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      08-30-2019, 12:59 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Six rounds doesn't seem sufficient to me. Even the current ten rounds max NJ limits us to isn't sufficient... and the police obviously agree. That's why they're exempt from this limitation.
Well the problem is 90++% of folks that carry concealed are not trained to dispense many rounds and to need to do that your shooting skills suck or you are involved with multiple shooters.

With multiple shooters, totally probable that you need to get out of the area and take cover. And remember the likelihood is very remote you will ever need to fire your firearm. And then confront multiple shooters. Like winning the lottery 3 times in a year.

If you are concerned get training. As I have mentioned, I am a trainer and have spent over $4000 on training in the last 5 years. ten's of thousands of practice rounds.

I carry a 380 with a six round mag. I am better trained than the vast majority of cops in FIREARMS. They don't do that much training.

The reason cops need that much firepower is bc they are likely to be confronting an active shooter and then rush in where foks like me "should" be running the other way. I get weary of the Wyatt Earps (not you) bemoaning the need to carry 17 round mags. Hey carry extra mags. Takes under 2 seconds to drop a mag, insert another and fire some more.

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Originally Posted by jillcooper View Post
Okay I guess you're the perfect example of one of the idiots who don't understand & just blurt out an Answer.

It's not just about me or my siblings. its about your children, your brothers children or may be one of your friend whose going through college. or any other american child whose unable to afford college.

It's about each & every American child out there who wants to be educated but can't because they are not able to afford education.

It's not just about me so, first of all, let's try to be civil here.& think about the bigger picture.
You are part of the wave of folks needing to be rescued from yourself. Go to a community college, go in the army like 2 of my grandsons, take courses other than psyc.

I determined in HS that I would never never never be poor. (significant emotional event). I won't be paying for your free shit bc politicians need us old farts to keep them in power.
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      08-30-2019, 01:11 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
As a related tangent - when I graduated high school in '93, the local community college was charging $60/credit for tuition, Michigan State University was, as I recollect, about $120-125/credit.

Since we recently moved back to East Lansing, my wife was considering "auditing" a couple of classes at MSU. Their current tuition rate is between $482/credit and $555/credit hour.
http://www.ctlr.msu.edu/COStudentAcc...rgraduate.aspx



Is there some other industry where the cost has increased 400+% in the last 25 years? I can't think of anything or service that I currently use or buy that has, honestly.
Shown below are the 10-, 20-, and 30-yr average annual tuition percentage increases -- looks to be pretty constant 7-8% over the last 50 yrs. The steep and steady increase in the cost of an undergrad degree is not a recent phenomenon.

Source: https://www.oir.uci.edu/files/tuition/Undergraduate.pdf
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      08-30-2019, 01:39 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by jillcooper View Post
Okay I guess you're the perfect example of one of the idiots who don't understand & just blurt out an Answer.

It's not just about me or my siblings. its about your children, your brothers children or may be one of your friend whose going through college. or any other american child whose unable to afford college.

It's about each & every American child out there who wants to be educated but can't because they are not able to afford education.

It's not just about me so, first of all, let's try to be civil here.& think about the bigger picture.
Yeah I was one of those kids. I joined the USMC and took the GI Bill option when enlisting. I did my time and afterwards went to a state school. I only had to attend 3 years because my MOS was realated to my major. In the end I paid very little out of pocket. And because I was wise with my money, I saved quite a bit while enlisted.

So I cannot say my heart bleeds for the kids who cannot afford college. If you are dedicated to a cause then you will get shit done. There a millions to be had in grants and scholarships as well. Maybe these kids should focus less on trying to be a victim and more on getting shit done. Like the DIs used to say, "save the drama for your mama and push" because no one gives a shit about your "why i cant" sob story.
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      08-30-2019, 01:49 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adc100 View Post
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Six rounds doesn't seem sufficient to me. Even the current ten rounds max NJ limits us to isn't sufficient... and the police obviously agree. That's why they're exempt from this limitation.
Well the problem is 90++% of folks that carry concealed are not trained to dispense many rounds and to need to do that your shooting skills suck or you are involved with multiple shooters.

If you are concerned get training.

The reason cops need that much firepower is bc they are likely to be confronting an active shooter and then rush in where foks like me "should" be running the other way. I get weary of the Wyatt Earps (not you) bemoaning the need to carry 17 round mags. Hey carry extra mags. Takes under 2 seconds to drop a mag, insert another and fire some more.
First, my shotgun doesn't use magazines. While I'm really adept at speed loading my Benelli, not everyone is.

The "if you're worried, then get more training" really is a dick attitude. As someone who's trained and skilled, you know that most people aren't. Do we really need to make it more difficult for average people to protect themselves? We should be making it easier for honest people to defend themselves. That's why AR-pattern rifles are so popular; they're easy to use effectively.

