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      06-16-2020, 08:35 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
How do you go from being the car company that builds the first mainstream hybrid, a legendary sports car and have a top notch luxury car brand to a company that outsources sports car, drops any serious hybrid / electric development, sells 15 year old tech in most of its cars and has the worst dealership experience in the industry. I mean you have to really hate cars to buy a Toyota in my opinion.
The reality is that the masses really aren't enthusiasts. The typical consumer doesn't care about handling dynamics, performance, or style. They just want a reliable appliance that takes them from A to B. Have you walked into a Toyota dealership? It's basically a senior citizens gathering with a sprinkling of middle aged couples. I'm being dead serious when I say Toyota could bring back a 3 generation old Camry untouched, sell it as a new model and it would probably do modest sales as the typical Toyota buyer really has no clue about the level of tech in their vehicle and is purchasing solely on reputation.
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      06-16-2020, 09:07 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Lexus suffers what Toyota suffers albeit in a much much higher and far more demanding price category... doesn't fly here.

Reused old engines, trannies, odd styling and virtually nothing exciting in the lineup makes it a dud on arrival. Your highlighted comment is pretty much it.. which is the same as the Toyota crowd.
But overall Toyotas are certainly more class competitive than Lexus is. The current Corolla, Camry, Rav4, Highlander, Tacoma, etc. are among the best in their respective segments.

Prius, 4Runner, Sequoia, Land Cruiser are mediocre but people can't get enough of the 4Runner for some reason.
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      06-16-2020, 09:08 PM   #47
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Looks like Toyota/Lexus is backing away from the grill theme from the past couple of years.
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      06-16-2020, 09:10 PM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Lexus suffers what Toyota suffers albeit in a much much higher and far more demanding price category... doesn't fly here.

Reused old engines, trannies, odd styling and virtually nothing exciting in the lineup makes it a dud on arrival. Your highlighted comment is pretty much it.. which is the same as the Toyota crowd.
But overall Toyotas are certainly more class competitive than Lexus is. The current Corolla, Camry, Rav4, Highlander, Tacoma, etc. are among the best in their respective segments.

Prius, 4Runner, Sequoia, Land Cruiser are mediocre but people can't get enough of the 4Runner for some reason.
Agree, the Corolla, Rav4, Camry and Highlander benefit greatly from Toyota keeping a 3-4 year product cycle even if they do end up using the same powertrain as before, at least styling wise they are kept fresh and appeal is high for those vehicles. Why on earth they haven't redone the Sequoia in a world that demands large SUV's is beyond me though, I mean they are seriously missing out on the Tahoe/Suburban/Expedition market, and for a brand that revolutionized the Hybrid, to not want to make an EV is seriously a head scratcher. Prius buyers are now moving to Tesla and aren't looking back.
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      06-16-2020, 09:20 PM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Lexus suffers what Toyota suffers albeit in a much much higher and far more demanding price category... doesn't fly here.

Reused old engines, trannies, odd styling and virtually nothing exciting in the lineup makes it a dud on arrival. Your highlighted comment is pretty much it.. which is the same as the Toyota crowd.
But overall Toyotas are certainly more class competitive than Lexus is. The current Corolla, Camry, Rav4, Highlander, Tacoma, etc. are among the best in their respective segments.

Prius, 4Runner, Sequoia, Land Cruiser are mediocre but people can't get enough of the 4Runner for some reason.
The Tacoma survives because it is the only truck in its class... this truck runs rear drum brakes fwiw... no more needs to be said.

The Rav4 and New Highlander, I will agree are the only decent vehicles in the lineup. The styling is decent and the tech is updated albeit they are stil running on ancient drivetrains.

The Camry and Corolla are imho jokes compared to the Accord and Civic.... both of which have modern powertrains, gearboxes, and much much better infotainment systems... oh and both at least somewhat reminiscent of maybe an enthusiast dieing next to one 15 years ago... the Toyotas are none of those. Toyota made a Camry Trd (turd) and literally advertised it as an autocross car... i think they know their audience perfectly; and its an audience that neither knows anything about cars nor remotely cares about them.
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      06-16-2020, 09:45 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
The Tacoma survives because it is the only truck in its class... this truck runs rear drum brakes fwiw... no more needs to be said.

The Rav4 and New Highlander, I will agree are the only decent vehicles in the lineup. The styling is decent and the tech is updated albeit they are stil running on ancient drivetrains.

The Camry and Corolla are imho jokes compared to the Accord and Civic.... both of which have modern powertrains, gearboxes, and much much better infotainment systems... oh and both at least somewhat reminiscent of maybe an enthusiast dieing next to one 15 years ago... the Toyotas are none of those. Toyota made a Camry Trd (turd) and literally advertised it as an autocross car... i think they know their audience perfectly; and its an audience that neither knows anything about cars nor remotely cares about them.
Fair points. But think of where Toyota stacks up relative to all the automakers they compete with: GM's divisions, Ford, FCA, VW, Kia, Hyundai, Honda, Nissan.

I agree Hondas are generally better cars. Of course Hyundai/Kia have the class-leading Telluride/Palisade. The Big 3 dominate in trucks and large SUVs. But I'd say overall looking at their entire portfolio, combined with their proven reliability record and stronger residuals, Toyota is pretty among the best in this crowd.
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      06-17-2020, 12:27 AM   #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ASAP View Post
Toyota has the means and resources to do just about anything... a real Supra as an example... but they run on higher margins and spend $5 a year on R&D while selling to an unsuspecting crowd that believes in ancient tech and a false premise of reliability (even when they are no longer remotely towards the top on the metric).

