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      05-13-2016, 11:07 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by MightyMouseTech View Post
Cool, a Canadian made BMW. Magna also built the smart car chassis.
Highly unlikely that production would not take place in Graz, Austria.
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      05-13-2016, 11:20 PM   #24
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You guys know that Magna-Styr built the greatest modern BMW, right?

If it weren't for Magna-Styr the MZ4 Coupe would have never happened. Magma Styr showed BMW they can build the stiffest chassis BMW has EVER built by simply making a coupe version of the E85 Z4 using only a handful of new parts (roof, hatch, and associated hardware). End result is a 32,000Nm/degree deflection car that hasn't been surpassed in nearly 10 years, and likely won't be surpassed in the near future in terms of chassis rigidity from BMW, and a 3,200 frame mated to the greatest inline-6 ever built.
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      05-13-2016, 11:21 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
It's a shame no coupe version is being planned because that'd likely increase demand. Considerably.
How do you figure? There were barely any Z3 and Z4 coupes sold. Most people didn't even know it existed.
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      05-14-2016, 02:09 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
It's a shame no coupe version is being planned because that'd likely increase demand. Considerably.
How do you figure? There were barely any Z3 and Z4 coupes sold. Most people didn't even know it existed.
And the dealers had to give them away.
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      05-14-2016, 03:53 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by afadeev View Post
It's almost reads like a proposal for an experiment on "how little can we do, and still put a Roundel onto sheet metal".

a
Kind of like the CLA lol
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      05-14-2016, 04:18 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by SCOTT26 View Post
This is incorrect. As you will see they have invested much time and resources. It is known as the Pooled resources concept so it is developed jointly with the best engineers from Toyota and BMW.
It is very advanced for its segment with its pooled resources of lightweight materials.
Glad to hear that Z5 is coming. Support the direction of pooled resources with Toyota but really can't be happy about the fact that they are opting to have the more focused version from a drive point of view go to Toyota.

I have a feeling they will gain more than cost savings out of this deal and use BMW to get a dynamic leg up to thier Japanese muscle car nameplate.

It is sad that no coupe or M is planned for this project and the tech and production cost savings that could bring a truly interesting car will be capped because of flawed past efforts.

Last edited by N & M; 05-14-2016 at 04:20 AM.. Reason: Grammar corrections.
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      05-14-2016, 04:43 AM   #29
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I hope the build quality will be better than the E83 X3 that they produced.
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      05-14-2016, 02:10 PM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris330
Looks to me like BMW are just not that interested in investing too much time and effort in to the Z5
actually Magna Steyr is an excellent manufacturer which has been used by plenty of German brands.
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      05-14-2016, 06:20 PM   #31
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I"m no expert but it seems like there are 5 roadster markets:

* Economy roadsters, e.g., miata, mini, kia, 370z
* Sport-Luxury roadsters, e.g., benz SL, audi TT
* performance roadsters, e.g., corvette, boxster, f-type, alpha 4C
* Ultra-Lux roadsters, e.g., SL55/65,
* Ultra-performance, e.g., R8, Mclaren, 911, DB9

The Z4 is obviously in the 2nd bucket but I don't think BMW has a strong customer brand for that market. Benz does because they've got an aspirational / cruiser chic. Audi does because they've got the artsy-techno chic. BMW has a performance chic, but they've also got the 1/2-series and 3/4-series which fit their performance reputation with more practicality.

In short the BMW roadster buyer was probably either economy-performance oriented or stretching up; when the economy crashed BMW lost the up-stretch and lost performance buyers to competition including its own lines.

If BMW wants to compete in the roadster market maybe they should move up market and backwards to their normal path: build a pure M-roadster and then have an m-sport version of it ... i.e., create a true track-worthy boxster competitor that's not a convertible version of a coupe/sedan, rather, a unique convertible offering. Porsche has pulled this off and I think BMW could too.

All of that said, I'm biased because I still think the Z4 is the best looking roadster in its class, but I wouldn't buy it because it's not an M-car in capability. My next car (2017) will be another M4 vert or the new C63, but if it existed, it'd be an Z4M.

Unfortunately this new thing definitely doesn't seem like a Z4M
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      05-14-2016, 06:31 PM   #32
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BMW's world class engineers could build a worthy Porsche Boxster competitor if they were allowed to do so, no doubt. Yet BMW refuses to get into the ring. Warum BMW ?
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      05-14-2016, 06:55 PM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raj59
I hope the build quality will be better than the E83 X3 that they produced.
That issues that car had was more of the suppliers vs the actual manufacturing.
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      05-14-2016, 07:27 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete View Post
BMW's world class engineers could build a worthy Porsche Boxster competitor if they were allowed to do so, no doubt. Yet BMW refuses to get into the ring. Warum BMW ?
I'd guess it's because BMW is waiting to see where electric goes.

BMW could build Boxster and 911 / Benz GT competitors but they decided to go with the i8 to try to enter the market "sideways" with an electric offering and skip the transition of combustion to electric.

If that's true it's an interesting strategy .... the best case scenario is that BMW establishes a completely new segment and brand that in performance circles becomes the new "electric 911": i8M or whatever. The risk is that in not establishing combustion Porsche performance competitors they're never able to establish a foothold and lose that market entirely (as has happened until now).

Benz has taken the opposite approach: dive into competition with 911 on combustion, establish the GT brand, and then transition to electric if needed. That seems like a less risky approach product-wise, but maybe not financially for BMW.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      05-14-2016, 10:06 PM   #35
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Why this post not in Z4 forum?
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      05-14-2016, 10:13 PM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bigmouth Studio
Why this post not in Z4 forum?


