[iamwingman]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Moron = a people or person that disagrees with brainwashed environmentalists.

Facts don’t care about your feelings. $17 for 900 miles. Is total BS. Now I’m done here.

Post your link then. Do you act this ignorant and childish when your 19 year old son tries to enlighten you?

[M3WC]

This isn't rocket science. Using Model 3 SR(LFP) for example.

60kwh battery pack size(nominal). We will ignore the actual usable kwh, for sake of easy math. Lets say your utility charges $0.10/kwh. That is $6 to charge to 100% from 0%.

Using a conservative avg range per full charge of 200miles(city/highway combined). $30 for every 1,000 miles. This will also very due to climate.

It all comes down to what your utility charges. Some have lower rates at night, rather that peak hours.

[M3WC]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I don’t believe that. I don’t believe it’s $15 to charge that car four times. That’s not how much it cost at supercharging stations.

It is completely plausible. Price per kwh is very region specific.

Look at your own electric bill, how much do you pay for electricity. Then do the math. It is quite simple.

On average Telsa Superchargers are typically around $0.25/kwh. So yes it does cost more for DC fast charging.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Patton250

Moron = a people or person that disagrees with brainwashed environmentalists.

Facts don’t care about your feelings. $17 for 900 miles. Is total BS. Now I’m done here.

It’s amazing you pull out the facts card when it is you who can’t wrap your head around A * B = C. There are only 3 things to dispute here: the cost of electricity, the efficiency of the car, or basic math. Which is it that you don’t believe?

[rbryantaz]

Charging is cheap with an EV as long as you do it at home.... My wife was going about 80 miles a day when we first got the model S and our electric bill went up by about $20 a month so those numbers seem right to me.

6-8 cents per kWh is very reasonable public chargers are usually 30-50cents from what I have seen. At that price it isn't a very good deal.

That is why I really never use public charging stations. They are only needed for road trips and I would rather just take an ICE car on a road trip.

Of course cars that have free supercharging don't have to worry about this other than that it isn't really good for the battery.

-Rich

[DS_BMW]

Originally Posted by rbryantaz

Charging is cheap with an EV as long as you do it at home.... My wife was going about 80 miles a day when we first got the model S and our electric bill went up by about $20 a month so those numbers seem right to me.

6-8 cents per kWh is very reasonable public chargers are usually 30-50cents from what I have seen. At that price it isn't a very good deal.

That is why I really never use public charging stations. They are only needed for road trips and I would rather just take an ICE car on a road trip.

Of course cars that have free supercharging don't have to worry about this other than that it isn't really good for the battery.

-Rich

This is the stuff I'm looking for thanks.

[Equilibrandt]

An intriguing thought is also how everyone calculates recuperated costs.

I'm certain that getting a Polestar 2 would save me a ton of money.

But by my math, it'd take me a year to see any savings after I hire an electrician to run 240v to the other side of my garage (or I wire clamp an extension cord across my roof) and purchase some sort of 'smart' charger/wallbox. Food for thought.

On the other hand, not sure why that guy's tweaking about the costs to drive a Tesla. Even IF it wasn't $17 for 900 miles, he's saying it's double... $34 a month is far cheaper than a month of gas in my Miata or M3.

Also, what many don't take into account is geography. There's a reason why all the high wattage crypto farms were built in warehouses near hydroelectric dams, not in Los Angeles.

[Clark_Kent]

Originally Posted by rbryantaz

Charging is cheap with an EV as long as you do it at home.... My wife was going about 80 miles a day when we first got the model S and our electric bill went up by about $20 a month so those numbers seem right to me.

6-8 cents per kWh is very reasonable public chargers are usually 30-50cents from what I have seen. At that price it isn't a very good deal.

That is why I really never use public charging stations. They are only needed for road trips and I would rather just take an ICE car on a road trip.

Of course cars that have free supercharging don't have to worry about this other than that it isn't really good for the battery.

-Rich

This and this. I only charge outside of my home when on road trips when I have no choice or for dedicated parking when finding parking is impossible. Doesn't make sense for me to pay 4-5x my at home cost when my SOC is rarely less than 50%.

[rbryantaz]

Originally Posted by Clark_Kent

This and this. I only charge outside of my home when on road trips when I have no choice or for dedicated parking when finding parking is impossible. Doesn't make sense for me to pay 4-5x my at home cost when my SOC is rarely less than 50%.