Why not just make it two round maximum? Every double tap requires reloading. Perhaps ban firearms all together and demand people get trained in hand-to-hand combat if they want to protect themselves!

Besides, now I have to grab extra ammunition as I clear my house in the middle of the night? 🙄 For what purpose? I did nothing wrong.

About accuracy... I agree most people aren't very accurate. This is an argument FOR higher capacity firearms, not against.
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      08-30-2019, 02:04 PM   #71
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Everyone mentions free education in European countries. I don't know about Germany, but, in most you have to have very good grades and test scores, there isn't a university on every corner and there aren't a bunch of hucksters who will find more and more ways to sell a useless degree to some naive person and get the gov't to pay for it. (This is the US - we are and still are full of snake oil salesmen.) So we aren't Europe and will never be like Europe so things need to be thought out in that context
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      08-30-2019, 02:08 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by jillcooper View Post
It's true that it's not as free as most people think but has a look at it this way. & you would understand if you've got kids. Won't it be more convenient for you if you pay a 1.35$ for a product which is 1.25$ currently? then pay thousands of dollars intuition later.
Jill, I believe you are missing your own bigger picture. It isn't just about the 10 cents more on one item, but the 8% increase (per your own example) on EVERYTHING you earn.

For a very simple example let's say you make $100,000 per year from the time you are 30 until the time you retire at age 67. Under current tax law you would see an effective tax rate or around 16% of your income or $16,000 on that $100,000 you make. Now imagine that 16% becomes 24% to help pay for things like "free" college and health care. Now instead of $16,000 of your pay being paid in taxes every year, $24,000 is. A difference of $8,000.00 per year or $667.00 per month. Over the course of 37 working years that is $296,000.00. How many kids can you put through a decent state school for that? Let's not even get into what could happen to that $667 per month if invested over the course of 37 years.

I have two young children, so I do understand. They are four years and 1.5 years old. My entire family has already started saving for their education/future needs (whatever they may be.) It's usually a few hundred dollars here and there. When my wife and I get bonuses a good portion of those go into the pot.
We have great careers that we have both worked hard for and are paid well in return. That said, we live within our means so that we can put money away for things we want/need in the future. We have the means to go out and buy things like brand new premium ($100,000) cars, but choose to spend money on things like personalized in-home care for our children instead of putting them in more affordable daycare and saving for our retirement and the kid's future needs instead of buying a bigger house, fancy boat and new cars. It's called budgeting and priorities. Anyone can do it.
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      08-30-2019, 02:22 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gjm120 View Post
Everyone mentions free education in European countries. I don't know about Germany, but, in most you have to have very good grades and test scores, there isn't a university on every corner and there aren't a bunch of hucksters who will find more and more ways to sell a useless degree to some naive person and get the gov't to pay for it. (This is the US - we are and still are full of snake oil salesmen.) So we aren't Europe and will never be like Europe so things need to be thought out in that context
Let me explain how it worked in Communist Poland. You went to Liceum after you finished the 8th grade. By year 2 of Liceum you would see where you measured up.. You could than choose to go on with the program or enter a trade school. If you chose to stay than you would do 2 more years and have then take the Matura. This was something akin to the SATs but on some serious steroids. I covered all 4 years of your education and it had written and verbal presentation sections. There was no faking the funk, you either knew your shit or you didn't. Fuck up the Matura and your dreams of college were over. Oh and you only had one shot at it (now you get one re-examination).. To enter the university selection process, you had to score high on the Matura, have high grades through the 4 years, and be recommend by your teachers. Universities themselves were NO joke and just because you got in did not mean you were going to finish. Believe me those who did make it fucking earned those degrees. Process is still pretty much the same in Poland these days.. I guarantee if we did that in the US, university class rooms would get quite spacious.
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      08-30-2019, 02:49 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
As a related tangent - when I graduated high school in '93, the local community college was charging $60/credit for tuition, Michigan State University was, as I recollect, about $120-125/credit.

Since we recently moved back to East Lansing, my wife was considering "auditing" a couple of classes at MSU. Their current tuition rate is between $482/credit and $555/credit hour.
http://www.ctlr.msu.edu/COStudentAcc...rgraduate.aspx



Is there some other industry where the cost has increased 400+% in the last 25 years? I can't think of anything or service that I currently use or buy that has, honestly.
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      08-30-2019, 02:59 PM   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
As a related tangent - when I graduated high school in '93, the local community college was charging $60/credit for tuition, Michigan State University was, as I recollect, about $120-125/credit.

Since we recently moved back to East Lansing, my wife was considering "auditing" a couple of classes at MSU. Their current tuition rate is between $482/credit and $555/credit hour.
http://www.ctlr.msu.edu/COStudentAcc...rgraduate.aspx



Is there some other industry where the cost has increased 400+% in the last 25 years? I can't think of anything or service that I currently use or buy that has, honestly.
Shown below are the 10-, 20-, and 30-yr average annual tuition percentage increases -- looks to be pretty constant 7-8% over the last 50 yrs. The steep and steady increase in the cost of an undergrad degree is not a recent phenomenon.

