist theory has been tried and tested in the historical record, and it has universally failed.
It's one of those 19th century pseudo-scientific theories such as eugenics and racialism/scientific racism (racial supremacism), that has been largely disproved of any real scientific worth.
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      05-23-2018, 02:43 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by Lups View Post
Gotta jump in here just to say you're right, I also have had to read his works.

Just to save you all from the agony of reading, here is a summary of all his books.

1. Point out problems.

2. Isolate a small group of the population as enemies.

3. Tell people that overthrowing the existing system for no matter what cause will set them to a more prosperous route.

4th point where how to fix shit is told might be in the next sequel. I look forward in reading it.
The point is, #3 was a lie and has not led to more prosperity.
Overthrow the existing system only to replace it with a shittier one and hope for the best.

Anyways, I don't think we can agree on many things other than how the Finnish language has way too many nouns for "dog" and that you loved Peter very much.

But I'll take that
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      05-23-2018, 08:46 AM   #57
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The point is, #3 was a lie and has not led to more prosperity.
Overthrow the existing system only to replace it with a shittier one and hope for the best.

Anyways, I don't think we can agree on many things other than how the Finnish language has way too many nouns for "dog" and that you loved Peter very much.

But I'll take that
Oh it was indeed! Who would've thought that bad shit happens when a country collapses! The funniest part of Marx is that he keeps listing shit that should be changed and had zero ideas how to. My old philosophy teacher made us read his works to cure us from populism.

My Peter was absolutely magnificent. You try not to love something so big and purring. Some things you can't love too much!
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      05-23-2018, 12:48 PM   #58
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Oh it was indeed! Who would've thought that bad shit happens when a country collapses! The funniest part of Marx is that he keeps listing shit that should be changed and had zero ideas how to. My old philosophy teacher made us read his works to cure us from populism.

My Peter was absolutely magnificent. You try not to love something so big and purring. Some things you can't love too much!
Ok. Ok. Thats good to know about Marx...but you're Peter was absolutely magnificent and it purrs...what are we talking about here?
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      05-23-2018, 01:19 PM   #59
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The point is, #3 was a lie and has not led to more prosperity.
Overthrow the existing system only to replace it with a shittier one and hope for the best.

Anyways, I don't think we can agree on many things other than how the Finnish language has way too many nouns for "dog" and that you loved Peter very much.

But I'll take that
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      05-23-2018, 01:24 PM   #60
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Ok. Ok. Thats good to know about Marx...but you're Peter was absolutely magnificent and it purrs...what are we talking about here?
I have been asked not to talk about cars for a reason! I also got the idea a few days ago that I should never again explain why I've banned some beverage or a tool or a location from any future use or visits.
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How would you know this? Did mommy catch you jerking off to some Big Foot porn ?
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      05-23-2018, 03:50 PM   #61
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Because the end result of Marxism is always a totalitarian state. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. Now you can celebrate Marx all you want but when you are part of EU leadership and celebrating this guys bday then we have a problem. Since you are technically celebrating the ideology that led to the creation of one of the most fucked up governments in human history. Now if you lived in the Eastern Block, and I know you didn't, then you would note that damn near any public office you walked into would have a picture of Lenin and Marx hanging some where. So pardon us for being a little ticked off when we got the so-called EU leaders celebrating a guy who's ideology kept us living neck deep in shit for 50 years.
I was fortunate to never have lived in an Eastern Bloc country (my parents did and my older brother was born there) so I do accept that I lack the personal experience that you seem to have.

That said, you've kind of posted two slightly different thoughts. The first post suggested that the writings of Karl Marx (and Friedrich Engels) are to be discredited by the actions of totalitarians in co-opting "communist" ideals. That is the argument I've challenged because it doesn't pass any type of analytical or historical test (notwithstanding the tiresome efforts of Law in that respect). Simply put, Marx and Engels are not liable or responsible for the atrocities committed by Lenin, Stalin, Honecker, Brezhnev, Ceaușescu, Tito, Mao, Ho, Kim, Kádár, and others. These were (are) dictatorships of a small group of elites that suppress and oppress through violence and fear. Marx and Engels never taught, nor advocated, anything of the sort.