This is why I get annoyed when coworkers say "I will get an EV when there are more charging stations."

That is a narrative that everyone has including the media but it makes no sense.... I then ask, if you were to go on a road trip would you take the EV or your X5? They say "I would take the X5" and then realize that it is a silly notion that public chargers are the problem.

Sure it would be nice if all apartment complexes had EV chargers and if all parking spots had cheap charging but the reality is that even with only 160 miles of range I still only charge at home because it is much cheaper. I have a full 80amp tesla wall charger (which I can only use at 40amps) in my wife's garage (the house has a 2car/1car split garages) that gives about 30 added miles of range per hour on the model S. I also added NEMA 14-30 outlet that is shared with my air compressor in my garage (which was taken from the electric dryer outlet because mine is gas) so I can charge at 17mph (240v, 24amps) in my garage. Costs for those installs were done and deducted from my taxes in back to back years...

If someone lives in an apartment and has no access to a charger then public paid charging stations probably still won't work well for them or be economical (unless they are free at work or something). The first step is to get people that have a house with a garage to understand that EVs work great in that scenario and that they don't need 500 miles of range 99% of the time.

Having an EV as an only car will require more charging stations but most people I see buying EVs (or saying they are waiting for more charging stations) have more than one car anyway... But even then I would probably rent an ICE car for a road trip and save the miles on my EV.

As an amusing coincidence: They are currently putting in 4 tesla chargers in my work parking lot right now (100ft from my parking spot). I will probably never use it and it will probably just be annoying with more traffic in the complex even though I have an EV... I guess all of my coworkers that have bought into the false narrative no longer have excuses...

-Rich

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by iamwingman

No. You pay less at home than superchargers charge. That’s the point. When charging at home you can get almost 1000 miles for around $20 of electricity.

Exactly. And especially if you charge during off peak hours.

The amount of horseshit that comes out of people that know shit about ev is amusing.

Btw I paid 8 bucks the last time I visited a supercharger. It probably cost me the same to charge at home for double or triple the range added than at that supercharger.

[rbryantaz]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

Exactly. And especially if you charge during off peak hours.

The amount of horseshit that comes out of people that know shit about ev is amusing.

Btw I paid 8 bucks the last time I visited a supercharger. It probably cost me the same to charge at home for double or triple the range added than at that supercharger.

Some older grandfathered in Teslas do have unlimited free supercharging but even then unless on a road trip it just seems like a hassle and a waste of my time. Plugging in as a park for the night and unplugging in the morning takes no time and the cost for my daily drive is so low that supercharging would make no sense...

[Pheonix]

The costs of charging will greatly depend on location! For me in Northern California, the rates are $0.28/kWh off-peak and $0.49/kWh peak. My VW Id4 gets average about 3.2miles/kWh so it would cost me $87.50 per 1,000 miles.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by rbryantaz

This is why I get annoyed when coworkers say "I will get an EV when there are more charging stations."

That is a narrative that everyone has including the media but it makes no sense.... I then ask, if you were to go on a road trip would you take the EV or your X5? They say "I would take the X5" and then realize that it is a silly notion that public chargers are the problem.

Sure it would be nice if all apartment complexes had EV chargers and if all parking spots had cheap charging but the reality is that even with only 160 miles of range I still only charge at home because it is much cheaper. I have a full 80amp tesla wall charger (which I can only use at 40amps) in my wife's garage (the house has a 2car/1car split garages) that gives about 30 added miles of range per hour on the model S. I also added NEMA 14-30 outlet that is shared with my air compressor in my garage (which was taken from the electric dryer outlet because mine is gas) so I can charge at 17mph (240v, 24amps) in my garage. Costs for those installs were done and deducted from my taxes in back to back years...

If someone lives in an apartment and has no access to a charger then public paid charging stations probably still won't work well for them or be economical (unless they are free at work or something). The first step is to get people that have a house with a garage to understand that EVs work great in that scenario and that they don't need 500 miles of range 99% of the time.

Having an EV as an only car will require more charging stations but most people I see buying EVs (or saying they are waiting for more charging stations) have more than one car anyway... But even then I would probably rent an ICE car for a road trip and save the miles on my EV.

