[chris719]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Everybody knows there are shady lenders, doing business with them is a choice.

I mean, have you ever bought a car before? Most people have no idea or control over who their lender will be when they go and buy a car from a dealership.

The borderline sociopath gymnastics in this thread are amazing. It's perfectly fine to take advantage of people if they are poor or unprepared, got it.

Yeah, the story was so lacking in basic logic that an arbitrator awarded them $225k and excoriated the dealership.

[nerdogray]

I'm guilty of getting wrapped up in the process. Anxiety plays a part, too. Ignorance another. I tend to trust people a bit too much, especially with the interplay of those two. I can totally understand the mental and emotional steps someone can take when purchasing a vehicle... and the problem is some of these dealers know and exploit the psychology behind that. I've gotten better about it over the years but not by much. My most recent purchase was really quite different through another dealer. I kept expecting them to do *something*, but they never did. My CA was exceptional and efficient. Not once did they attempt anything deceptive. No loan padding, no rate switching, or anything like that. Even at the end, they weren't pushy with the DAO's and easily took "no" for an answer. That is the way it should be. The dealer in the posted article is at the opposite end of the spectrum and should be publicly shamed.

[BeEmVe]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

Because that is what happens in life; people try to screw you. It's an individual's responsibility to be best prepared for it. It's not like I haven't been clear on that point.

While one can try to educate themselves as best as possible there are apt to be unexpected issues that arise. And not everyone is a prepared as you.

To whit: As I stated in my original post I never have and never will use dealer financing as I was educated early on that bank financing is better. That said, I decided to educate myself on dealer financing. Here was y first source:

https://consumer.ftc.gov/articles/fi...or-leasing-car

Here is what addresses the yo-yo issue:

Ask questions about the terms of the contract before you sign. For example, are the terms final and fully approved before you sign the contract and leave the dealership with the car? Does the price on your contract match what the dealer sent you ahead of time? And if the dealer says they’re still working on the approval, the deal isn’t final. Consider waiting to sign the contract, and keeping your current car, until the financing has been fully approved.

Don’t leave the dealership without a signed copy of the completed credit contract or lease agreement. Make sure you understand whether the deal is final before you leave in your new (or new-to-you) car. If you’re called back to the dealership because the financing wasn’t final or didn’t go through, carefully review any changes or new documents you’re asked to sign. Consider whether you want to proceed.

If you don’t want to agree to the new deal, tell the dealer you want to cancel and ask for your down payment and trade-in back. Make sure the application and contract have been canceled. Get confirmation in writing that the application and contact were canceled. If the loan was being arranged by a financing company, call that financing company to confirm. Keep copies of your paperwork.

If you agree to a new deal, be sure you have a copy of all the documents.

Now I can read that in hindsight and understand it. But I seriously doubt that the average person would fully understand the consequences.

Further, I am willing to bet that if I were to ask a dealer "Is the deal finial and I am good to go?" That they would say yes and not admit that the financing was not finial. Which is exactly what happened to those profiled.

So while you have been clear, you have not shown any empathy. Therein lies your problem.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by chris719

I mean, have you ever bought a car before? Most people have no idea or control over who their lender will be when they go and buy a car from a dealership.

I'm starting to wonder if you have ever.

I've leasead, used dealer financing, brought my own financing, and had the dealer offer me their financing that ended up being with my bank anyway.

The borderline sociopath gymnastics in this thread are amazing. It's perfectly fine to take advantage of people if they are poor or unprepared, got it.

Perhaps it's the lack of mental flexibility that is thwarting you. If you are stupid, you do stupid things. If you do stupid things, you get bad results. You can go through life blaming others for your stupidity, or you can ask for help. We can make laws to protect stupid people, but that seems to have limits.

Yeah, the story was so lacking in basic logic that an arbitrator awarded them $225k and excoriated the dealership.

That doesn't explain the title transfer part on the trade-in. How did they sell a car with no title? Like literally, what instrument/process did they use?

Seems there are other culpable parties, or missing elements in the story.

If they were defrauded, it's a story about a legal matter as much as being about consumer finance education. If it were a story about being a car with a fraudulent bad title, we'd be talking about the dealer being crooks, not about predatory sales methods. Fraud is it's own issue, and it's already illegal.

It's not illegal to be stupid.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by chris719

It's perfectly fine to take advantage of people if they are poor or unprepared.
.

I'm curious why you think that, cause no one else here seems to think that. Is there something wrong with you? Care to share?

