[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by chris719

I'm not talking about your stupid study, which is an outlier, btw. Just basic truths.

cherry-picking and changing the location and shape of the goal post is how you want to discuss this, I get it.

like that study that shows a Hummer EV produced more C02 per mile than a 32 MPG ICE Malibu? Just another silly outlier, regardless of the fact that it's factually true.

[chad86tsi]

From the study:

[SoCal_NSX]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

cherry-picking and changing the location and shape of the goal post is how you want to discuss this, I get it.

like that study that shows a Hummer EV produced more C02 per mile than a 32 MPG ICE Malibu? Just another silly outlier, regardless of the fact that it's factually true.

end of the day...that study is laughable

click bait type article and study bought and paid for by big oil cherry picking the best MPG cars on the road driven by old ladies and even then, it is still no comparison when it comes to actual cost per mile...google it

https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


It costs an average of $55.70 to charge an electric car for a month and $668.40 to charge it for a year if you’re only charging at home.
In general, charging an EV is approximately 3.5 times cheaper per mile than the cost of fueling a gas-powered car. Based on driving a compact sedan, you will pay approximately $0.04 per mile to charge your EV compared to $0.14 to fuel your gas-powered car.
While you’ll likely pay more upfront for an EV than a comparable gas car, EVs are typically cheaper over their lifetime.
The cost of charging an EV will depend on several factors, including your electricity source, the size of your EV’s battery, the type of EV charger you use, where you live, and when you charge your EV.


The average internal combustion engine car today can be expected to last 200,000 miles, according to Car and Driver, which makes maintaining a traditional vehicle about $20,200 and an EV $12,200 — an $8,000 difference.
When it reaches 300,000 miles, the gas cars would cost $30,300 for maintenance and EVs cost $18,300 — a difference of $12,000.
Even a cheaper gas-powered vehicle like the Atlas Cross Sport, a five-passenger SUV, which cost around $31,000 at its lowest, the additional $20,200 after driving for a long period of time makes it more expensive than Volkswagen ID.4 at $40,000.
It all boils down to maintenance.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Note Tesla is not mentioned as a basis of the study before you proceed.

And what is an ionic5, id4, hummer ev, plaid, x, y, i4, bolt, ipace, ev6, rivian , lucid, lightning, etron , mache, Taycan, gv60 , etc, etc. cross shopping to? The article didn’t cherry-pick and mix vehicle class. If it did, we would likely be comparing a hummer ev to a Prius.

Look, you're using a garbage cherry picked "study". I really don't care what it says. There are questionable methods used and it just happens to be one that aligns with your biases. It's the only study that comes to this conclusion, how odd.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ost-questions/

Stick to peer reviewed published content if you want to be taken seriously.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

end of the day...that study is laughable

click bait type article and study bought and paid for by big oil cherry picking the best MPG cars on the road driven by old ladies and even then, it is still no comparison when it comes to actual cost per mile...google it

Still refusing to look a the criteria, even after I posted pictures so you don't have to read? got it. Carry on.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by chris719

Look, you're using a garbage cherry picked "study". I really don't care what it says. There are questionable methods used and it just happens to be one that aligns with your biases. It's the only study that comes to this conclusion, how odd.

https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ost-questions/

Stick to peer reviewed published content if you want to be taken seriously.

So you aren't alleging it's non-factual? interesting It's almost as if facts didn't matter in these discussions anymore.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

So you aren't alleging it's non-factual? interesting It's almost as if facts didn't matter in these discussions anymore.

I am saying it is garbage and makes bad assumptions to arrive at worthless estimates. Of course it appears here and not the many others that do not agree with the prevailing viewpoint in this thread. Let's be honest, you and some of the other usual characters in this thread are not interested in the actual truth, just any "truth" that aligns with your viewpoint.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by chris719

I am saying it is garbage and makes bad assumptions to arrive at worthless estimates.

What assumptions does it make?

[chris719]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

What assumptions does it make?

Read the linked C&D article or the several others that address the issues with it. I don't have the desire to break it down again. I am lazy and nothing will change your mind anyway.

[chris719]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm sorry but here's the problem with EV, the battery cost. People who buy a Camery to get their ass around town don't cross shop a 3 series or X3 because they don't want to or can afford the BMW luxury tax. So when the EV sedan option is just a Model 3 at $55K, the Camry buyer sees a Camry at $32K. He realizes the $20K difference buys him 10 years worth of gasoline and he doesn't have to sit around waiting for his stupid EV to recharge. And he knows he can drive it anywhere at anytime and refuel.

