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      10-16-2019, 07:05 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
Yes, you will shine with your summer when is dry and wonderful and you will shine in your winter when the snow is there. But for everything in between, the all season is the one that will handle everything very well.
Summer tires beat all season tires in every handling situation (accelerating/braking/turns), wet or dry when the temperatures are above 40F.

All season are a compromise between summer/winter tires and master of none. Yes for those that can't or don't want to run 2 sets of wheels/tires they'll make due. For myself (in Seattle) I'd rather take my chances with the unlikely snow surprise. In Seattle we don't get surprise snowfall, we'd see the possibility of light snow probably a week or more in advance but I realize parts of Canada don't have that luxury.

However, more importantly defensive driving can only marginally protect you from dumb drivers losing control of their vehicle or loads where emergency situations on the road might require immediate high speed reactions on a freeway for which a Summer tire would give me an advantage probably 99% of the time.

I agree I don't need a minimum wage tire tech scratching up wheels, so I'd change my 2nd set which I store on a tire rack in the garage. For those that might not have a garage, a stack of tires could easily fit in a small closet.

Last edited by grocerylist; 10-16-2019 at 07:06 PM.. Reason: word
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      10-16-2019, 09:28 PM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
No, is not. Know your car and your limits and you will do just fine. A good All Season is quite performant.
So all independent tests are wrong and you are right

Ignorance is bliss I guess.
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      10-17-2019, 04:07 PM   #47
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I use Nokian winters in the winter and dedicated summers the rest of the year on my Mercedes SUV - the BMW gets parked in the winter. I store the off season tires in my shop and do the re+re myself on my car lift.

To each their own but in our conditions (snowy winter passes with lots of corners) I won't run anything but a dedicated winter.

2 cents,
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      10-18-2019, 04:22 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CanAutM3 View Post
So all independent tests are wrong and you are right

Ignorance is bliss I guess.
There are millions of owners who buy those tires and most of them, re-buy them(see reviews). And almost all share the same thoughts and have similar requests/expectations.
There are also a lot of manufacturers that are making these tires. Obviously, there is a certain environment where they are in demand. If they will not be good, nobody will buy them and manufacturers will not make them. Also, if they were not good their specific technical specifications (like speed rating / braking, etc.) will be poor' yet, they are not.
I am also tired of the all-season / all-weather confusion.There a lot of guys in here using the same all-weather tires; I just guess they don't want to have a futile conversation. Terrible idea from my part to have this conversation anyway....

So in your opinion, everyone who buys them is an ignorant.
I quite enjoyed our conversation until you used an uncalled for and arrogant term. Sorry, I will not go that low.
Enjoy your wheel swap.
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      10-20-2019, 07:00 AM   #49
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i live in the midwest. all seasons is what i put on my civic and it does fine. my friend has all seasons on his m4 and lives in chicago (pilot sport as3). I had these same tires on my f30 rwd 335. Yes you lose some summer time performance but its not major... you're not going to be blowing the tires off in 2nd gear or anything like that. You get like 90% of the super sport performance, but you gain the ability to drive confidently in the snow and freezing temps... which the pilot super sport isn't going to give you.

yes if you plan on driving in blizzards or 6-8+ inches of snow you probably want a dedicated snow tire. At that point your work is probably going to be cancelled anyway.
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      10-21-2019, 10:20 AM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by grocerylist View Post
Summer tires beat all season tires in every handling situation (accelerating/braking/turns), wet or dry when the temperatures are above 40F.
Many high-performance summer tires trade the ability to channel water for the maximal on-road footprint, e.g. Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2, Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R. Some even have disclaimers stating they will not perform well in rain conditions.
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      10-21-2019, 12:22 PM   #51
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Interesting Comparison

Based on this video, it seems that ALL-WEATHERS (European all-seasons) are just as good as WINTER tires in winter conditions. While also as good as ALL-SEASONS (American all-seasons) in warmer conditions.

