[stlcdr]

I think the Porsche / bmw comparison is an unfair comparison. Porsche is defined as a 2 seater sports car (of any model). Without it, they don’t exist. BMW, on the other hand, is the performance sedan.

The sheer variety of bmw sedans completely overwhelms the Z4 making it almost an RandD experiment in comparison.

[spbonzo]

If Porsche killed off the Boxster/Cayman, I suspect that would be like amputating an arm in terms of the damage done to Porsche brand identity.

That's because the Boxster\Cayman are the cheapest models in Porsche's range and puts them within the reach of a lot more people.

I'll maintain that the Z4 is excellent value for money compared to the Boxster and apart from people who 'just want a Porsche' or can genuinely make the most of the better handling the Z4 is the better buy.

[ebirotedu]

Yeah, agreed. Biggest reasons why I ended up with a Z4 instead of a Boxster:

- Availability - Months long wait for a Boxster; got my Z4 from an already-ordered dealer allocation 3 weeks after placing my deposit

- No ADM or other BS markups - good luck getting a Boxster at MSRP new, or at a reasonable price in the resale market (resale market markups are driving the new dealer inventory markups)

- Styling - I prefer the Z4's styling to the Boxster, in part because I like the traditional look associated with front-engine / RWD lineage roadsters (also, the Z4 looks great with the top up or down - many 'verts do not look good top up (Mercedes C-series, anyone?)). I get why some long-time BMW owners are put off by the styling - it's not obviously BMW except for the kidney grills.

- Performance - Good enough for me and with no practical difference for on-road use vs a Boxster. I'm not planning to track my Z4 at the moment, but I may in the future. At the minute, I mostly use the Z4 for weekend cruising of rural & mountain roads, occasionally applying the whip. I don't feel like I'd be any happier driving a Boxster.

- Value - The Z4 is a much better value in terms of features / amenities when comparing MSRPs; especially so with Porsche dealer markups.

For me, the only significant downside of owning a Z4 relative to a Boxster is resale if/when that's a consideration - it's not going to be as good as a Boxster. That said, I usually buy cars thinking I'll keep them 10 years - I don't always, but assuming I do the difference in resale value may not matter much at all vs. if I were to sell or trade it in 3-5 years. With this car in particular, given that it's a 2-seater ICE powered roadster with no successor in the midst of a once-in-a-lifetime automotive shift from ICE to EV/PHEV, there's a good chance I will keep it at least that long.

Finally, I probably would have gone with a manual given a choice, but I've made my peace with that (happy with the ZF 8AT). If BMW dropped an M version, which seems highly unlikely, I might be motivated to switch depending upon the particulars (6MT, RWD, lighter, M-specific engine & bodywork). Maybe.

Originally Posted by spbonzo

That's because the Boxster\Cayman are the cheapest models in Porsche's range and puts them within the reach of a lot more people.

I'll maintain that the Z4 is excellent value for money compared to the Boxster and apart from people who 'just want a Porsche' or can genuinely make the most of the better handling the Z4 is the better buy.

[SMD001]

Good luck getting any Porsche near msrp.looked at a 22’ Macan GTS for my dad. Used with 200 miles and 10k over msrp.

I refuse to participate in this insanity.

[Horseman]

I honestly don't mind the low numbers. One reason why I wanted to get a Z4 was because it's so unique. None are out there. I get to enjoy this experience with a small niche of people. I'm ok with that. Unlike the 98,712,398,659,017,823 Mustangs and 9,871,290,387,578,907,123 Camaros and 987,623,876,140,987,123,975 Porsches.

[Westside Guy]

Originally Posted by Horseman

I honestly don't mind the low numbers. One reason why I wanted to get a Z4 was because it's so unique. None are out there. I get to enjoy this experience with a small niche of people. I'm ok with that. Unlike the 98,712,398,659,017,823 Mustangs and 9,871,290,387,578,907,123 Camaros and 987,623,876,140,987,123,975 Porsches.

Yes, the low numbers do make the Z4 unique but at the same time it will help to kill off a roadster from BMW's future plans unless a company like Toyota "makes them an offer they can't refuse" to co-develop an electric roadster.

[Horseman]

Originally Posted by Westside Guy

Yes, the low numbers do make the Z4 unique but at the same time it will help to kill off a roadster from BMW's future plans unless a company like Toyota "makes them an offer they can't refuse" to co-develop an electric roadster.

I understand that too. Seems like roadsters are a dying breed. Not saying I don't see a bunch here in san antonio, but compare that to trucks and SUV's.... doesn't stand a chance. the sports car now has four doors.

