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      09-21-2020, 04:48 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by AustinPowers007 View Post
Once again, your premise is flawed. How do you know BMW would only sell 500 Z4s with 6MT in North America? You have no concrete evidence to back up your claim. The popularity of the 6MT on the current Mazda Miata and Porsche Boxster 718 refutes your assertion that it "will soon go the way of the dodo."
And you have no concrete evidence to prove that the 6MT Z4 would sell. It is a silly argument.
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      09-21-2020, 07:43 PM   #24
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And you have no concrete evidence to prove that the 6MT Z4 would sell. It is a silly argument.
Ah, but I wasn't the one making a specific claim about how many units BMW would be able to sell. That was you, sir. The fact of the matter is that Porsche and Mazda continue to sell roadsters with manual transmissions in every geographical market they serve, including North America. My hunch is that sufficient demand exists for a manual transmission Z4 here to make it a worthwhile offering. I hope BMW sees fit to do so next year.
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      09-21-2020, 08:01 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by AustinPowers007 View Post
Ah, but I wasn't the one making a specific claim about how many units BMW would be able to sell. That was you, sir. The fact of the matter is that Porsche and Mazda continue to sell roadsters with manual transmissions in every geographical market they serve, including North America. My hunch is that sufficient demand exists for a manual transmission Z4 here to make it a worthwhile offering. I hope BMW sees fit to do so next year.
I never said anything about how many units BMW could sell. Have no idea where you got that. I will be surprised if they put a 6MT in a US Z4.

Jaguar is a good example:

"When Jaguar first revealed the F-Type back in 2013, the only transmission choice was an eight-speed automatic (much to the dismay of enthusiasts). Frankly, the eight-speed auto box was fantastic but it didn't stop people on the internet from complaining. In 2015, Jaguar caved in to demand and gave the F-Type an optional six-speed manual transmission.

And of course, since there was "such an upswell of demand" from enthusiasts, almost none of them went out and actually bought one. As it turns out, people on the internet are much more likely to bang on their keyboards rather than go into a showroom and buy what they said they wanted. The sales figure don't lie, so Jaguar decided to discontinue the manual option for the 2020 model year, leaving the automatic as the only option."

https://carbuzz.com/news/now-is-the-...-jaguar-f-type
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      09-22-2020, 12:57 AM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SakhirM4 View Post
I never said anything about how many units BMW could sell. Have no idea where you got that. I will be surprised if they put a 6MT in a US Z4.

Jaguar is a good example:

"When Jaguar first revealed the F-Type back in 2013, the only transmission choice was an eight-speed automatic (much to the dismay of enthusiasts). Frankly, the eight-speed auto box was fantastic but it didn't stop people on the internet from complaining. In 2015, Jaguar caved in to demand and gave the F-Type an optional six-speed manual transmission.

And of course, since there was "such an upswell of demand" from enthusiasts, almost none of them went out and actually bought one. As it turns out, people on the internet are much more likely to bang on their keyboards rather than go into a showroom and buy what they said they wanted. The sales figure don't lie, so Jaguar decided to discontinue the manual option for the 2020 model year, leaving the automatic as the only option."

https://carbuzz.com/news/now-is-the-...-jaguar-f-type
Sorry, it was another commenter (German1967) who said 500 units. I don't really think the Jaguar F-Type situation is comparable to that of the BMW Z series, which has always included a manual transmission option since its inception. Until now.
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      09-22-2020, 12:32 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by AustinPowers007 View Post
Sorry, it was another commenter (German1967) who said 500 units. I don't really think the Jaguar F-Type situation is comparable to that of the BMW Z series, which has always included a manual transmission option since its inception. Until now.
The Jag situation is absolutely exactly the same as the current Z4 situation. The Jag roadster always had a manual as well.
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      09-22-2020, 01:02 PM   #28
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yeah, in addition (just like the Z4) you couldn't get the MT in the F type with the top engine ( V8) only the 6cyl.

I owned an F type V8 with the ZF8 and loved it too.

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      09-22-2020, 01:49 PM   #29
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinPowers007 View Post
Sorry, it was another commenter (German1967) who said 500 units. I don't really think the Jaguar F-Type situation is comparable to that of the BMW Z series, which has always included a manual transmission option since its inception. Until now.
The Jag situation is absolutely exactly the same as the current Z4 situation. The Jag roadster always had a manual as well.
No, not the same at all. The Jaguar F-Type is a revival of a decades-old roadster concept, but bears little resemblance to the original Jaguar E-Type roadster that was discontinued in 1975. The current BMW Z4 is the latest iteration of an ongoing series that has always (until now) offered a manual transmission option in North America.
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      09-27-2020, 02:52 AM   #30
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BMW have the stats. There is a hunger for manual transmissions, but most customers choose automatic. I only drive my car in Sport+ using the paddle shifters. On my X5 though...never been used...
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      09-27-2020, 09:59 AM   #31
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Unfortunately manuals will be extinct soon enough