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      10-22-2019, 04:06 AM   #52
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I'm guessing 22m or 72ft is not big difference on stopping.
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      10-22-2019, 08:52 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Outrage View Post
Many high-performance summer tires trade the ability to channel water for the maximal on-road footprint, e.g. Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2, Pirelli P Zero Trofeo R. Some even have disclaimers stating they will not perform well in rain conditions.
As far as I know the tires you mention are track focused tires. I doubt many people daily those.
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      10-24-2019, 03:14 PM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tracus View Post
There are millions of owners who buy those tires and most of them, re-buy them(see reviews). And almost all share the same thoughts and have similar requests/expectations.
There are also a lot of manufacturers that are making these tires. Obviously, there is a certain environment where they are in demand. If they will not be good, nobody will buy them and manufacturers will not make them. Also, if they were not good their specific technical specifications (like speed rating / braking, etc.) will be poor' yet, they are not.
I am also tired of the all-season / all-weather confusion.There a lot of guys in here using the same all-weather tires; I just guess they don't want to have a futile conversation. Terrible idea from my part to have this conversation anyway....

So in your opinion, everyone who buys them is an ignorant.
I quite enjoyed our conversation until you used an uncalled for and arrogant term. Sorry, I will not go that low.
Enjoy your wheel swap.
Hi Tracus,
Thanks for sharing your experience.
it's certainly eye-opening for me seeing that all-weather tires might perform adequately in winter conditions (living in Canada as well, I'm used to have a dedicated set of winter tires/rims on my current and previous cars).
Perhaps I missed it in this thread but what all weather tires do you use?
is it Continental ExtremeContact DWS 06 ?
also are there any other all-weather tires you personally had experience with?

i didn't know there was a difference between all-season and all-weather tires and all-weather tires might be something i'll look into on my future cars. (my current car is RWD)
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      10-24-2019, 08:00 PM   #55
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I'll just leave this here.

As was said before, these videos are made by people that sell tires. There's a reason they always do it on an ice rink or on top of a mountain vs. cold pavement. If you live somewhere where it doesn't snow, it just gets cold, then winter tires are 100% overkill. A tire like Continental DWS is the best of both worlds with it's blocky section. But I have never had any confidence driving on winter tires on cold, dry roads. Everything feels loose, spongy, and unresponsive. Not a good look for those of us in the south/midwest.

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      10-27-2019, 04:50 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OrcaPod View Post
Hi Tracus,
Thanks for sharing your experience.
it's certainly eye-opening for me seeing that all-weather tires might perform adequately in winter conditions (living in Canada as well, I'm used to have a dedicated set of winter tires/rims on my current and previous cars).
Perhaps I missed it in this thread but what all weather tires do you use?
is it Continental ExtremeContact DWS 06 ?
also are there any other all-weather tires you personally had experience with?

i didn't know there was a difference between all-season and all-weather tires and all-weather tires might be something i'll look into on my future cars. (my current car is RWD)
Hello OrcaPod,

One of our DD is 2012 X1 xDrive. We love the car so much that it will stay with us. I have switched from runflats to normal tire two months after purchasing the vehicle. Won’t go in that debacle but I am happy since. Due to several reasons (explained in the comments in this thread) i decided to go for the all weather.

All season are tires made of a softer compound (able to still run on some light snow) with mix of patterns that can handle both summer and winter. But, they are very generic, and for that reason are not very good in snow, and may be unusable in bigger snow. Yet, I use even those succesfully.

All weather are a different kind of tires, as half of the pattern is a summer one, and half is winter. (see picture ). They can handle both seasons in a respectful manner if you understand their limits. They will handle very well summer and very well winter, including snowy winters. Their braking distance will not be as good as a dedicated tire (yet they are getting really close), but they are engineered to run well in both conditions. And they get better in time.

Is like having different braking pads: some are very grippy and with an aggressive bite; but that comes with a lot of brake dust. Some, don’t bite as hard but they are more forgiven. Is a matter to getting use to them, and after that you will automatically adapt to your new setting.
Same with these tires. Like a colleague said earlier, there is no 100% confidence in winter driving anyway.

I am running Continental DWS 06, I am on my third set and I am doing wonderful. I always replace them before they reach 60% thread left. It handles winter storms and blizzards and all the snow like a champ. In summer they have been very good as well, as many times I am running at high speeds, pushing the odometer on its last quarter.

An all weather tire can work fine and be very ok on a AWD vehicle, or even a FWD. The AWD system is a big plus and compensates the lack of a full dedicated winter tire. The tires got better, and BMW RWD does not really need that bag of sand in the trunk anymore. But, That being said, even with dedicated winter on RWD, I have seen problems and an all-weather might be just an acceptable compromise. Yet, it depends on the conditions you are driving, the tire you pick and your experience as a driver. I used to own an AWD Jaguar that runned on all season Michelin MXV4 and -in all 8 years with me- I never got an issue. It was my DD but was a Haldex AWD.
I am driving in some really hard snows sometimes, so my RWD is just a summer car. This is why being in Canada my DD is an XDrive. For me, AWD and an excellent all weather are very good and I never got stuck.