[CeEl]

Originally Posted by Horseman

I understand that too. Seems like roadsters are a dying breed. Not saying I don't see a bunch here in san antonio, but compare that to trucks and SUV's.... doesn't stand a chance. the sports car now has four doors.

Enough Corvettes seem to get sold?

[Horseman]

Originally Posted by CeEl

Enough Corvettes seem to get sold?

Corvettes are also right up there. See more than a handful every day. C7s and a few C8's. Go to Cars and Coffee and there's a loooong line of them.

Yet... only one G29. Just sayin.

[ebirotedu]

The Corvette is Chevy’s, and GM’s, halo performance car. It has a racing history and pedigree that goes back decades and has been an aspirational purchase for many for just as long. The Z4 is going to have a hard time competing with that.

I think the announced (eye watering) Z06 pricing shows how confident GM is that the Corvette matches up well against the 911, which itself has a truly formidable pedigree and is not at risk of going away in coupe, targa or cabriolet form either.

But the market can only bear so many roadsters (or 2+2 ‘verts in the case of the 911). Besides Corvettes, 911s, and Boxsters selling in volume at the high end of the market (based on average vehicle purchase price, though I think we could define this market in other ways) and Miatas at the low end, there may not be many options given the global obsession with do-everything SUVs.

Maybe people are into SUVs nowadays because they know the myth of the open road is mostly just that (compare the typical sports car commercial with your real world experience), and if you’re going to sit in traffic staring at a screen it might as well be a large one built into your dash, right? I know it takes me a couple hours to get anyplace where the roads aren’t clogged with distracted slowpokes.

EDIT - forgot the Mercedes SL(S) - MB has made recent noises saying that volume isn’t important, that customers expect the brand to offer such a vehicle, and that MB will continue to produce it for that reason.

Originally Posted by CeEl

Enough Corvettes seem to get sold?

[CeEl]

Originally Posted by ebirotedu

The Corvette is Chevy’s, and GM’s, halo performance car. It has a racing history and pedigree that goes back decades and has been an aspirational purchase for many for just as long. The Z4 is going to have a hard time competing with that.

I think the announced (eye watering) Z06 pricing shows how confident GM is that the Corvette matches up well against the 911, which itself has a truly formidable pedigree and is not at risk of going away in coupe, targa or cabriolet form either.

But the market can only bear so many roadsters (or 2+2 ‘verts in the case of the 911). Besides Corvettes, 911s, and Boxsters selling in volume at the high end of the market (based on average vehicle purchase price, though I think we could define this market in other ways) and Miatas at the low end, there may not be many options given the global obsession with do-everything SUVs.

Maybe people are into SUVs nowadays because they know the myth of the open road is mostly just that (compare the typical sports car commercial with your real world experience), and if you’re going to sit in traffic staring at a screen it might as well be a large one built into your dash, right? I know it takes me a couple hours to get anyplace where the roads aren’t clogged with distracted slowpokes.

EDIT - forgot the Mercedes SL(S) - MB has made recent noises saying that volume isn’t important, that customers expect the brand to offer such a vehicle, and that MB will continue to produce it for that reason.

The configurator for the new SL is up, by the way. Very disappointed in the (interior) color choices and restrictions. Even though I still think it’s a good looking car.

[jdhiro]

Originally Posted by ebirotedu

The Corvette is Chevy’s, and GM’s, halo performance car. It has a racing history and pedigree that goes back decades and has been an aspirational purchase for many for just as long. The Z4 is going to have a hard time competing with that.

Once again, BMW self-inflicted wound. The Z3M Coupe was an icon they could have built on, but instead the Z legacy is tarnished.

The Z4M was great on paper with the S54 engine, but the execution of that car was widely panned.

For some extremely confusing reason, they decided to make E89 Z4 into a GT3 model, despite the base car being the worst driving Z ever and refusing to make an M model.

The G29 is probably the most promising, competent Z car ever, but they refuse to put anything more than bare minimal effort into it.

Every generation of Corvette's has been strongly redeeming, for one reason or another.

---

I'm a die-hard BMW guy, and I've just wanted one real dedicated sports car from them forever, but they keep failing.

They finally release a dedicated car under their motorsports division... and it's an SUV.

I think I'm just convincing myself that BMW doesn't know what they are doing with Z, and should just get it over with and kill it forever.

Somewhere in the multiverse there is 1 person at BMW who still has in their heart to build some real brand equity with a true enthusiast product on a platform THEY ALREADY HAVE.