Comparing the price between filling at a gas pump or EV charger is not the point. The $20K battery needed for the EV fuel storage is the cost issue. It's really no harder to understand than that.

This is a fair point regarding the lack of cheap EVs. However, all Model 3 owners I know came from German cars or a Lexus. These are people that would be spending 40-60k anyway no matter what type of car they purchased.

There is currently no good solution for the type of person who would be in the market for a brand new Corolla, yes. I do not agree that the cars are equivalent minus a $20k battery tax, which is sort of what you are getting at. A Model 3 or Model S has a BMW-like kinematic and suspension setup, it does not drive like a FWD econobox.

[SoCal_NSX]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

Still refusing to look a the criteria, even after I posted pictures so you don't have to read? got it. Carry on.

lmao..their criteria is the joke itself.

btw, there are several articles out now that call this idiotic study out for its ridiculous claims.

but, you keep doing you



https://electrek.co/2021/10/27/detro...s-cars-report/

https://www.thewattcar.com/home/ande...ed-assumptions


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ost-questions/

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by chris719

I am lazy

Strange, the C&D doesn't address all points, only some of them. the ones it does not address are where some of the larger actual costs are hidden/obscured in the actual price to own and charge an EV. Things like charger install and panel upgrade costs, deadhead time, energy consumed, and miles driven to reach chargers. It's just simply not calculated for in the C&D article , as if they don't cost anything. More cherry picking and erasing facts from discussion. If you ignore enough facts, anything can be proven true I suppose.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

lmao..their criteria is the joke itself.

btw, there are several articles out now that call this idiotic study out for its ridiculous claims.

but, you keep doing you

https://electrek.co/2021/10/27/detro...s-cars-report/

^ Doesn't address the cost of a home charger at all, and doesn't calculate deadhead time at all as if it is free (time, energy, and miles of usage) to drive around looking for a place to charge.

https://www.thewattcar.com/home/ande...ed-assumptions

^ Uses personal anecdote that a level 2charger costs $325, when national averages run $700-$2000, and doesn't calculate deadhead time at all as if it is free (time, energy, and miles of usage) to drive around looking for a place to charge.


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ost-questions/

^ Already addressed this one. Same issues.

Just ignore these facts and EV becomes simply better. I'll give you that it's cheaper for most right now absent all the variables one must deal with.

[TargaM2]

EV discussion starts around 15 minute mark…
No they aren’t American (thank god) so this discussion is for those that aren’t completely self absorbed.
Most performance car enthusiasts outside of the US will know who Sam is, (for those in the US go ask car enthusiast Jerry Seinfeld). An interesting take that usability has still not improved in the EV structure in the past couple of years despite there being many more players.
The comparison to the whole diesel push from governments several years ago is worth considering too.
Again the manufacturers will always build good cars & make a profit regardless of what you give them to work with, the problem lies in the infrastructure & supporting networks required to make this whole EV takeover work.
This EV push is absolutely worthless unless countries such China & India get fully on board as they are the big consumers/polluters & unless these governments get involved & put their money where there mouth is by way of huge tax breaks & rebates etc there is currently no way the average citizen from these countries can buy a new EV & throw it away every ten years or so. Until we have multiple competing manufacturers selling EVs’ for the same price of a new Chinese/Korean eco box & more importantly an infrastructure to support it (which is likely still decades away) what incentive is there for these people to buy an EV. They simply can’t afford to consider the environment & therefore don’t.
Thus those of us in wealthier countries buying a new Tesla instead of an M3 or whatever may feel like an enviro-hero but in the grand scheme we are contributing nothing. We are currently just simply purchasing another different brand of car.
https://youtu.be/-mx9Xy3gPmQ

[Bongoxxx]

Originally Posted by Efthreeoh

I'm sorry but here's the problem with EV, the battery cost. People who buy a Camery to get their ass around town don't cross shop a 3 series or X3 because they don't want to or can afford the BMW luxury tax. So when the EV sedan option is just a Model 3 at $55K, the Camry buyer sees a Camry at $32K. He realizes the $20K difference buys him 10 years worth of gasoline and he doesn't have to sit around waiting for his stupid EV to recharge. And he knows he can drive it anywhere at anytime and refuel.