[chris719]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

I'm curious why you think that, cause no one else here seems to think that. Is there something wrong with you? Care to share?

It's called sarcasm. Are you stupid? This is actually your standpoint here, not mine.

You must be fucking stupid because you're arguing that it's perfectly fine to engage in deceptive financing practices that scam people. Practices that are ILLEGAL in some states. The only reason it is not illegal in all 50 states is most likely that the dealerships have strongly lobbied against it.

How much of a POS can you be?

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

So let's see, in this thread I've been called "cruel", "terrible", "warped", and "psychopathic", and now "without empathy". Wow! All over shit people read into my posts that I didn't say. Typical.

And the couple walked away with a new car and $225K. Lol. Empathy. Sounds like good feelings when you get a participation trophy.

I think I'm gonna cry...

It was quite clear, actually. You replied to the OP and asked why the victims weren't smart enough to not get scammed. Your subsequent posts dug the hole further and defended predatory practices as OK because the victims should have known better.

They got $225k because, unlike you, the arbitrator understands they were wronged.

[chris719]

I have to say, I am pretty surprised that we have 2 people here that are openly pro spot delivery scam. I expect to get into arguments in this anti-EV low IQ section of Bimmerpost, but really didn't expect to have to explain why predatory practices are bad.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by chris719

It's called sarcasm.

This is actually your standpoint here, not mine.

Which one is it, you using sarcasm, or describing my point?

You must be fucking stupid because you're arguing that it's perfectly fine to engage in deceptive financing practices that scam people.

No, I'm not. One would have to be stupid to come to that conclusion.

Practices that are ILLEGAL in some states. The only reason it is not illegal in all 50 states is most likely that the dealerships have strongly lobbied against it.

What? Fraud? Fraud is illegal in all 50 states.

How much of a POS can you be?

As much as you want me to be it seems.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by chris719

I have to say, I am pretty surprised that we have 2 people here that are openly pro spot delivery scam. I expect to get into arguments in this anti-EV low IQ section of Bimmerpost, but really didn't expect to have to explain why predatory practices are bad.

And yet you can't articulate any logical reason to support your dubious conclusion about my beliefs or points, and you persist it spreading it anyway.

You need to work your way up this chart, you seem to be stuck on the bottom levels.

[FC4]

This thread sucks. Why did I just read all this garbage.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

And yet you can't articulate any logical reason to support your dubious conclusion about my beliefs or points, and you persist it spreading it anyway.

You made it quite clear where you stand. I don't have time for your evasive BS and to litigate every minor detail.

Beyond that, what is it you do here on Bimmerpost other than shit-stir for a quick ego boost? Your post history seems to be devoid of anything but social outrage threads. Like, most other members post in the E90 section, F80, F87, etc. Why would you even be on this forum when you have nothing of value to contribute?

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by chris719

You made it quite clear where you stand. I don't have time for your evasive BS and to litigate every minor detail.

No, you are too busy saying I said things that I never said. You don't even bother to quote it because it's all paraphrased on your part, ie: I didn't say it.

Beyond that, what is it you do here on Bimmerpost other than shit-stir for a quick ego boost? Your post history seems to be devoid of anything but social outrage threads. Like, most other members post in the E90 section, F80, F87, etc. Why would you even be on this forum when you have nothing of value to contribute?

I drive a G12, there's not much going on in the G11/G12 forum. That's Not my fault. G11/G12 drivers tend to not do much to or with their cars. I check there daily. Read the threads in there before you decide what that means about me and my "car guy" status. I have little specific wisdom to offer the E90, F80, or F87 guys and I don't pretend to try, so my absence is a compliment and show of respect if anything. Quit with the ad-hom, it's not helping. You should look at that piramid again, you need to strive for better than this.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

LOL. You are the one who started the argument in the first place, then go and pull the IQ card.

I hope you see the irony of your statement.

I’ve read the whole thread. He basically doesn’t like people who have the audacity to believe in personal responsibility. He has called you and Chad every name in the book. Nowhere in the thread, has anyone endorsed dealerships or anyone scamming other humans. Basically, you and others have said that people have the responsibility to protect themselves, and should seek help if they lack the experience to do so in a given situation. I agree with that. Here’s an example. My income is too complicated for me to do my own taxes now. If I attempted to do them, I would definitely screw up and Chris would probably blame the system rather than me. While I’d love to cuss out and blame the IRS, its still my responsibility to get it done right. Most people in the United States agree the IRS is pretty predatory. L O L. However, we are still held responsible for getting our taxes done correctly. I suspect Chris is all for suing gun manufacturers if one of their products is used in a murder.