Source: https://www.oir.uci.edu/files/tuition/Undergraduate.pdf
I didn't say it necessarily was a recent phenomenon, did I? I simply used a relatively recent time frame as an example.

My point still stands.
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      08-30-2019, 03:24 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jillcooper View Post
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Oh - also, just so I can get this straight.

You are so broke that you cannot afford your student loans and have to work 80 hours a week to make ends meet.

but......

You drive a $40,000 car?

Hmmmm.....I believe I may have found your problem!

1: Dude, I keep saying this again & again I'm not broke, neither do I need any one's charity. I'm really well off & I'm done with my student loans & living a great life.

2: By what I said in the start It was about the time when I wasn't that well off & was actually going through that shit.

3: I don't get why everyone in this thread is thinking that I'm trying to steal their money or something.

But about whom I'm talking about are the actual people who suffer from this shit.

4: It's not just about you & me In this scenario. It's about the people who end up in burger joints working 80 hours a week paying back their loan while juggling their studies at the same time.

5: I've gone through that shit as many of you have it's not easy. & yeah maybe it's unfair to all the people with "I did it so you should too mentality" But won't it be better if the future generations don't have to do that.

6: Lastly, Germany provides free education & their educational program is the best in the world, with nearly a 100% literacy rate. & they're doing pretty well for themselves, so I don't see the downside to this. & I don't mind paying a little extra so the kids of my country can get educated.

7: And now since I've mentioned "GERMANY" I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be labeled as a NAZI or probably HITLER by the shoot first Ask questions later people.
ummm, item #6 seems moderately ironic
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      08-30-2019, 03:59 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
Okay - so two things.

1) Your grammar and sentence structure is atrocious. I've taken the liberty of correcting it for you above so that others may be able to better understand you.

2) University is free for nearly anyone in the the United States that wants it to be. They just have to make an effort. There are currently over $14,000,000,000 of scholarships available in this country that go unclaimed every year. That is 14 billion dollars. Yes, with a B. So long as someone makes an effort in High School, there are plenty of scholarships to get a full ride to college in this country. In addition, 42 out of the 50 state offer completely free associates degrees at community colleges for anyone who graduates High School with a 'C' average or better. Between available scholarships and the first two years completely free, there is no reason anyone should graduate with debt these days.
See you walked right into the trap. You fixed the post by someone who should have done it herself but was too lazy to work at it on her own. Its a mess she made for herself but had to have someone else work to make it right while she kicked back and did nothing. Socialism.
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      08-30-2019, 04:07 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jillcooper View Post
1: Dude, I keep saying this again & again I'm not broke, neither do I need any one's charity. I'm really well off & I'm done with my student loans & living a great life. .
If my mom and daddy were rich and I lived in their house or they bought me one I would have a great life.
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      08-30-2019, 04:30 PM   #79
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[QUOTE=jillcooper;25198550]1: Dude, I keep saying this again & again I'm not broke, neither do I need any one's charity. I'm really well off & I'm done with my student loans & living a great life.



4: It's not just about you & me In this scenario. It's about the people who end up in burger joints working 80 hours a week paying back their loan while juggling their studies at the same time.


Ok right there.. What the fuck are you talking about? Having worked 16hr days for weeks at a time during hurricane/storm recovery I can assure you no one that works that schedule goes to school. People that pay their way through school either work full time and go to school part time. Or work part time and go to school full time. The tuition is paid by YOUR LOANS so it is not like you are paying out of pocket, up front. And loan payment is on hold till after you graduate; you do have the option to pay down your loans while in school but this is not compulsory. I started college in my 20s and had quite a few older folks in my class and none of them worked an 80hr schedule. The fact you wrote this means you have no idea what you are talking about and I guess your college was paid for by Mommy and Daddy LLC, and by the way there is nothing wrong with that.

Last edited by Delta0311; 08-30-2019 at 04:36 PM..
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      08-30-2019, 05:05 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jillcooper View Post

6: Lastly, Germany provides free education & their educational program is the best in the world,
Their pre college educational system is like most European Countries. Better than the U.S. in general. The libs have fcked ours up.


Out of the top 25 universities for engineering 14 of them are in the U.S..um..none in Germany

Out of the top 25 universities for Computer Science 17 of them are in the U.S..um..again none in Germany

Out of the top 25 universities for engineering 15 of them are in the U.S. 1 in Germany


Out of the top 25 universities for engineering 11 of them are in the U.S..um..none in Germany

Not surprising for a Lib (that lives in the U.S.)to down the U,S. at the drop of a hat. Congrats on being consistent with your fellow lemmings

https://www.timeshighereducation.com...eering-degrees

https://www.topuniversities.com/univ...=false+search=
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      08-30-2019, 07:41 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hooligan_COLD View Post
I didn't say it necessarily was a recent phenomenon, did I? I simply used a relatively recent time frame as an example.

