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      10-16-2019, 06:41 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post




He's where I ultimately want to be, even though I would lose any patrol related pay increases if I go to the detective bureau. There's always a trade off I suppose.
How long are you on the job? He became a Sgt pretty quick, within a few years. Did his time on the street, did task force and IAB which he hated. He protested by refusing to cut his hair until they transferred him. He looked like a wild man. Anyway, he is now going into his 35th year and wants to stay until he reaches mandatory retirement which is another 9 years. It’s a good thing he’s a big guy and has long arms. There isn’t much room left on his sleeve for all the slash bars for each 5 years. We’re up to 7.
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      10-16-2019, 07:17 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post




He's where I ultimately want to be, even though I would lose any patrol related pay increases if I go to the detective bureau. There's always a trade off I suppose.
How long are you on the job? He became a Sgt pretty quick, within a few years. Did his time on the street, did task force and IAB which he hated. He protested by refusing to cut his hair until they transferred him. He looked like a wild man. Anyway, he is now going into his 35th year and wants to stay until he reaches mandatory retirement which is another 9 years. It’s a good thing he’s a big guy and has long arms. There isn’t much room left on his sleeve for all the slash bars for each 5 years. We’re up to 7.
I was at my first department 7 years and I've been at my current department a little over 2 years. When I switched I had to work custody first - hence my jail experience - and now I'm back on patrol. After a few years on patrol I'll move to detective bureau/SVU.
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      10-16-2019, 08:08 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I was at my first department 7 years and I've been at my current department a little over 2 years. When I switched I had to work custody first - hence my jail experience - and now I'm back on patrol. After a few years on patrol I'll move to detective bureau/SVU.


Thank you!

I left law enforcement in 2004 after almost 10 years in So Florida. Back then...people STILL liked LEO’s as it was still the after years of 9/11.

I can’t imagine how difficult you have it now.

STAY SAFE
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      10-16-2019, 08:37 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by scostu View Post


Thank you!

I left law enforcement in 2004 after almost 10 years in So Florida. Back then...people STILL liked LEO’s as it was still the after years of 9/11.

I can’t imagine how difficult you have it now.

STAY SAFE

Thank you for your service while 10-8 Sir! It's definitely a different ball game out there now. The level of disrespect is beyond comprehension. I look at what's happening with the NYPD and it pisses me off. In custody, things changed a lot when cameras were implemented beginning in 2012-ish; inmates feel like they run the jails now (...and to some degree they do because we have to baby them; everything is a mental health crisis to them).

Last edited by Sedan_Clan; 10-16-2019 at 08:50 PM..
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      10-17-2019, 10:24 AM   #71
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Wait, I thought jail was supposed to be PUNISHMENT ???
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      10-17-2019, 12:03 PM   #72
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Before I ask anything I would like for you to know that I am NOT anti LEO in any way shape or form but I really am anti “Bad Cop”. (A tid bit of my background) I have been working with the federal government (army) for going on 30 years and for a bit of that time I was a civil liberties officer for my organization. I was dumbfounded on the level of my soldiers and civilians lack of constitutional knowledge even though they took an oath to protect and defend The Constitution.
So here is my question, have you read the constitution and bill of rights?
I have used many YouTube videos of officers violating individual rights for training, because they just don’t know what rights people have and that saddens me.
Also do you know the difference between your rights vs authorities?
Example: you “may” have the authority to identify someone but many officers believe they have the “right” to do so.
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      10-17-2019, 12:13 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I was at my first department 7 years and I've been at my current department a little over 2 years. When I switched I had to work custody first - hence my jail experience - and now I'm back on patrol. After a few years on patrol I'll move to detective bureau/SVU.
My brother did the mandatory jail service as well....some of the stories I heard were crazy. He's on patrol now...and I still hear crazy stories.

All my Dads side of the family went into LE, and all my Moms side were career military.

It's like a family affair in our little area. I think I'm the only one who didn't get into it although my daughter did marry the son of our local county's SWAT team leader...and it so happens that his Uncle is the County Coroner.