I don't know how much longer I can deal with this disappointment BMW keeps dishing out. Z4 - refuse to give their only sports coupe proper sports car attributes, M3/M4 deliberately awful style, i8 underpowered and half-baked experience, M specific car is a (*#@ SUV.

M5 CS is brilliant, but too big for the segment I'm in.
New M2 is sure to be brilliant, but too down-market for 43 year-old me, and still not a proper sports car chassis.

I'm not going to throw out the "time for a P car", but I'm properly frustrated at BMWs sports-car efforts, and I'm not giving them new money when I happily would.

--

I know this will sit wrong with some folks on this forum, but I don't think there should be a 30i version of this car. I'd scrap the M40i too.

Z should have been given to the M division, and this should have been released as a roadster/coupe with an S58 and relatively aggressive suspension and tight steering from day 1. The automotive vloggers would have lots their collective minds, and this car would have gone down as the new Z icon. Every major automotive journalist would be screaming about this car.

But I guess someone in finance is scared of losing a few M2 sales, or something.

[StanDiego]

Originally Posted by jdhiro

I know this will sit wrong with some folks on this forum, but I don't think there should be a 30i version of this car. I'd scrap the M40i too.

Z should have been given to the M division, and this should have been released as a roadster/coupe with an S58 and relatively aggressive suspension and tight steering from day 1. The automotive vloggers would have lots their collective minds, and this car would have gone down as the new Z icon. Every major automotive journalist would be screaming about this car.

But I guess someone in finance is scared of losing a few M2 sales, or something.

Your post doesn't sit wrong with me but... I have a different opinion, probably less popular than yours but here we go:

I'd hoped for many years that the Corvette was offered with a milder and more affordable package. I love spirited driving and g-force acceleration but the amount of power in a current generation would kill me, literally. I once sat at a stop light and watched a new vette owner punch it at a yellow light on a right turn, spun it, and backed into a concrete abutment, bouncing up and down, obliterating his rear end. That would be me in a Corvette.

I'm one of those who appreciates the handling but doesn't need or desire massive power, thus my 30i, a perfect fit for me. My first roadster was as a teenager in the '70s, an MGB, and I've since owned a couple of Miatas and enjoyed them all. To be honest, I'd love to own a Z4 m40 (reasonable, controllable power) but, on my budget, not for another $10K. If not for the 30i, I wouldn't be a proud Z4 owner. Perhaps selfishly, I'm glad they offered it.

[jdhiro]

Originally Posted by StanDiego

Your post doesn't sit wrong with me but... I have a different opinion, probably less popular than yours but here we go:

I'd hoped for many years that the Corvette was offered with a milder and more affordable package. I love spirited driving and g-force acceleration but the amount of power in a current generation would kill me, literally. I once sat at a stop light and watched a new vette owner punch it at a yellow light on a right turn, spun it, and backed into a concrete abutment, bouncing up and down, obliterating his rear end. That would be me in a Corvette.

I'm one of those who appreciates the handling but doesn't need or desire massive power, thus my 30i, a perfect fit for me. My first roadster was as a teenager in the '70s, an MGB, and I've since owned a couple of Miatas and enjoyed them all. To be honest, I'd love to own a Z4 m40 (reasonable, controllable power) but, on my budget, not for another $10K. If not for the 30i, I wouldn't be a proud Z4 owner. Perhaps selfishly, I'm glad they offered it.

Good thoughts- I feel like I should elaborate on my last post.

Two of my favorite cars ever were the Honda S2000 and Toyota MR2 Spyder. 138 and 240HP, but brilliantly connected sports cars. (Except, honestly the steering needed work in the S2000).

I feel like my X3 with the B58 is quick as hell -- but it's not the same experience as the S engines I've had in my many M3s.

I'm not asking for crazy horsepower - I'm asking for a lot of direct, connected, sports car-esque feeling and feedback. What I like about S engines (at least the S55) is the sense of urgency, the chassis feedback, the more authentic brrrrrrrrrrrrrradpp from the engine.

Of course, I miss the induction sounds from the S65, but that's another topic for another day.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by jdhiro

The G29 is probably the most promising, competent Z car ever, but they refuse to put anything more than bare minimal effort into it.

Z should have been given to the M division, and this should have been released as a roadster/coupe with an S58 and relatively aggressive suspension and tight steering from day 1.

Car is a partnership with Toyota & this limits how much they can do with it. (cost/price) Without Toyota funding there is no Z4.