Tacoma, 4runner are ancient jokes at best... Tundra same story.

Corolla, Camry and Avalon are cheap FWD cars that have a colorful infotainment system but that and their reliability is good enough for most people...

Not one modern turbo engine, gearbox or drivetrain system in the entire lineup...

I feel Toyota peaked when they created the Prius and dominated the market... soon after they took a massive dump...

How do you go from being the car company that builds the first mainstream hybrid, a legendary sports car and have a top notch luxury car brand to a company that outsources sports car, drops any serious hybrid / electric development, sells 15 year old tech in most of its cars and has the worst dealership experience in the industry. I mean you have to really hate cars to buy a Toyota in my opinion.
Toyota knows what the hell they are doing.

Sand-colored tacomas and tundras. End of story.
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      06-17-2020, 12:38 AM   #52
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I think we're missing the important thing here. Like a 3.5L V6 that somehow ONLY produces 260 hp in the year 2020.
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      06-17-2020, 08:25 AM   #53
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I think we're missing the important thing here. Like a 3.5L V6 that somehow ONLY produces 260 hp in the year 2020.
The 2GR has been around for 20 years. Never innovating is how Toyota earns their reliability reputation.
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      06-17-2020, 08:42 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
But overall Toyotas are certainly more class competitive than Lexus is. The current Corolla, Camry, Rav4, Highlander, Tacoma, etc. are among the best in their respective segments.

Prius, 4Runner, Sequoia, Land Cruiser are mediocre but people can't get enough of the 4Runner for some reason.
Are any of you actually driving these vehicles? My father in law has a 2020 RAV4 that I have driven several times. It's thoroughly mediocre (engine noise and vibration in particular is horrendous) considering how expensive they can get when fully optioned. There is no way anyone should purchase one of these over a CR-V or CX-5 that are of higher quality and do everything better. It's such a shame people flock to pay a premium for Toyotas when they are at best middle of their class in everything.
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      06-17-2020, 01:19 PM   #55
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The 2GR has been around for 20 years. Never innovating is how Toyota earns their reliability reputation.
even though... somehow JD power and facts don't back that up...
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      06-17-2020, 01:20 PM   #56
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Are any of you actually driving these vehicles? My father in law has a 2020 RAV4 that I have driven several times. It's thoroughly mediocre (engine noise and vibration in particular is horrendous) considering how expensive they can get when fully optioned. There is no way anyone should purchase one of these over a CR-V or CX-5 that are of higher quality and do everything better. It's such a shame people flock to pay a premium for Toyotas when they are at best middle of their class in everything.
You can't reason with a true Toyota owner.
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      06-17-2020, 06:16 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Are any of you actually driving these vehicles? My father in law has a 2020 RAV4 that I have driven several times. It's thoroughly mediocre (engine noise and vibration in particular is horrendous) considering how expensive they can get when fully optioned. There is no way anyone should purchase one of these over a CR-V or CX-5 that are of higher quality and do everything better. It's such a shame people flock to pay a premium for Toyotas when they are at best middle of their class in everything.
Consumers in that segment care more about the overall package + reliability record than having a dog of an engine. The Rav4 has high marks overall, reviews have been very positive.

I do agree that Mazda does not get enough credit from consumers.
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      06-17-2020, 09:03 PM   #58
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      06-17-2020, 11:01 PM   #59
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What the world needs now is moar grille.
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      06-18-2020, 08:03 AM   #60
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It looks as good as the 3series. And I think the interior looks better.
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      06-18-2020, 12:17 PM   #61
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Toyota has the means and resources to do just about anything... a real Supra as an example...
Details are limited, but Toyota is in the initial phase of developing the next Supra in-house as a hybrid according to our Toyota engineer/insider.

According to Bimmerpost's insider the Zupra will end production on 10/2025.

2025 is also when "Toyota pledges to go all-electric or hybrid by 2025."

Take all of this with a gain of salt, but everything seems to be fitting together.
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      06-18-2020, 12:42 PM   #62
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Details are limited, but Toyota is in the initial phase of developing the next Supra in-house as a hybrid according to our Toyota engineer/insider.

According to Bimmerpost's insider the Zupra will end production on 10/2025.

2025 is also when "Toyota pledges to go all-electric or hybrid by 2025."

Take all of this with a gain of salt, but everything seems to be fitting together.
May you're going to get hit with the old switcheroo... this thing will be a 3 row SUV by that time lol... like the Mustang SUV and Eclipse SUV crap
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      06-18-2020, 12:46 PM   #63
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What is it with these HUGE grills? Horrendous.

I do like the interior.

Last edited by ny325; 06-18-2020 at 12:58 PM..
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      06-18-2020, 12:51 PM   #64
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May you're going to get hit with the old switcheroo... this thing will be a 3 row SUV by that time lol... like the Mustang SUV and Eclipse SUV crap
Lol, we'll just have to wait and see. Hopefully I'll still be alive in 2025 to find out.
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      06-22-2020, 09:16 AM   #65
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What we were hoping for



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      06-22-2020, 10:21 AM   #66
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What we were hoping for



Yeah this is what we were anticipating; coupled along with some I-6 twin turbo Bavarian love for a power plant.....or in this case a new IS-F with a V-8.
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