Disclaimer: I do not support predatory practices from any business, including car dealerships. Anyone who knowingly and willingly scams another human being is a bad person, and I happen to know that in the very end they will get their due punishment.

[Donatello.]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

I had a dealer try a yo-yo on me, but I think it wasn’t predation, but rather over optimistic financing. They called a week after the sale to say they wanted another $2500 down, so I asked “when can I come in to return it?” Just straight up dead-pan called their bluff. They said my trade was already gone (which I doubt), but I thanked them for buying for so much. A little back and fourth on the phone I told them I only live 2 miles away, it’s no trouble to drop it off and unwind the deal, and I had a company vehicle to drive in the mean time. He said he’d call me back. 2 days later he offered if I paid 1250 more down, they would increase my trade value 1250 to make the bank happy. I told them no problem, and promptly paid.

It’s not always predatory, and it doesn’t have to harm you financially. I came out ahead 1250, but you have to be willing to unwind the deal. I was happy to let them keep my trade at the negotiated price too, I was profiting as it was, so even if I lost both vehicles, I was positive on money.

Be willing to walk away, have alternative transportation options, and don’t negotiate with negative equity.

Most people do not have multiple vehicles. Come on

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by Donatello.

Most people do not have multiple vehicles. Come on

https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/rese...ip-statistics/

NUMBER OF VEHICLES - PERCENTAGE OF HOUSEHOLDS (2020)
No vehicles available - 8.5%
1 vehicle available - 32.5%
2 vehicles available - 37.1%
3 or more available - 22.0%

There is also public transit, friends, uber, etc. If you aren't willing to walk away from fraud when it presents because of "reasons", fraud is what you can expect to get : regardless of your "reasons".

No one should be defrauded. It's illegal and immoral. You are also supposed to read and understand things that you sign. If you don't, who is to blame If you get defrauded because of that? You are both to blame. Power of prevention, we all have it.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/rese...ip-statistics/

NUMBER OF VEHICLES - PERCENTAGE OF HOUSEHOLDS (2020)
No vehicles available - 8.5%
1 vehicle available - 32.5%
2 vehicles available - 37.1%
3 or more available - 22.0%

There is also public transit, friends, uber, etc. If you aren't willing to walk away from fraud when it presents because of "reasons", fraud is what you can expect to get : regardless of your "reasons".

No one should be defrauded. It's illegal and immoral. You are also supposed to read and understand things that you sign. If you don't, who is to blame If you get defrauded because of that? You are both to blame. Power of prevention, we all have it.

I’m afraid you’re going to get in trouble if you keep making sense like this. Stop it.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

https://www.fool.com/the-ascent/rese...ip-statistics/

NUMBER OF VEHICLES - PERCENTAGE OF HOUSEHOLDS (2020)
No vehicles available - 8.5%
1 vehicle available - 32.5%
2 vehicles available - 37.1%
3 or more available - 22.0%

There is also public transit, friends, uber, etc. If you aren't willing to walk away from fraud when it presents because of "reasons", fraud is what you can expect to get : regardless of your "reasons".

No one should be defrauded. It's illegal and immoral. You are also supposed to read and understand things that you sign. If you don't, who is to blame If you get defrauded because of that? You are both to blame. Power of prevention, we all have it.

This is a perfect example right here. Factually correct but missing the mark.

They execute the scam on those groups that they know have a low probability of having these resources. It's not hard to grasp. They target the poor and desperate.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Patton250

I’ve read the whole thread. He basically doesn’t like people who have the audacity to believe in personal responsibility. He has called you and Chad every name in the book. Nowhere in the thread, has anyone endorsed dealerships or anyone scamming other humans. Basically, you and others have said that people have the responsibility to protect themselves, and should seek help if they lack the experience to do so in a given situation. I agree with that. Here’s an example. My income is too complicated for me to do my own taxes now. If I attempted to do them, I would definitely screw up and Chris would probably blame the system rather than me. While I’d love to cuss out and blame the IRS, its still my responsibility to get it done right. Most people in the United States agree the IRS is pretty predatory. L O L. However, we are still held responsible for getting our taxes done correctly. I suspect Chris is all for suing gun manufacturers if one of their products is used in a murder.