My point still stands.
Sorry - should have been more clear.

I was surprised that the rate of increase is not a recent phenomenon. it's been going on for 5+ decades.
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      08-31-2019, 08:06 AM   #82
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Why the fuck should I have to pay for your loans, or your siblings loans. Get your shit together. You made that decision, if your job doesn't make you enough money to pay back your loans, then get a different job.
Okay I guess you're the perfect example of one of the idiots who don't understand & just blurt out an Answer.

It's not just about me or my siblings. its about your children, your brothers children or may be one of your friend whose going through college. or any other american child whose unable to afford college.

It's about each & every American child out there who wants to be educated but can't because they are not able to afford education.

It's not just about me so, first of all, let's try to be civil here.& think about the bigger picture.
Do you understand WHY post secondary education is so expensive?

Oh, and here's a dose of reality for people who think a 4-yr Bachelor's should be free. Reality: At least 60 percent of students currently enrolled in a 4-yr University would not pass a govt mandated admissions test under a "free" program.
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      08-31-2019, 09:04 AM   #83
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Originally Posted by F32Fleet View Post
Do you understand WHY post secondary education is so expensive?

Oh, and here's a dose of reality for people who think a 4-yr Bachelor's should be free. Reality: At least 60 percent of students currently enrolled in a 4-yr University would not pass a govt mandated admissions testunder a "free" program.
Details, details. Don't you understand it's all for the better good.

A degree has become like the latest phone - a 'necessary' social trapping. This isn't my opinion - I've heard that from people of a certain age group.

I can't help but think this is nothing but a cynical vote grab by Warren. Get enough dimwits to think they will get free college - deserved or not - then get them to the polls and there you have it - she's in. Just look at the nonsense posted above and it's obvious it can work.
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      08-31-2019, 07:40 PM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Six rounds doesn't seem sufficient to me. Even the current ten rounds max NJ limits us to isn't sufficient... and the police obviously agree. That's why they're exempt from this limitation.
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Originally Posted by Grumpy Old Man View Post
Same here, carried a 15 round mag (+1) at work and only allowed 10 round mag here. Thank god I can do really quick mag changes though.
You both have had PERSONAL FIREARM events where you have NEEDED more than 6 rounds? Wow. I'm glad I don't live in your neighborhoods.
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      08-31-2019, 07:43 PM   #85
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You both have had PERSONAL FIREARM events where you have NEEDED more than 6 rounds? Wow. I'm glad I don't live in your neighborhoods.
I was a police officer in a major metropolitan city for 31 years......our issued weapon was a Clock 22, 40 S&W, carried 3 15 round mags.....I carried extra ammo in my duty bag. Better safe than sorry.
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      08-31-2019, 07:47 PM   #86
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I was a police officer in a major metropolitan city for 31 years......our issued weapon was a Clock 22, 40 S&W, carried 3 15 round mags.....I carried extra ammo in my duty bag. Better safe than sorry.
Law enforcement. Not a personal firearm. I was precise in my wording.

I'll leave y'all to your "cold dead fingers" rants now.
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      08-31-2019, 07:49 PM   #87
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You both have had PERSONAL FIREARM events where you have NEEDED more than 6 rounds? Wow. I'm glad I don't live in your neighborhoods.
The Corps make you one hell of a marksman but we still load 29 rounds into the mag and keep extras for extra shit. One shit one kill does not always work out so well when your target is on the move and a few hundred meters away.
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      08-31-2019, 08:21 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by wdb View Post
You both have had PERSONAL FIREARM events where you have NEEDED more than 6 rounds? Wow. I'm glad I don't live in your neighborhoods.
My first time out at a friend's private shooting range with my first pistol, my friend/instructor thought that it would be a good idea for me to start out at 25 yards (75 feet)...with an out-of-the-box unsighted firearm...and shooting at a tiny handgun target meant for 25 feet (~8 yards). After 40 rounds, he pardoned the paper...with the staple marks as the only hole in it.

Before you laugh, it was actually an eye-opening lesson once I thought about it afterwards. That paper was about the size of center-mass on a person, and the distance was 3-4 room doors away in a school/hospital/hotel hallway. In an active shooter scenario and no practice, I couldn't hit the bad guy from more than one room away! Look at the history of pistol duels @ 10 paces (60 feet), where some ended in stalemates after three shots each with no hits.

Long story short, I don't have any law enforcement or military background, nor do I have any range experience in high-pressure situations. If I were ever in a hallway active shooter engagement, I would probably need more than 6 rounds just to get on target...if I lived long enough to get them all off.....
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