As an amusing coincidence: They are currently putting in 4 tesla chargers in my work parking lot right now (100ft from my parking spot). I will probably never use it and it will probably just be annoying with more traffic in the complex even though I have an EV... I guess all of my coworkers that have bought into the false narrative no longer have excuses...

-Rich

All fair points. My problem is the bulk of the demographic that is propping up current EV sales are buyers who own a home and or are purchasing the EV as a second vehicle. This group is only going to shrink due to the housing crisis this country seems content to kick down the road (gen Z and everyone after has basically accepted that they will never own a home) and wages continue to stagnate, leaving people with insufficient income to own two vehicles. I can't see it possibly ending well once the last of the boomers and their children die off or stop purchasing cars at the volumes they have been. Obviously, part of a much bigger discussion, but I think the rush into EVs is just one ingredient in the crap sandwich we're all going to be eating for the next decade or more.

[rbryantaz]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

All nice scenarios, but the majority of the market can't afford multiple cars to have an ICE for the 1% roadtrip. And the majority of the market doesn't have private charging capability. And to build all the necessary chargers to make roadtripping comparable to ICE, most locations outside of large cities will never be profitable at the current 250 - 300 mile range most EV get. The chargers will sit mostly unused not generating revenue. The Govenment will need to pay for them. Then what happens when the magic 600 mile battery debuts? Even more mostly unused or never used chargers.

I would argue that renting the ICE car for the 1% to .1% still makes more sense... The wear and tear rock chips, etc are rarely worth it.

Also it is still cheaper to buy a 200mile range EV AND another road trip car than it is to buy a 500mile range EV...

A 500mi range EV would be the wrong car for daily commutes (hauling around a ton of unneeded battery weight) and the 200mile car is the wrong one for a road trip.

This is all about getting past personal preferences that make no economic sense.... People feel more comfortable in their own car on the road trip so they take it when it is really better to just rent.

I tend to take the X5 on roadtrips but really renting a sedan or even minivan would make more sense. I know that and therefore don't complain. The EV owners that road trip should also understand that it isn't really the right car for that.

I think the biggest barrier to EVs isn't public charging stations it is home charging stations for people that don't have garages (which I don't see as a real problem other than the charger needs to be wired and installed on a post or something), live in apartments, etc. The home chargers need to be solved first. Tax credits to home builders would be a good start and probably exist. Credits to home owners definitely already exist.

[Bongoxxx]

Originally Posted by Pheonix

The costs of charging will greatly depend on location! For me in Northern California, the rates are $0.28/kWh off-peak and $0.49/kWh peak. My VW Id4 gets average about 3.2miles/kWh so it would cost me $87.50 per 1,000 miles.

Coming soon to Ontario…$0.024/kWh from 11pm -7am, making it even cheaper for charging overnight.

[SoCal_NSX]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

But your point of view is from a well funded economic seat. A majority of the automotive market is not well funded as you and I are and most of the auto enthusiasts on E90 Post. They don't care about stone chips. Renting a vehicle just for a road trip makes no sense. An owner is still paying for a depreciating asset sitting in its parking space while he is driving another vehicle and paying for the rental company's depreciation. Adding the need to go to the rental store to get the vehicle. A vehicle is a tool for driving, so use it for what you bought it for. It's the same if you go and rent a wrench set from Autozone while you have wrenches in your tool box that you don't want to wear out.

The barrier to EV is people like having a car that recharges in 5 minutes; bottom line that's it, 5 minutes. They get a recharge of 300 - 400 miles in winter, summer, doesn’t matter. 5 minutes. Done. Sitting around for 20 to 45 minutes to get 80% range back... fuck that. 5 minutes, 100% range recovery and I have all the heat in winter I want for no range penalty.

not really an issue if you have home charging though..I will never waste another 5 mins at a gas station that charges $4.60 a gallon (avg price in my area right now) I simply plug in my car like my iPhone and wake up to a full charge with 275 miles of range for pennies on the dollar....it only really affects you on long road trips when you may have to stop and charge for 15-30 mins, but that is the trade off for spening $50-100 for fill ups at gas stations.

We recently took our Jeep Wrangler Rubicon to Tahoe and spent about $350 in gas...




I wouldn't have minded taking the Tesla and a couple 20-30 min pit stops to save about $250 but there was way too much snow for the M3P

Can't wait til the Jeep Wrangler goes full EV, I'll probably get one, cuz 16 mpg is killing me

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by rbryantaz

Some older grandfathered in Teslas do have unlimited free supercharging but even then unless on a road trip it just seems like a hassle and a waste of my time. Plugging in as a park for the night and unplugging in the morning takes no time and the cost for my daily drive is so low that supercharging would make no sense...