Some, claim that some new all weather can beat dedicated winter. Well, some very good all weather can be indeed better that a shitty winter tire.

https://www.consumerreports.org/vide...me-snow-tires/

You can try it but make sure you buy a very good all weather. Nokian WR G4 is an excellent tire, yet was not available for my dimensions.

Hope it helps.
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Last edited by Tracus; 10-29-2019 at 03:03 PM..
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      10-29-2019, 03:16 AM   #57
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Hey, doesn't this guy drives a Tesla?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=TJsV2ORMsms
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      10-29-2019, 03:43 AM   #58
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honestly an all season is useless to me at least on the f8x. I can drive with my summers in cold like a granny(DANGEROUS if you have a lead foot). mostly drive the beater. If there is snow just forget it. need SNOW tires.

now the 428xi in my household probably benefits from all seasons; cause who gives a rats ass about a 428xi performance in the summer.
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      10-31-2019, 05:01 PM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
I'm 100% sure winter tire is better than all season though for you guys who lives in big city (i.e. you can't just put your tire in garage) what's your alternative. BMW Manhattan charge $800 just for storing tire for one year...
Same exact issue here. I live in Manhattan too, though I refuse to go to the BMW Manhattan dealership (long story). Instead it's definitely worth the ride to go up to BMW of Greenwich (Penske owned). Great service, less gouging and no upsell pressure as of yet. My purchasing experience there was great too.
Anyway, I just contacted them for recommendation on tires for winter. I specifically said I want quotes for Winter and All Season run flats and they came back with 1 recommendation - Pirelli Cinturato P7 all season run flats 225/40R18 for all 4 wheels.

Anyone familiar with these or have any thoughts?


I can share why I won't back go to BMW Manhattan if anyone is remotely interested.
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      10-31-2019, 08:03 PM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue_M235i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
I'm 100% sure winter tire is better than all season though for you guys who lives in big city (i.e. you can't just put your tire in garage) what's your alternative. BMW Manhattan charge $800 just for storing tire for one year...
Same exact issue here. I live in Manhattan too, though I refuse to go to the BMW Manhattan dealership (long story). Instead it's definitely worth the ride to go up to BMW of Greenwich (Penske owned). Great service, less gouging and no upsell pressure as of yet. My purchasing experience there was great too.
Anyway, I just contacted them for recommendation on tires for winter. I specifically said I want quotes for Winter and All Season run flats and they came back with 1 recommendation - Pirelli Cinturato P7 all season run flats 225/40R18 for all 4 wheels.

Anyone familiar with these or have any thoughts?


I can share why I won't back go to BMW Manhattan if anyone is remotely interested.
Interesting about your experience I go to BMW Manhattan for covinence, they also gave a me a pretty good deal on my 2019 540 (though that's after talk to 3 dealers and ask BMW Manhattan to match and do better, they were not willing to move on order car initially)
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      11-01-2019, 08:43 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
Interesting about your experience I go to BMW Manhattan for covinence, they also gave a me a pretty good deal on my 2019 540 (though that's after talk to 3 dealers and ask BMW Manhattan to match and do better, they were not willing to move on order car initially)
I don't know about the sales team over there. The service team though...
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      11-01-2019, 12:38 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by Blue_M235i View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by clee1982 View Post
Interesting about your experience I go to BMW Manhattan for covinence, they also gave a me a pretty good deal on my 2019 540 (though that's after talk to 3 dealers and ask BMW Manhattan to match and do better, they were not willing to move on order car initially)
I don't know about the sales team over there. The service team though...
I had only to go to service only once so far (rear camera software update recall), they keep change stories about whether I can do it on Saturday then once drop off story went from pick up same day to Monday, had to call the guy called me about the recall to ensure I could pick up same day, though other than that I suppose it was fine...
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      11-01-2019, 02:21 PM   #63
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I had only to go to service only once so far (rear camera software update recall), they keep change stories about whether I can do it on Saturday then once drop off story went from pick up same day to Monday, had to call the guy called me about the recall to ensure I could pick up same day, though other than that I suppose it was fine...
Long response here - so for those not interested in my service center experience, please skip this post. Or skip to the 'meat' of it in Blue.

clee1982This was my experience with my Z3 convertible at Manhattan - I filled out their survey with very detailed responses and received a generic automated reply from the center operator asking if I was contacted by the service team and if my issue had been resolved. I replied to him and corporate with the following email :

A quick background on myself - I am a Program Manager at a Fortune 100 company. I'm responsible for Process/Program improvements for Customer Service/Customer Experience, so I have a unique perspective as a customer and a care owner.