Disclaimer: I do not support predatory practices from any business, including car dealerships. Anyone who knowingly and willingly scams another human being is a bad person, and I happen to know that in the very end they will get their due punishment.

That is what you want to read into it, of course.

There is obviously a threshold where where the situation flips from you screwing up or being unprepared to you being taken advantage of. Some situations are quite murky, but to me it boils down to some combination of intent and rate of occurrence. If the intent is malicious, as it is in this case, it's clearly a scam and the victims are victims. If you are purposely rushed through signing 20 pages of papers and walk out thinking you own the car, it's pretty clear. Being tripped by a hole in the sidewalk might be your fault for not looking down, but if some asshole kids did it on purpose in a shaded area I'd say you are mostly absolved. Even if a utility didn't mean to do it, but ends up breaking 20 ankles, it's probably their fault. It's about the reasonable expectation.

Your tax scenario is interesting. I don't think the IRS is trying to purposely trap you, so it's your fault. Again, it depends. If 75% of Americans make the same mistake, I would say that the problem lies with the tax code. In software, if most of your users are making the same user error, it's bad design not the fault of the user. Of course, I do think our taxes are needlessly complicated, but the fault lies mostly with the tax preparation industry that has lobbied hard to prevent anyone from fixing it.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by chris719

That is what you want to read into it, of course.

There is obviously a threshold where where the situation flips from you screwing up or being unprepared to you being taken advantage of. Some situations are quite murky, but to me it boils down to some combination of intent and rate of occurrence. If the intent is malicious, as it is in this case, it's clearly a scam and the victims are victims. If you are purposely rushed through signing 20 pages of papers and walk out thinking you own the car, it's pretty clear. Being tripped by a hole in the sidewalk might be your fault for not looking down, but if some asshole kids did it on purpose in a shaded area I'd say you are mostly absolved. Even if a utility didn't mean to do it, but ends up breaking 20 ankles, it's probably their fault. It's about the reasonable expectation.

Your tax scenario is interesting. I don't think the IRS is trying to purposely trap you, so it's your fault. Again, it depends. If 75% of Americans make the same mistake, I would say that the problem lies with the tax code. In software, if most of your users are making the same user error, it's bad design not the fault of the user.

If you murder someone, the prosecutor has to prove your guilt. So, in other words, you are innocent until proven guilty. If the IRS comes after you, you have to prove your innocence. In other words, you are guilty until you prove your innocence. Even the most pro IRS peeps, won’t argue with what I just said.

I think we should prosecute scammers. They are very bad people. However, if you just sign 20 pieces of paper without reading them, you are now partially responsible for the scam. In my opinion. I guess I was just raised differently. It never really occurs to me to blame other people for the circumstances I put myself in. Maybe I should start doing that. You know, jump on the bandwagon?

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Patton250

If you murder someone, the prosecutor has to prove your guilt. So, in other words, you are innocent until proven guilty. If the IRS comes after you, you have to prove your innocence. In other words, you are guilty until you prove your innocence. Even the most pro IRS peeps, won’t argue with what I just said.

I think we should prosecute scammers. They are very bad people. However, if you just sign 20 pieces of paper without reading them, you are now partially responsible for the scam. In my opinion. I guess I was just raised differently. It never really occurs to me to blame other people for the circumstances I put myself in. Maybe I should start doing that. You know, jump on the bandwagon?

Yeah but the whole setup is a trap designed to rush you through signing those papers. They rush you, make you feel uncomfortable. It's the intent.

For example, it has also been proven you can't just jam endless shit into a EULA and get away with it just because people clicked to accept. In Feldman v. Google (2007), the court held that a clickwrap agreement is only enforceable when the user has the time to read it and understand it before accepting the terms. There are other cases similar that litigate the content and not just the timing as well.

[Patton250]

Originally Posted by chris719

Yeah but the whole setup is a trap designed to rush you through signing those papers. They rush you, make you feel uncomfortable. It's the intent.

For example, it has also been proven you can't just jam endless shit into a EULA and get away with it just because people clicked to accept. In Feldman v. Google (2007), the court held that a clickwrap agreement is only enforceable when the user has the time to read it and understand it before accepting the terms. There are other cases similar that litigate the content and not just the timing as well.

No, I know there are laws passed to protect, ignorant people and it’s probably a good idea. Where were those protection laws when I was on my 36th sheet of paper I was signing when I joined the military????? Lol. I sure could’ve used a lawyer then.
Buying a car has always sucked.