My level 1 charging at home is set at 15a. That gives me 6 miles of range per hour. A snail yet if I plug when I get home, to the time I unplug in the morning, that’s around 12 hours depending on my schedule. I never have to worry about “running out of juice”.

Supercharging gives you the convenience of charging up to near full in about 25-30 minutes.

If you buy an ev with no access to charging at home at all, level 1 or 2, then complain about not wanting to visit a supercharger, that’s the fault of the owner. Not the ev’s fault.

It’s been working for literally every single person who has an ev.

People just talk shit because they hate to face reality. And the inevitable.

2035 on the move!! Lmaooo

[rbryantaz]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

. A vehicle is a tool for driving, so use it for what you bought it for. It's the same if you go and rent a wrench set from Autozone while you have wrenches in your tool box that you don't want to wear out.

I would if the tool was an extra $40,000 more than the tools that I need to do 99.9% of things.

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

The barrier to EV is people like having a car that recharges in 5 minutes; bottom line that's it, 5 minutes. They get a recharge of 300 - 400 miles in winter, summer, doesn’t matter. 5 minutes. Done. Sitting around for 20 to 45 minutes to get 80% range back... fuck that. 5 minutes, 100% range recovery and I have all the heat in winter I want for no range penalty.

Yes that is not likely to happen any time soon with Lithium battery technology. But I have also never actually charged that way EVER with the 99.9% commute use model.

[SoCal_NSX]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Just ribbin' ya, but dude, your other car is a Cayman, and MP3, and you were driving to... Tahoe (I'll assume to go spring skiing?). And you worry about gas prices and Jeep MPGs...

Most of the US population does not have such issues...

Just sayin'

no, it was in February to visit family and play in the snow...

lift tickets these days are INSANE...Heavenly Valley now charges almost $200 for a full day lift ticket

Since I spent all my money on my cars I can't afford those insane prices

and now taxes are due....FML, time to sell the Cayman

[rbryantaz]

Originally Posted by BGM-M3COMP

My level 1 charging at home is set at 15a. That gives me 6 miles of range per hour. A snail yet if I plug when I get home, to the time I unplug in the morning, that’s around 12 hours depending on my schedule. I never have to worry about “running out of juice”.

Garage wiring is usually 12ga so outlets can be directly changed to a NEMA 5-20 to gain a little bit more juice.

Screenshot from: https://shop.tesla.com/product/gen-2-nema-adapters

(*There is no 40amp plug in the US wiring code so these still need larger wire to comply with the 50amp outlet but the tesla charger won't really utilize it. This means that getting a real wall charger is a better solution after going larger than a 30amp outlet. The Newer tesla chargers also won't charge at 40amps anyway due to heat issues burning them out) Granted there are other EVs other than teslas but this info should still scale and apply to most other EVs.

And if that is a dedicated single outlet to the garage and 12ga wiring you could change it to a NEMA 6-20 220V by changing the outlet and swapping the neutral wire to be on the other phase with a double gang breaker and putting a piece of black tape on each white wire end (this is legal in wiring code). This is only possible if there is a dedicated line to that outlet with no other outlets on the circuit though. This is 4-5x faster charging depending on the car...

Or if it is really 14ga and dedicated wiring then you can use a 6-15 and 3x as fast.

One other trick is that sometimes the garage door opener is on a dedicated line and you can steal that and run a line from the other outlets to the garage door opener.

So it isn't hard to a decent charge at home using the wiring that is there even without running a large new line or having larger 30amp+ wiring.... Bigger is better but not always needed. It is just another myth that it is very expensive to setup a decent home charging solution.

-Rich

[BGM-M3COMP]

I use my dryer outlet to charge the car when needed. I usually get 6 miles per hour. On the rare occasion I’ll get 7 but it doesn’t last long, maybe an hour or 2. 90% of the time it’s 6 miles per hour.

I’m def gonna upgrade my panel this summer. I don’t need 40 miles per hour of range but at least 20-25. That would be perfectly fine for me.

[DS_BMW]

So I will definitely need a level 2 installed. If not only 3-4 miles an hour off a 110?