Current Z4 M40 is traction limited with a very short wheelbase. Not a good plan to put 500BHP in a car that is already pushing its limits at 382BHP.

At minimum it would need AWD like the M4C & a lot more tire. Mine were history in 16,000 miles.

A true "M" standalone would price itself out of the market to cover development & low unit sales.

Don't really believe people will pay 911 money for a BMW Z4 M.

[CeEl]

Got this from a German forum.

I know thread title is NA sales report, but figured this fits into this thread better than making a new thread.

First, apparently, German authorities consider the Z4 a sports car

Second, Z4 is 2nd most registered sports car in Germany.

The Excel spreadsheet shows registration in July as well as Jan to July. The slide shows BMW sales in USA & Germany for the first 6 months of the year.

[Bayernzeit]

Originally Posted by CeEl

Got this from a German forum.

I know thread title is NA sales report, but figured this fits into this thread better than making a new thread.

First, apparently, German authorities consider the Z4 a sports car

Second, Z4 is 2nd most registered sports car in Germany.

The Excel spreadsheet shows registration in July as well as Jan to July. The slide shows BMW sales in USA & Germany for the first 6 months of the year.

Originally Posted by CeEl

Got this from a German forum.

I know thread title is NA sales report, but figured this fits into this thread better than making a new thread.

First, apparently, German authorities consider the Z4 a sports car

Second, Z4 is 2nd most registered sports car in Germany.

The Excel spreadsheet shows registration in July as well as Jan to July. The slide shows BMW sales in USA & Germany for the first 6 months of the year.

That was really interesting, thanks. The Z4 is rare where I live in the Bavarian countryside; I can go weeks sometimes without seeing another one on the road. However, it's really easy to see multiple G29 in a day moving about Munich. Follow the money I guess, and doesn't hurt to be in BMWs backyard.

Not surprised to see the 911 is king. Anecdotally, took a couple hours' drive last Sunday and didn't see another Z4 of any generation, but saw two 911 GT3 at separate times (as they passed me). Interesting to see just how poorly the Lexus/Toyota models do overall (Supra excepted). They've never cracked the market here like in the States, and you can see why with the home-grown products on offer.

[ebirotedu]

Originally Posted by CeEl

Got this from a German forum.

.

Interesting. 60% of BMW sales in the US in 1H 2022 were SAVs. In Germany it was only 38%.

Also, found this:

https://carsalesbase.com/us-sports-cars-2022-h1/

There are two tables (compact & large sports cars), but you can sort of synthesize a comparison to your German sports-car table. The 911 outsells the Boxster & Z4 in both markets by a considerable margin.

[jdhiro]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

At minimum it would need AWD like the M4C & a lot more tire. Mine were history in 16,000 miles.

A true "M" standalone would price itself out of the market to cover development & low unit sales.

Considering that both the M2 and M3/M4 offer RWD variants, I don't see why AWD would be required, although I do know the wheelbase is about 10" shorter.

If Toyota is really doing the GRMN Supra with the S58 as rumored, then the then the R&D is already done.

Don't really believe people will pay 911 money for a BMW Z4 M.

Well a base 911 starts at $106K - and includes luxuries such as a plastic dashboard. (And a slower 0-60 than the Z4.)

I just spec'ed out a well equipped Z4 M40i and it's barely over $70K. The Z4 has a long ways to go before it starts encroaching on 911 territory.

I maintain that there is room for them to launch a more hardcore M or "Final Edition" around 80-90K.

Welp - fingers crossed.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by jdhiro

Considering that both the M2 and M3/M4 offer RWD variants, I don't see why AWD would be required, although I do know the wheelbase is about 10" shorter.

If Toyota is really doing the GRMN Supra with the S58 as rumored, then the then the R&D is already done.



Well a base 911 starts at $106K - and includes luxuries such as a plastic dashboard. (And a slower 0-60 than the Z4.)

I just spec'ed out a well equipped Z4 M40i and it's barely over $70K. The Z4 has a long ways to go before it starts encroaching on 911 territory.

I maintain that there is room for them to launch a more hardcore M or "Final Edition" around 80-90K.

Welp - fingers crossed.

First like it or not a Z4 is not a 911.

People will pay the 911 premium not a Z4 premium. In fact $10K ADM is not big deal on the 911 as they sell everyone thy build.

Z4's sold 2414 cars 4 & 6 cylinder in the USA last year. Porsche sold 9,167 911's

My Z4 MSRP was $73,000. As you said the base 911 MSRP is $106K & the 911 kills the cheaper Z4 in sales.