However, in your reply to my post, you make a slightly different point: that honouring Marx is disrespectful and insensitive to the suffering of millions in the name of Marxism. In that, you get no argument.
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      05-23-2018, 11:26 PM   #62
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I have been asked not to talk about cars for a reason! I also got the idea a few days ago that I should never again explain why I've banned some beverage or a tool or a location from any future use or visits.


Well, that certainly clears things up for me.

BTW...have you changed your meds lately??
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      05-24-2018, 09:22 AM   #63
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Because the end result of Marxism is always a totalitarian state. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to figure that out. Now you can celebrate Marx all you want but when you are part of EU leadership and celebrating this guys bday then we have a problem. Since you are technically celebrating the ideology that led to the creation of one of the most fucked up governments in human history. Now if you lived in the Eastern Block, and I know you didn't, then you would note that damn near any public office you walked into would have a picture of Lenin and Marx hanging some where. So pardon us for being a little ticked off when we got the so-called EU leaders celebrating a guy who's ideology kept us living neck deep in shit for 50 years.
I was fortunate to never have lived in an Eastern Bloc country (my parents did and my older brother was born there) so I do accept that I lack the personal experience that you seem to have.

That said, you've kind of posted two slightly different thoughts. The first post suggested that the writings of Karl Marx (and Friedrich Engels) are to be discredited by the actions of totalitarians in co-opting "communist" ideals. That is the argument I've challenged because it doesn't pass any type of analytical or historical test (notwithstanding the tiresome efforts of Law in that respect). Simply put, Marx and Engels are not liable or responsible for the atrocities committed by Lenin, Stalin, Honecker, Brezhnev, Ceaușescu, Tito, Mao, Ho, Kim, Kádár, and others. These were (are) dictatorships of a small group of elites that suppress and oppress through violence and fear. Marx and Engels never taught, nor advocated, anything of the sort.

However, in your reply to my post, you make a slightly different point: that honouring Marx is disrespectful and insensitive to the suffering of millions in the name of Marxism. In that, you get no argument.
Marx did let his son starve to death, because he was so consumed with his philosophy that he refused to work and provide for his family. That says a lot.
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      05-24-2018, 09:55 AM   #64
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Originally Posted by JohnnyCanuck View Post
I was fortunate to never have lived in an Eastern Bloc country (my parents did and my older brother was born there) so I do accept that I lack the personal experience that you seem to have.

That said, you've kind of posted two slightly different thoughts. The first post suggested that the writings of Karl Marx (and Friedrich Engels) are to be discredited by the actions of totalitarians in co-opting "communist" ideals. That is the argument I've challenged because it doesn't pass any type of analytical or historical test (notwithstanding the tiresome efforts of Law in that respect). Simply put, Marx and Engels are not liable or responsible for the atrocities committed by Lenin, Stalin, Honecker, Brezhnev, Ceaușescu, Tito, Mao, Ho, Kim, Kádár, and others. These were (are) dictatorships of a small group of elites that suppress and oppress through violence and fear. Marx and Engels never taught, nor advocated, anything of the sort.

However, in your reply to my post, you make a slightly different point: that honouring Marx is disrespectful and insensitive to the suffering of millions in the name of Marxism. In that, you get no argument.
Under Marxism the state provides so in the end a strongman will always wind up taking over; so end result is always a totalitarian state.

I agree in regards that if you want to honor Marx you have every right to do so. But the fact that the LEADRSHIP of the EU is willing to honor a man whos ideology deeply and negatively affected millions of its citizens then yes you have a problem. Now lets reverse roles here and imagine that Austrian parliment decides to celebrate Hitler's Bday on every 4/20. I'm sure your tune would be quite different if that was to go down.
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      05-24-2018, 09:58 AM   #65
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Marx did let his son starve to death, because he was so consumed with his philosophy that he refused to work and provide for his family. That says a lot.
Marx never worked a day in his life. That should also say a lot. A guy talking about a workers paradise who never did a day of labor. That says a lot right there. This is kind of like taking marksmanship advice from a guy who never fired a firearm but read a few books on the subject.
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      05-24-2018, 10:25 AM   #66
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Well, that certainly clears things up for me.

BTW...have you changed your meds lately??
Is she finally on some meds?
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