Comparing the price between filling at a gas pump or EV charger is not the point. The $20K battery needed for the EV fuel storage is the cost issue. It's really no harder to understand than that.

Agree, this is the issue…for me it comes down to the cost.

When I picked up my 2018 340 new in late 2018, a Model 3 performance optioned the way I wanted was over $100k in Toronto at the time. With factory incentives I was under $68k for the loaded 340…stupid to buy the Model 3.

Today a M340 optioned the way I want is $84,500, Model 3 performance optioned the way I want is $77,500 including the wall charger. $85,400 if I go with the enhanced auto pilot.

Essentially a wash now on purchase price for me, but in order for me to charge at home I’d need to upgrade my electrical panel as I’m to the limit now with other ‘toys’ in the house. $5k added to the purchase of an electric car in order to upgrade the panel.

[SoCal_NSX]

Originally Posted by chad86tsi

https://electrek.co/2021/10/27/detro...s-cars-report/

^ Doesn't address the cost of a home charger at all, and doesn't calculate deadhead time at all as if it is free (time, energy, and miles of usage) to drive around looking for a place to charge.

https://www.thewattcar.com/home/ande...ed-assumptions

^ Uses personal anecdote that a level 2charger costs $325, when national averages run $700-$2000, and doesn't calculate deadhead time at all as if it is free (time, energy, and miles of usage) to drive around looking for a place to charge.


https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a3...ost-questions/

^ Already addressed this one. Same issues.

Just ignore these facts and EV becomes simply better. I'll give you that it's cheaper for most right now absent all the variables one must deal with.

yeah, lets throw in the most expensive home chargers in to the cost, then just leave home charging out of the equation and only use the most expensive charging stations

let's leave out oil changes, brake jobs, etc too... cuz it ruins the experiment

btw, I got a quote for $695 today for an oil change on my 718

let's just ignore every other study in the world that pretty much shows it is much cheaper in actual cost per mile using an EV vs gas

I don't even own an EV, but I'm not gonna bury my head in the sand or defend some ridiculous study that has already been debunked by several other studies and articles as being pure horse shit...

like I said, if you're buying that study, I have ocean front property in AZ for sale

[BGM-M3COMP]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

end of the day...that study is laughable

click bait type article and study bought and paid for by big oil cherry picking the best MPG cars on the road driven by old ladies and even then, it is still no comparison when it comes to actual cost per mile...google it

https://www.google.com/search?client...UTF-8&oe=UTF-8


It costs an average of $55.70 to charge an electric car for a month and $668.40 to charge it for a year if you’re only charging at home.
In general, charging an EV is approximately 3.5 times cheaper per mile than the cost of fueling a gas-powered car. Based on driving a compact sedan, you will pay approximately $0.04 per mile to charge your EV compared to $0.14 to fuel your gas-powered car.
While you’ll likely pay more upfront for an EV than a comparable gas car, EVs are typically cheaper over their lifetime.
The cost of charging an EV will depend on several factors, including your electricity source, the size of your EV’s battery, the type of EV charger you use, where you live, and when you charge your EV.


The average internal combustion engine car today can be expected to last 200,000 miles, according to Car and Driver, which makes maintaining a traditional vehicle about $20,200 and an EV $12,200 — an $8,000 difference.
When it reaches 300,000 miles, the gas cars would cost $30,300 for maintenance and EVs cost $18,300 — a difference of $12,000.
Even a cheaper gas-powered vehicle like the Atlas Cross Sport, a five-passenger SUV, which cost around $31,000 at its lowest, the additional $20,200 after driving for a long period of time makes it more expensive than Volkswagen ID.4 at $40,000.
It all boils down to maintenance.

Big Time facts.

Finally more sensible people in these ev threads.

[chad86tsi]

Originally Posted by SoCal_NSX

yeah, lets throw in the most expensive home chargers in to the cost, then just leave home charging out of the equation and only use the most expensive charging stations

Electricians and permits are free for you?

let's leave out oil changes, brake jobs, etc too... cuz it ruins the experiment

Do you have to buy them upfront? I though EV's had brakes

btw, I got a quote for $695 today for an oil change on my 718

Well you do your own unpermitted electrical upgrades, so I'm sure you can change your own oil too.

let's just ignore every other study in the world that pretty much shows it is much cheaper in actual cost per mile using an EV vs gas

Why not, your retorts ignored actual points made in the study they were deconstructing. Because that's good journalism, and reputable source material for proving points.