No, I haven't been contacted. All in all I think the lack of responsiveness and follow-up by BMW of Manhattan's Service Dept. is awful.
I will outline my experience in a moment, but wanted to mention as I look at your corporate website 'BMW Introduction' something that is sorely lacking on where it has 'its sights set'. " the BMW Group has its sights set firmly on the premium sector of the international automobile market. To achieve its aims, the company knows how to deploy its strengths with an efficiency that is unmatched in the automotive industry. From research and development to sales and marketing, BMW Group is committed to the very highest in quality for all its products and services."
No mention of customer service anywhere. Does BMW group also aim to provide a superior customer experience?

I understand your 'Service' department is related to servicing a vehicle and not the customer, but small changes in customer service could really make a BMW service customer a lifetime customer.

I'm going to set forth what the 'Customer Experience' is for someone bringing in a car to BMW Manhattan for service from my experience.

I called BMW to have an annual service and inspection done on my car as I do every year. Normally I'm able to get my car in within a couple of days for service, but in this case the service department was really busy and the earliest available slot was just over a week away. No problem.

I brought in the car and spoke with Mike Solomon, my Service Assistant. I've been working with Mike for years, so the usual chit-chat about how the car is running, the 'service engine light', and the light hearted conversation about his kids and what-not.
I've always liked Mike. Even though our BMW is a 2001, we keep it in great condition and only 35K miles keeps it running like new. Mike always made me feel good about our vehicle and has never pressured me into purchasing additional services. He offered up some things in the past, but was honest about what was necessary or not. I've learned to trust him through the years.

Next I authorized drop-off at my garage, provided a pre-authorization to run my Amex Card for any charges, and I'm told the car won't be completed and delivered until Friday. I had absolutely no problem with that, and was actually very happy with the prospect of having my vehicle delivered back to my garage. That is a new service.

Friday evening I realize I haven't heard from anyone about the status of my car. I call my garage and they tell me the car hasn't been delivered. I call BMW and no one has any idea. The Service Center is closed for the day, but I can call in at 8AM to get a status.
This is where things go wrong.

First of all, Sat morning I had plans. I was planning on using my car at 7AM, but knowing that wasn't possible now I changed my plans. I called BMW at 8 AM on Saturday morning. It took me 2 hours to get anyone on the phone who could give me a status of my car.
2 hours!!! At one point one of the women who answered the phone told me I have to call back as the service center doesn't open until 7:30AM. I had to laugh because it was already 8:15AM. I have her name, but this is about overall experience and not just one person, so I'm not going to provide names unless you really want them.
So, around 10:15AM I got a call back telling me I can come pick up my car… it's ready.

Just so we're tracking - the car was supposed to be delivered on Friday and now I'm being told I can pick it up on Saturday.

Recap:
Issue 1 - no call about my vehicle status on Friday.
Issue 2 - car wasn't delivered on Friday.
Issue 3 - when I rang BMW I couldn't get a status on my vehicle until Saturday morning.
Issue 4 - when I rang Saturday morning I had to waste 2 hours of my time to finally get someone to tell me the status of my vehicle.
Issue 5 - I have to pick-up my car instead of being delivered.

Let's move on...

I walk over to BMW and arrive around 2:00. I have a bill of $289 for services rendered… so I tell them to just use the Amex they have preauthorized. Well, apparently they don't have the pre-authorization. The response I get is 'it's probably locked away in Mike's desk drawer and he's on vacation'. I give them another credit card and pay.
I get to my vehicle and look over the receipt and find out the work wasn't even completed. The only work done was the 'Spring Checkup' but the Inspection wasn't competed and the Check Engine light was still on. The receipt says (among other things)
Check Engine Light Is On - Check and Report - 'ADDITIONAL WORK ADVISED - REPAIRS OR SERVICE DECLINED'. (See invoice 765401 or I can scan you a copy).
"Car Needs Coils" "Customer Needed Car Picked up Car No Work". NY State Inspection "No Work Performed" "No Work Performed Customer Needed The Car".