I have nothing but respect for you guys. I used to teach self-defense classes for a lot of the LE in our area...well at least the ones who wanted to take their training a little farther.
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      10-17-2019, 12:53 PM   #74
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Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
I was dumbfounded on the level of my soldiers and civilians lack of constitutional knowledge even though they took an oath to protect and defend The Constitution.
here's an easy rule of thumb to follow: don't talk to the cops no offense sedan
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      10-17-2019, 01:28 PM   #75
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Wait, I thought jail was supposed to be PUNISHMENT ???
While I didn't care for custody, there is merit to requiring deputies to work the jails before going to patrol....IF they desired to go to patrol. The reason why I say that is because criminals are animals. If you've grown up sheltered, never been in a fight, know nothing about how gang members act and how the gangs operate, nor how to "talk" to a gang member, jail is going to be trial by fire. A gang member can size up somebody who's green in about 10 seconds, and within those 10 seconds decide if you're the guy they respect or the guy they assault. People have quit during their first week working custody. No gun, no baton, etc......only OC spray, cuffs, maybe a taser.......and your ability to de-escalate using your gift of gab. If shit hits the fan - and it will - you better be able to handle business should personal weapons need to be employed (...e.g. hands/feet/fists ). Everybody thinks they can fight until they are punched in the face, and if you've never been punched in the face or had somebody actively resist you and attempt to really hurt you, that's going to be a serious reality check the moment you're in some inmate's (...or gang member you've pulled over who doesn't care that you have a uniform on, and wants to take his chances and try to kill a cop) crosshairs. You are ALWAYS outnumbered in a jail facility; often 3 deputies to 40+ inmates. If you're scared, they'll know it. Additionally, criminals love to talk. They'll tell you how they choose victims, how they commit crimes, how they find women to sex traffic, etc. You learn so much. Custody also erodes at any empathy you have for hardened criminals once you look into their history and deal with them on a daily basis. It's really good preparation for dealing with them on the street.

I had gangsters in my family and grew up around them. I also hung around cops a lots and then worked the streets before working custody, so I fell right into step once I was assigned to the jails....... and I worked a facility that is as much a psych facility full of crazy people (...thank you state of California; I did not sign up to be a psychologist, psych tech or orderly) as it is a facility with hardened GP inmates. After a week I felt like I owned the place. I was rarely tested, but that's because they knew........I was always down to get down. They also knew that if I was going to get into force and have the brass reign down on me from the Eiffel Tower for which they sit, my partners and I were going to finish whatever they started, and it would leave a lasting impression. Interpret that how you want.


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Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
Before I ask anything I would like for you to know that I am NOT anti LEO in any way shape or form but I really am anti "Bad Cop". (A tid bit of my background) I have been working with the federal government (army) for going on 30 years and for a bit of that time I was a civil liberties officer for my organization. I was dumbfounded on the level of my soldiers and civilians lack of constitutional knowledge even though they took an oath to protect and defend The Constitution.
So here is my question, have you read the constitution and bill of rights?
I have used many YouTube videos of officers violating individual rights for training, because they just don't know what rights people have and that saddens me.
Also do you know the difference between your rights vs authorities?
Example: you "may" have the authority to identify someone but many officers believe they have the "right" to do so.

Well that depends on the case law and what we are talking about. I pay attention to case law that affects me professionally. Briefings are almost always about case law and/or changes to it. I need to know how to get into someone's pockets, into their vehicle, what my "keys to the castle" are, etc. I need to know that I can have your blood drawn without your consent or that there's cases being heard currently that may allow me to pull over a car for certain reasons under the suspicion that it's the registered owner driving the car. Unless you're a lawyer/DA/etc., or just someone who really loves law, a person isn't going to know the entire Constitution or Bill of Rights off the top of their heads any more than I know the entire California Vehicle Code or the California Penal Code books off the top of my head. I DO, however, know the most common violations though.