Car makers are in the business of making money. Facing increased emissions regulations around the world (super aggressive in Europe for sure) if an automatic transmission saves a carmaker even 0.5 MPG vs a manual they will embrace it. In the end, carmakers like market share and want to gain customers but they also have to follow regulatory rules first so they can make money. With the adoption of 8, 9, 10 speed highly efficient automatics my sense is that even Porsche will have to give up on manuals eventually. BMW is certainly not going to spend the money to do a manual for a car like the G29 where there are minuscule sales.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinPowers007 View Post
Not sure why you feel so compelled to be argumentative here. Car manufacturers, BMW included, don't always make sound marketing decisions that mesh with consumer preferences. Just look at the hideous grill of the new 4 series if you need proof! As you pointed out, nearly one in five M4 buyers opt for the 6MT, and BMW has seen fit to continue offering that option in the 2021 model. And it's a well known fact that roadster buyers tend to have a stronger preference for manuals.

So yes, it is my OPINION that demand would be there for a Z4 with 6MT based on having owned BMWs for more than 25 years and being in touch with a great many fellow BMW owners. Unlike you, I don't automatically assume that BMW knows best in having made the decision (so far) not to offer a 6MT option in North America.
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      09-29-2020, 09:45 PM   #32
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Auto Trans are so perfected that there is no need for it anymore. You cannot shift faster. You can still shift the car Manually if you want. Why the need for a clutch and a Shifter. Don"t give me that purist bullshit either. Formula One cars don't use them. They shift with paddles just like the Z4. Yes Formula One cars have a clutch but its just used to engage the car to get started.
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      09-30-2020, 12:45 AM   #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gasnet View Post
Auto Trans are so perfected that there is no need for it anymore. You cannot shift faster. You can still shift the car Manually if you want. Why the need for a clutch and a Shifter. Don"t give me that purist bullshit either. Formula One cars don't use them. They shift with paddles just like the Z4. Yes Formula One cars have a clutch but its just used to engage the car to get started.

Your first sentence about "need" shows that you're missing the point. I've already acknowledged that the best automatic transmissions can propel a car from 0-60 mph faster than a 6-speed manual. You can call my preference for 6MT "purist bullshit" all you want, but the fact remains that there's no substitute for the unadulterated fun and driver involvement provided by a traditional clutch-based transmission. Which is why Porsche still offers them on the 718 and 911 series, and why BMW continues to offer them on M240i, M2, M3 and M4 models. While it appears doubtful that BMW will see fit to sell the manual transmission Z4 in North America, a man can dream can't he?

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      09-30-2020, 07:20 PM   #34
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If its fun for you to shift than have at it. But it has no place on a real racetrack anymore. And soon on every racetrack within 10 years. In Europe manual transmissions are popular because they are cheaper and thats what there use to. When i travel to Europe my rental is always a Manual. Thats why its available on Porsche and every other euro car.
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      10-01-2020, 01:26 PM   #35
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If its fun for you to shift than have at it. But it has no place on a real racetrack anymore. And soon on every racetrack within 10 years. In Europe manual transmissions are popular because they are cheaper and thats what there use to. When i travel to Europe my rental is always a Manual. Thats why its available on Porsche and every other euro car.
Manual transmissions have "no place on a real racetrack anymore," you say? Who appointed you the arbiter of what belongs on a racetrack? Tone down your know-it-all arrogance, officer.

Here's an excerpt from a great article in last month's Car and Driver Magazine:

"We can't claim that the manual transmission will beat the best automatic on a racetrack, but there's bliss in executing a perfect upshift or heel-toe downshift. It's fun to hone a skill, to feel a gearbox snick into gear in your palm as the tach needle kisses redline. Entertainment breeds enthusiasm, enthusiasm brings converts, and an automatic—no matter how great it is on a spreadsheet—can't deliver that kind of joy."

Link to article: https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...-transmission/

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      10-01-2020, 02:10 PM   #36
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I'm old so I've been driving since 1983. In that time, I've owned 29 vehicles; eleven manuals and 18 autos. The manuals have been everything from a "three on the tree" to modern 6 spds and the autos have been everything from a two speed powerglide to a ZF8. I have driven my 6 spd daily driver for the past 18 years. In addition to those vehicles I've owned, ridden and raced 41 motorcycles, all of which were standard transmissions.