[dreamingat30fps]

I charge my model 3 at home with the basic slow 5 mi/hour charger that came with it. Last I looked at my bill I pay between $0.04 & $0.08/kWh for power and my model 3 has a 75kWh battery. So worst case scenario at the highest rate it's around $6 to fully charge it.

Maybe my calculation is wrong, but here's the thing. If it cost me $50 to charge or $70 or whatever it costs to fill up a gas car... I would still own it. I don't own an EV to save money on gas or save the polar bears or any of that.

If you want to save money buy a cheap used Toyota and drive it till the wheels fall off.

[TargaM2]

Originally Posted by dreamingat30fps

I charge my model 3 at home with the basic slow 5 mi/hour charger that came with it. Last I looked at my bill I pay between $0.04 & $0.08/kWh for power and my model 3 has a 75kWh battery. So worst case scenario at the highest rate it's around $6 to fully charge it.

Maybe my calculation is wrong, but here's the thing. If it cost me $50 to charge or $70 or whatever it costs to fill up a gas car... I would still own it. I don't own an EV to save money on gas or save the polar bears or any of that.

If you want to save money buy a cheap used Toyota and drive it till the wheels fall off.

Well said 👍.
A sensible post from an EV user that doesn’t think he’s some sort of hero & better than others because he’s an early adopter of an ALTERNATIVE fuel source.
The last line in the above post is factual…if you REALLY want to save money & contribute less to the environmental impact through manufacturing therefore pollution simply buy a cheap used car & drive it till it fails then repeat over & over & over again.
The rest of you are simply buying an EV because you want to feel ‘special’ or trendy or you simply like Teslas or whatever (which is fine) so let’s not dress it up into something else.
You don’t need to make excuses for your purchase & neither do those that buy ICE cars. But let’s stop with the whole ‘I’m saving the planet’ bullshit shall we.

[Cos270]

Originally Posted by TargaM2

EV discussion starts around 15 minute mark…
No they aren’t American (thank god) so this discussion is for those that aren’t completely self absorbed.
Most performance car enthusiasts outside of the US will know who Sam is, (for those in the US go ask car enthusiast Jerry Seinfeld). An interesting take that usability has still not improved in the EV structure in the past couple of years despite there being many more players.
The comparison to the whole diesel push from governments several years ago is worth considering too.
Again the manufacturers will always build good cars & make a profit regardless of what you give them to work with, the problem lies in the infrastructure & supporting networks required to make this whole EV takeover work.
This EV push is absolutely worthless unless countries such China & India get fully on board as they are the big consumers/polluters & unless these governments get involved & put their money where there mouth is by way of huge tax breaks & rebates etc there is currently no way the average citizen from these countries can buy a new EV & throw it away every ten years or so. Until we have multiple competing manufacturers selling EVs’ for the same price of a new Chinese/Korean eco box & more importantly an infrastructure to support it (which is likely still decades away) what incentive is there for these people to buy an EV. They simply can’t afford to consider the environment & therefore don’t.
Thus those of us in wealthier countries buying a new Tesla instead of an M3 or whatever may feel like an enviro-hero but in the grand scheme we are contributing nothing. We are currently just simply purchasing another different brand of car.
https://youtu.be/-mx9Xy3gPmQ

Just commenting because no one else will probably pay this any mind, but it's absolutely right. If the data and studies that have been done are to be believed, we have made our bed and now its time to lie in it. The delusional thinking that if developed countries meet their carbon neutral goals it will have any affect beyond marginal is insulting.

[TargaM2]

I don’t want to get into the nitpicking over numbers/sources etc as it’s just childish & contributes zero, however I will ask one question…what about the cost factor of when your EV is 10 years old & the battery fails ?.
The other interesting consideration is whether the current type of batteries being used in EVs will even be compatible with new charger tech in 10 years or so ? These are unknowns that those of us that aren’t short sighted & self absorbed do consider.
The only real stumbling block to ICE cars I can recall in recent history was the adoption of unleaded fuel in the 1980s which required older cars built to run on leaded fuel have hardened valve seats added to cylinder heads or simply an additive poured into each tank of fuel. Other than that pretty much any ICE car regardless of age can still use todays fuel source. Will the same be true of EV cars ? I’m not so sure.
…let me guess the response…crickets…