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Originally Posted by Rmtt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I was at my first department 7 years and I've been at my current department a little over 2 years. When I switched I had to work custody first - hence my jail experience - and now I'm back on patrol. After a few years on patrol I'll move to detective bureau/SVU.
My brother did the mandatory jail service as well....some of the stories I heard were crazy. He's on patrol now...and I still hear crazy stories.

All my Dads side of the family went into LE, and all my Moms side were career military.

It's like a family affair in our little area. I think I'm the only one who didn't get into it although my daughter did marry the son of our local county's SWAT team leader...and it so happens that his Uncle is the County Coroner.

I have nothing but respect for you guys. I used to teach self-defense classes for a lot of the LE in our area...well at least the ones who wanted to take their training a little farther.
Your family is one of service. That's excellent. I commend anybody willing to get out there and defend the law abiding public or defend this country.

Many, many men and women of law enforcement are martial artists and/or tacticians. You have to train something or these streets will eat you alive. Thanks for helping us in that manner.


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Originally Posted by upstatedoc View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
I was dumbfounded on the level of my soldiers and civilians lack of constitutional knowledge even though they took an oath to protect and defend The Constitution.
here's an easy rule of thumb to follow: don't talk to the cops no offense sedan
Lol! No offense taken.
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      10-17-2019, 02:14 PM   #76
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
While I didn't care for custody, there is merit to requiring deputies to work the jails before going to patrol
I didn't mean punishment for you,

My BIL went thru academy, then there was some issue with his FTO and he didn't make it thru 3 months. He's been with YA for over a decade now. All the time he's in there with them, scheming ways to get at him. While he has made BANK with OT and all, he is SO mentally worn by the end of a shift that I certainly don't envy him.
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      10-17-2019, 02:18 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
While I didn't care for custody, there is merit to requiring deputies to work the jails before going to patrol
I didn't mean punishment for you,

My BIL went thru academy, then there was some issue with his FTO and he didn't make it thru 3 months. He's been with YA for over a decade now. All the time he's in there with them, scheming ways to get at him. While he has made BANK with OT and all, he is SO mentally worn by the end of a shift that I certainly don't envy him.
It is mentally fatiguing. You're always "on". Juveniles in the YA (...or in general) are worse because there are more legal restrictions versus that of adults.
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      10-17-2019, 02:22 PM   #78
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It is mentally fatiguing. You're always "on". Juveniles in the YA (...or in general) are worse because there are more legal restrictions versus that of adults.
I'm seeing this more and more. If you can't even taser or pepper, then how would one exert control???? Going to take away their video game and iPhone?
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      10-17-2019, 02:30 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It is mentally fatiguing. You're always "on". Juveniles in the YA (...or in general) are worse because there are more legal restrictions versus that of adults.
I'm seeing this more and more. If you can't even taser or pepper, then how would one exert control???? Going to take away their video game and iPhone?
That's where professional presence and the ability to communicate with them effectively - and in a way they comprehend/resonate with - come into play, but even then it's difficult.
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      10-17-2019, 03:30 PM   #80
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Well that depends on the case law and what we are talking about. I pay attention to case law that affects me professionally. Briefings are almost always about case law and/or changes to it. I need to know how to get into someone's pockets, into their vehicle, what my "keys to the castle" are, etc. I need to know that I can have your blood drawn without your consent or that there's cases being heard currently that may allow me to pull over a car for certain reasons under the suspicion that it's the registered owner driving the car. Unless you're a lawyer/DA/etc., or just someone who really loves law, a person isn't going to know the entire Constitution or Bill of Rights off the top of their heads any more than I know the entire California Vehicle Code or the California Penal Code books off the top of my head. I DO, however, know the most common violations though.
I take that as a little tap dance around my question.

How often have you used the term “reasonable suspicion” .
Without using it properly, “reasonable suspicion of xxxxxx crime/violation”.?
It is a common thing that many officers do, “I have reasonable suspicion to pull you over.” Not finishing the sentence can be a really bad thing but many non police do not comprehend that fact.