My take on all this is that I do understand the allure and nostalgia for the manual and I think their dissappearance is sad. .....but while it's sad, it's also understandable - automatic transmissions have changed drastically since the 2 spd in my 1967 Cutlass while manuals are mostly the same as the 4spd in my 1979 Z28....albeit with another gear or two.

I won't argue against the "fun factor" of a manual - I'm well aware.....but frankly, I don't miss the clutch when I'm driving the Z4. Maybe I'd feel differently if I didn't currently own 6 other motor vehicles with standard transmissions.

The argument that a current 8 speed, paddle shifted auto or DCT isn't a "real" sportscar is a load of BS IMO and some of the best cars on the planet don't offer a manual.....but I can find no fault in those that still want to "row their own".

As far as the Z4 goes, I have zero interest in a 4cyl Z4 regardless of transmission.

2 cents,
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      10-01-2020, 03:12 PM   #37
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I'm old so I've been driving since 1983. In that time, I've owned 29 vehicles; eleven manuals and 18 autos. The manuals have been everything from a "three on the tree" to modern 6 spds and the autos have been everything from a two speed powerglide to a ZF8. I have driven my 6 spd daily driver for the past 18 years. In addition to those vehicles I've owned, ridden and raced 41 motorcycles, all of which were standard transmissions.

My take on all this is that I do understand the allure and nostalgia for the manual and I think their dissappearance is sad. .....but while it's sad, it's also understandable - automatic transmissions have changed drastically since the 2 spd in my 1967 Cutlass while manuals are mostly the same as the 4spd in my 1979 Z28....albeit with another gear or two.

I won't argue against the "fun factor" of a manual - I'm well aware.....but frankly, I don't miss the clutch when I'm driving the Z4. Maybe I'd feel differently if I didn't currently own 6 other motor vehicles with standard transmissions.

The argument that a current 8 speed, paddle shifted auto or DCT isn't a "real" sportscar is a load of BS IMO and some of the best cars on the planet don't offer a manual.....but I can find no fault in those that still want to "row their own".

As far as the Z4 goes, I have zero interest in a 4cyl Z4 regardless of transmission.

2 cents,
Dave
I agree with most of what you said. I am even older, since I have had my license since 1962. Most of what I have owned has had a manual
transmission. In fact, when I ordered my M4, it had to be a 6MT as there was no way that I wanted a DCT. I was very disappointed that I could not order a 6MT in the Z4, but I am very surprised. I like the Z8F a lot and like you, I really don't miss the clutch when I am driving it. For me, driving in Sport and accelerating so fast that the shifts sound like a F1 car is exhilarating. Like you, I have no desire to have this car with a 4cyl so I can have a 6MT.
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      10-01-2020, 11:00 PM   #38
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I enjoy the camera on my phone. Other people have a 'real' digital camera. Professional photographers use digital cameras.

Yet there are still people who enjoy using an analog camera and developing their own pictures.
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      10-02-2020, 12:57 AM   #39
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I enjoy the camera on my phone. Other people have a 'real' digital camera. Professional photographers use digital cameras.

Yet there are still people who enjoy using an analog camera and developing their own pictures.
Not sure I agree with your analogy. I happen to love the amazing digital camera on my iPhone 11 Pro. And I also love the 6-speed manual transmission on my 440i Coupe.
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      10-02-2020, 05:55 AM   #40
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Where is the cassette player and the CD player.
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      10-02-2020, 06:17 AM   #41
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Of Course i'm joking. Lighten up. You like a stick shift i get it. Ahh that pistol grip in my 70 CUDA' brings back memories.
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      10-02-2020, 08:38 AM   #42
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Where is the cassette player and the CD player.
CD??? 8-Track .....
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      10-02-2020, 09:43 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinPowers007 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by CeEl View Post
I enjoy the camera on my phone. Other people have a 'real' digital camera. Professional photographers use digital cameras.

Yet there are still people who enjoy using an analog camera and developing their own pictures.
Not sure I agree with your analogy. I happen to love the amazing digital camera on my iPhone 11 Pro. And I also love the 6-speed manual transmission on my 440i Coupe.
I am not saying people who like analog cameras also like manual transmissions. 🙄

Some people like the look of analog film, the feel of a mechanical (?) camera, the process of developing film ... something others may consider a chore. It's a preference, a hobby, a fascination with something different - and that's perfectly ok. I don't think they would say analog photography is 'better', they just have a preference for it.

Likewise, some people have a preference for a manual transmission (and yes, still use digital cameras and color tv's). I don't understand what the big deal about that is?
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      10-02-2020, 10:48 AM   #44
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Of Course i'm joking. Lighten up. You like a stick shift i get it. Ahh that pistol grip in my 70 CUDA' brings back memories.
My Super Bee wasn't a pistol grip but I still miss it!
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