The M4 Convertible starts around $90K. Mine was $95K. Why AWD? Convertibles are all 503BHP competition models. With the S58 engines power only way they can fully exploit it is to have all 4 wheels working.

The AWD version out performs the RWD in all metrics. In addition if you want to play drifter you can toggle in full RWD drift mode. Best of both worlds

To take it one step further the only way you can get a 6MT is to drop back to the base 473BHP engine. This combination has a hard time against a M440 Xdrive 8ZF because the 440 can put its power to the ground.

Back to the Z4. What power would they put in a 6MT/RWD version? 473BHP thats overwhelms the larger tires on a heavier M4 6MT? Less power or move to AWD?

Current owner stats in a M3/M4 forum poll are

Base offers a 6MT 473BHP 28%
Competition offers 503BHP 8ZF & RWD 22%
Competition Xdrive 503BHP 8ZF & AWD 50%

The base has the 6MT but I don't know what percentage of the base are 6MT. So lets say all of them.

If the current M4 sales were used as a model that would be about 676 Z4 cars each year to spread the development cost over. That's just to put a 6MT into it. It works because Toyota is picking up a nice chunk of the cost.

Moving to a true M car BMW would have to eat all the rest of the development money against a very small sales base.

BMW's low volume M8 sold 7,760 cars in 2021 pricing around $144K. You might expect as Z4 as a limited production M car could be quite a bit more than $75,000.

Coming up with the solution costs development money for a car that is dead in 3 years. Would be happy just to see them pull off the 6MT as an option even though I would not buy it.

The GRMN Supra is also rumored to have a DCT & an AWD option so who knows. Expect pricing would be like Godzilla's. So what would that say the Z4M would need to stay with it? They are talking M4CS power. Would BMW under cut M4C & M4CS pricing to put an M4CS power package into a limited production Z4MCS?

[CeEl]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

First like it or not a Z4 is not a 911.

People will pay the 911 premium not a Z4 premium. In fact $10K ADM is not big deal on the 911 as they sell everyone thy build.

Z4's sold 2414 cars 4 & 6 cylinder in the USA last year. Porsche sold 9,167 911's

My Z4 MSRP was $73,000. As you said the base 911 MSRP is $106K & the 911 kills the cheaper Z4 in sales.

The M4 Convertible starts around $90K. Mine was $95K. Why AWD? Convertibles are all 503BHP competition models. With the S58 engines power only way they can fully exploit it is to have all 4 wheels working.

The AWD version out performs the RWD in all metrics. In addition if you want to play drifter you can toggle in full RWD drift mode. Best of both worlds

To take it one step further the only way you can get a 6MT is to drop back to the base 473BHP engine. This combination has a hard time against a M440 Xdrive 8ZF because the 440 can put its power to the ground.

Back to the Z4. What power would they put in a 6MT/RWD version? 473BHP thats overwhelms the larger tires on a heavier M4 6MT? Less power or move to AWD?

Current owner stats in a M3/M4 forum poll are

Base offers a 6MT 473BHP 28%
Competition offers 503BHP 8ZF & RWD 22%
Competition Xdrive 503BHP 8ZF & AWD 50%

The base has the 6MT but I don't know what percentage of the base are 6MT. So lets say all of them.

If the current M4 sales were used as a model that would be about 676 Z4 cars each year to spread the development cost over. That's just to put a 6MT into it. It works because Toyota is picking up a nice chunk of the cost.

Moving to a true M car BMW would have to eat all the rest of the development money against a very small sales base.

BMW's low volume M8 sold 7,760 cars in 2021 pricing around $144K. You might expect as Z4 as a limited production M car could be quite a bit more than $75,000.

Coming up with the solution costs development money for a car that is dead in 3 years. Would be happy just to see them pull off the 6MT as an option even though I would not buy it.

The GRMN Supra is also rumored to have a DCT & an AWD option so who knows. Expect pricing would be like Godzilla's. So what would that say the Z4M would need to stay with it? They are talking M4CS power. Would BMW under cut M4C & M4CS pricing to put an M4CS power package into a limited production Z4MCS?

Good points.

The development cost would be spread across all Z4's sold worldwide, not just the ones sold in the USA. But of course still (too) low volume.

[BMWGirlFL]

I think it's too soon to call. Maybe work for Supra, M2 (& other models?) plus ICE ending somehow makes a special G29 possible. I also think getting an allocation will be tough if it happens.