You must have RAS that a crime or some type of violation has, is or will occur and many LEOs do not even know an individual has the right to know what that RAS is as well.

Btw, case law is not law, it is a courts interpretation of a situation regarding a law (I am assuming you know this but some here may not.)

Probable cause? Must be specific as well. Constitution is very specific on warrants and probable cause must be as well or a good lawyer will have you for lunch.
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      10-17-2019, 08:03 PM   #81
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I have another question...Sovereign Citizens? Let them go to avoid the drama (and possibly becoming another victim of their paper terrorism), or throw the book at them for every possible charge even if it means a sure case of writer's cramp, staying at the station late, and canceling your after-work plans?????
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      10-17-2019, 10:38 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
I take that as a little tap dance around my question.
Not really. ....but I'll break it down for you.

Quote:
Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
How often have you used the term "reasonable suspicion" .
Without using it properly, "reasonable suspicion of xxxxxx crime/violation".?
It is a common thing that many officers do, "I have reasonable suspicion to pull you over." Not finishing the sentence can be a really bad thing but many non police do not comprehend that fact.
Actually I don't know any officer/deputy/highway patrolman that uses the words, "reasonable suspicion", when conversing with motorists/suspects during traffic stops and/or negative police contacts. That term comes up on reports or in court. If I pull somebody over, I tell them exactly what drew my attention and why I pulled them over. There is no room for misinterpretation.


Quote:
Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
You must have RAS that a crime or some type of violation has, is or will occur and many LEOs do not even know an individual has the right to know what that RAS is as well.
What you say is true. We do need RS that a crime has occurred or is about to occur. Again, this doesn't really come up on traffic stops.........at least not in my experience. I know my legal justification for doing what I do when I deal with the public. On the side of the road or at the scene of a crime is not the time nor the place to give legal lessons. That's what court is for.


Quote:
Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
Btw, case law is not law, it is a courts interpretation of a situation regarding a law (I am assuming you know this but some here may not.)
My purpose in bringing up case law is because the courts interpretation of situations and the circumstances surrounding those situations is how we effectively police and is the cornerstone of what we do. If I can articulate it, I can justify just about anything.

Quote:
Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
Probable cause? Must be specific as well. Constitution is very specific on warrants and probable cause must be as well or a good lawyer will have you for lunch.
Feel free to give the Bimmerpost masses a lesson on RS vs. PC.


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Originally Posted by vreihen16 View Post
I have another question...Sovereign Citizens? Let them go to avoid the drama (and possibly becoming another victim of their paper terrorism), or throw the book at them for every possible charge even if it means a sure case of writer's cramp, staying at the station late, and canceling your after-work plans?????
We don't put up with the Sovereign Citizen crap in California. They either comply or we will take action. Driving on public roads is a privilege, not a right.
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      10-18-2019, 08:15 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
We don't put up with the Sovereign Citizen crap in California. They either comply or we will take action. Driving on public roads is a privilege, not a right.
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      10-18-2019, 01:29 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
If I pull somebody over, I tell them exactly what drew my attention and why I pulled them over. There is no room for misinterpretation.
Respect, many don't.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
What you say is true. We do need RS that a crime has occurred or is about to occur. Again, this doesn't really come up on traffic stops.........at least not in my experience.
Have you ever used the line, "You don't mind if I search your car do you?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I know my legal justification for doing what I do when I deal with the public. On the side of the road or at the scene of a crime is not the time nor the place to give legal lessons. That's what court is for.
I doubt that many officers would even have the credentials or knowledge to give legal lessons anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
If I can articulate it, I can justify just about anything.
Sadly many can't but get the backing of the DA. Even if the individual is innocent they still feel the pain and sometimes for a very long and expensive time.