Because, Z5 !
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      05-15-2016, 08:19 AM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Racer20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
It's a shame no coupe version is being planned because that'd likely increase demand. Considerably.
How do you figure? There were barely any Z3 and Z4 coupes sold. Most people didn't even know it existed.
Because trends and tastes have changed in the meantime, and as GrussGott notes, BMW has lost its market share with the Z3/4 in its roadster segment. What BMW needs to do with the Z5 is re-position it -- particularly compared to the Toyota variant, of which if a Supra results will almost certainly have a coupe version -- and re-establish market share. In my mind there are only two ways it can go: ultraluxury (and why do that while touting lightness, etc? Doesn't make sense) or functional performance.

There's significant interest in a small, low BMW coupe if this board is any indication. Recent production/prototype plans by Porsche (new Panamera) and Toyota (Type 88 variant) itself suggest the shooting brake body style is gaining favor. No one competes directly with the Cayman -- and the two cars closest to it, the M2 and the Corvette, are not really the same type of car (In fact, an argument can be made that the Cayman's closest competitor function-wise is actually the Alfa 4C). So: who better to build that than BMW?

Personally I think BMW sees that as too large a gamble, particularly with Toyota mucking up the car's developmental pedigree. BMW's between a rock and a hard place regarding how to position it in the marketplace. And so the car's potential is stillborn -- and banished to Graz with MINI.
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      05-15-2016, 08:33 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK
You guys know that Magna-Styr built the greatest modern BMW, right?

If it weren't for Magna-Styr the MZ4 Coupe would have never happened. Magma Styr showed BMW they can build the stiffest chassis BMW has EVER built by simply making a coupe version of the E85 Z4 using only a handful of new parts (roof, hatch, and associated hardware). End result is a 32,000Nm/degree deflection car that hasn't been surpassed in nearly 10 years, and likely won't be surpassed in the near future in terms of chassis rigidity from BMW, and a 3,200 frame mated to the greatest inline-6 ever built.
Except it was ugly, and not as good as a Cayman.
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      05-15-2016, 12:05 PM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Die ///M Rakete
BMW's world class engineers could build a worthy Porsche Boxster competitor if they were allowed to do so, no doubt. Yet BMW refuses to get into the ring. Warum BMW ?
I'd guess it's because BMW is waiting to see where electric goes.
Perhaps.

But also because 2-seater roadster market has always been fairly small.
Cool (I personally love Z4 shape), but small.

At its heyday, with 007 promotion, Z3 US sales were at most 20K cars per year. Both Z3 and Z4 have hit 20K/year sales three times, but could never exceed it. In 2015, the sales were down to 1.8K in the US:
http://left-lane.com/us-car-sales-data/bmw/bmw-z4/

That's i3 sales territory at best, i8 at worst.

Alas, Z4's 3.5is price point is now higher than M4's. How does that make any sense?
M4 convertible is only $8K more, but with far better options and interior materials, not to mention better interior space and performance.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
BMW could build Boxster and 911 / Benz GT competitors but they decided to go with the i8 to try to enter the market "sideways" with an electric offering and skip the transition of combustion to electric.
i8 is a hybrid, and is more of a technology demonstration platform (CF, EV front, ICE rear engine propulsion) than Z-series replacement.

Plus i8 looks awesome and exotic, something the Z-cars could never claim (at least not the exotic part).

No matter how you slice it, Z-car sales were never large enough to support a dedicated model line. Luckily, BMW found partners to prop-up Z-model for another cycle, at minimal cost (outsource production to Magna, share body with Toyota).

If BMW was serious about Z, it should re-skin i3 into something resembling a Z-car, and sell the iZ3 at i3's $50 price point: light, futuristic, and hopefully, not too ugly.

a
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Last edited by afadeev; 05-15-2016 at 02:10 PM..
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      05-15-2016, 12:10 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viffermike View Post
No one competes directly with the Cayman ... So: who better to build that than BMW?

... BMW's between a rock and a hard place regarding how to position it ... and banished to Graz with MINI.
+1 I think this nails the facts anyway, but damn i wish they were cooking up a pure M cayman/boxster competitor and/or a 911 carrera/cabriolet competitor.

Leave the Z5 as is, and build a pure M Z8.

Management may feel the 6-series/M6 never was able to compete with the Benz SL class and command near the premium, so they're skiddish but it could be argued that BMW's brand is now more performance-luxury than luxury-performance. If that's true then they're making a strategic mistake not taking on Porsche - Audi has done it with the R8, and now Benz with the GT. That segment pie is growing and BMW's not in it.

BMW seems to be hoping that the i8 flanks all of them but that's looking like a bad bet ... Tesla and Faraday Future, not to mention Porsche themselves, are going after that pie meanwhile plenty of GTs and 911s are moving off lots.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      05-15-2016, 01:39 PM   #41
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New Rendering.
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      05-15-2016, 02:37 PM   #42
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^^ I like the sketch of the 4-door Z you posted earlier much more, the front on that thing is perfect
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      05-15-2016, 05:34 PM   #43
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No one competes with the boxster/cayman because Porsche has already proven no one buys them. Total global production of cayman/boxsters in 2015 was around 20k split almost evenly vs 150k+ 2-series cars. The market is so small it's not even worth competing. I hope BMW does make a worthy competitor but from a price/offering perspective it will need to appeal to a broader range than in the past to support sales and an M variant.
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      05-15-2016, 08:14 PM   #44
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This looks more like a 6-series clone, than anything Z-related!

Wait, how come 6's are outselling the Z's, lately by a 4x margin, no less:
http://left-lane.com/us-car-sales-da.../bmw-6-series/



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