Now I was furious. I just went through issues 1-5 listed above and now I paid $289 for an oil change (since no work was done). WHEN was I ADVISED and WHEN did I DECLINE the work? I wasn't ever contacted.
I work from home and have 3 phone numbers on file. I missed no calls from BMW and have no messages. I never 'DECLINED' the work. That would require actually speaking to someone.

I went back into the payment area and asked for an explanation. Steve was there and explained that someone called me and that the engine coils were bad on my car and needed to be replaced. I told him no-one called me, and if work was advised I would have done it. He said they left me a message. I told him there was no missed call and no message, and that still doesn't mean I declined the work.
He asked me to take my car and he'll set up an appointment for me to bring it back on Monday. I refused. The car was already there, why would I take it home for a day and then turn around and bring it back? I left the car there.

Monday Morning I call for a manager. I speak to Joe Rocker. I explain the scenario - he apologizes and then puts me on with Steve Mandala who told me the first diagnosis regarding the engine coils was an error and that was someone else's vehicle.
This leads me to believe the decline of work was probably related to that customer as well.
Then he tells me I need an exhaust cam sensor and front control arm bushings because mine have rot. I accept all the work, but make sure they don't charge me a second time for putting the car on the lift. This is granted.

No one calls me back with a status. I call BMW at 4:00 on Monday afternoon and find out everyone has left for the day and I can't get a status on my vehicle. Just for good measure I call my garage and the car hasn't been delivered.
I left a message to please be contacted in the morning.

Tuesday I get a call back and am told the car is ready and will be dropped off at my garage, I just need to provide a credit card number for the charges…. again. I explained I gave them an authorization already, but again I'm told they have no idea where it is.
Nice to know my Amex card info is floating around at the BMW dealership with a signed authorization…
I provided the details - Steve gives me 10% off for my troubles $1400 paid and that's how the story ends.

I'm surprised I never got a call from someone proactively on status of my vehicle. No one called me even when they knew I had expressed dissatisfaction. No one followed up with me to see if everything is OK now and to make sure I was satisfied after the continued debacles.

Let's recap the next set of issues:
Issue 6 - lost credit card authorization
Issue 7 - work was not completed
Issue 8 - fictitious reason for work not being completed - because the 'Customer Declined Work'.
Issue 9 - wrong issue diagnosis provided
Issue 10 - no follow up/status update on work being done - 4PM and no one available to provide status.

And now here I am spending way to much time writing a letter to BMW because I like to believe somewhere someone at your company is actually reading this and is going to act on making positive changes to the way you service your customers.

I know when I go to a BMW service center that I am paying a premium. I would expect with that premium would be a higher level of customer service. Without it… you're just a garage, in which case I can go to any garage for cheaper.
When asked if I would recommend BMW to my friends and family I had to laugh. If my friends/family asked I'd probably post this story as a blog and share it with them.

I really do hope someone reads this and takes it seriously. Some of the items listed may seem trivial, but when compounded with the other missteps it's just a bad customer experience.

Sincerely,
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      11-01-2019, 06:54 PM   #64
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That sounds awful maybe I should go elsewhere in queens at least that would be equally easy within uber ride or subway
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      11-03-2019, 06:28 AM   #65
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So does a RWD car with snow tires handles better than AWD car with all season tires in winter?

So basically in the dry, regardless of temperature, the answer is NO but in the snow it's significantly better. Winter tires are only good in snow and ice.

Unless you live up in the great white north, wouldn't AWD with all season tires be more suitable for all around performance
since the road surface isn't always going to be snowy or icy?
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      11-03-2019, 07:38 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
So does a RWD car with snow tires handles better than AWD car with all season tires in winter?

So basically in the dry, regardless of temperature, the answer is NO but in the snow it's significantly better. Winter tires are only good in snow and ice.

Unless you live up in the great white north, wouldn't AWD with all season tires be more suitable for all around performance
since the road surface isn't always going to be snowy or icy?
All-seasons + any amount of driven wheels is better on cold pavement. Here it only snows 1-2 times per year, and when it does snow the roads are clear within 24 hrs. Highways are cleared within 3 hours. so it is absolutely not worth it to buy snow tires.
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As long as 3-pedals are an option, I will exercise my right to suffer the handicap and indignity of slower shifts and reaction times.
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