I would still like to know from my fist question to you, have you read the constitution and bill of rights?
I would add the follow on, do you believe local laws take precedence over constitutional law were you work?
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      10-18-2019, 01:49 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by david in germany View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
If I pull somebody over, I tell them exactly what drew my attention and why I pulled them over. There is no room for misinterpretation.
Respect, many don't.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
What you say is true. We do need RS that a crime has occurred or is about to occur. Again, this doesn't really come up on traffic stops.........at least not in my experience.
Have you ever used the line, "You don't mind if I search your car do you?"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
I know my legal justification for doing what I do when I deal with the public. On the side of the road or at the scene of a crime is not the time nor the place to give legal lessons. That's what court is for.
I doubt that many officers would even have the credentials or knowledge to give legal lessons anyways.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
If I can articulate it, I can justify just about anything.
Sadly many can't but get the backing of the DA. Even if the individual is innocent they still feel the pain and sometimes for a very long and expensive time.

I would still like to know from my fist question to you, have you read the constitution and bill of rights?
I would add the follow on, do you believe local laws take precedence over constitutional law were you work?
I have used that line, but most of the time I just give an order and search when I have the legal justification to do so.

I read the Constitution and Bill of Rights in high school, and touched on and/or reviewed certain aspects of it while attending college. I'm sure that's the case for most people.

Give me an example of what you mean by local laws superseding constitutional rights.
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      10-18-2019, 02:52 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post

Give me an example of what you mean by local laws superseding constitutional rights.
I actually invalidated my own example.. LOL

I could use Florida's (my home state) ID law as there are some towns that have must ID laws on their books, people are arrested for failure to ID when there is no other lawful obligation for the individual to identify (no other crime/violation).


BTW, I am not trying to attack you, I just find it interesting other peoples views of the topics, much too often we have us vs them stuff flying like crazy.

I do however hate the thin blue line flags that so many officers wear. If you are wearing it instead of an American flag, do it off duty. When you are on duty you are and American police officer, wear the American flag or nothing. I also wear an American flag daily.
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      10-18-2019, 03:01 PM   #87
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post

Give me an example of what you mean by local laws superseding constitutional rights.
I actually invalidated my own example.. LOL

I could use Florida's (my home state) ID law as there are some towns that have must ID laws on their books, people are arrested for failure to ID when there is no other lawful obligation for the individual to identify (no other crime/violation).


BTW, I am not trying to attack you, I just find it interesting other peoples views of the topics, much too often we have us vs them stuff flying like crazy.

I do however hate the thin blue line flags that so many officers wear. If you are wearing it instead of an American flag, do it off duty. When you are on duty you are and American police officer, wear the American flag or nothing.
It depends on your interpretation of the Thin Blue Line flag. Some view it as an, "us vs. them ", message, with the "them" aspect of the message referring to the general public OR the criminals. Others view the flag as meaning law enforcement is the line between chaos/anarchy and relative peace. I personally view it as a bit of both. There's no denying that I have a target on my back whenever I wear my uniform; this year alone I've lost two personal friends. There's also no denying that without police (...and the fear of jail/prison time ), some people would act on their less socially acceptable [and illegal] desires.

As for the topic of city ordinances/municipal codes, that's a can of worms for sure. Knowing them, however, makes me more effective at policing the city that I'm assigned to.
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      10-18-2019, 03:18 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Sedan_Clan View Post
It depends on your interpretation of the Thin Blue Line flag. Some view it as an, "us vs. them ", message, with the "them" aspect of the message referring to the general public OR the criminals. Others view the flag as meaning law enforcement is the line between chaos/anarchy and relative peace. I personally view it as a bit of both. There's no denying that I have a target on my back whenever I wear my uniform; this year alone I've lost two personal friends. There's also no denying that without police (...and the fear of jail/prison time ), some people would act on their less socially acceptable [and illegal] desires.

As for the topic of city ordinances/municipal codes, that's a can of worms for sure. Knowing them, however, makes me more effective at policing the city that I'm assigned to.
I would never wish harm on any Leo, I just have a problem with the defacing of the flag it’s self. If you still see the flag as a US Flag but with a line on it than in accordance with the US Flag Code it is a violation. If you see it as a totally different flag than the US flag, don’t wear it on duty.
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