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      09-23-2020, 08:43 AM   #45
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There is still cars with large (~50%) manual uptakes... through all generations Miatas, VW golfs (all variants), Subaru Imprezas (all variants), Civics (all variants). Notice how those cars aren't horsepower monsters or really expensive in general?

I think the idea of a car enthusiast needs to be separated from manual enthusiast.

It's never really been about speed and performance with manuals, its about driving enjoyment and control in all situations. What's the point of a toy that plays the game for you?

I'm currently shopping for a replacement to my 06' and likely not going through with it because of the sad choices in the price ranges I've had in mind.
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      09-23-2020, 09:19 AM   #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
They'll keep dying off as EVs rise in popularity. There will always be a small niche where it will be available. I think cars like the Miata, Mustang, and 911 will hold onto it. Maybe even the Wrangler and Bronco.
Those are exactly the five "enthusiast" vehicles I have in mind when thinking about the wind down as well. I think we might also see some affordable FWD Honda and Subaru (as someone mentions above) - and I'd add Kia - sedans/hatchbacks hold on until near the end as well.

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BMW seems to be the last one of the German big 3 holding out with a stick shift in the M2 and upcoming M3, but I'm not sure how long that will last.
It has been suggested to me that once the upcoming G87 M2 exits near the end of this decade, that's it. This timeline makes sense since essentially all ICE vehicles will be MHEV or PHEV by that time with most of them integrating the motor into the engine/transmission, and it's not likely that there will be a business case for MT versions of this type of setup.
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      09-23-2020, 09:34 AM   #47
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I don't think it will be. Especially with electric cars where some don't even have a gearbox... we shall see.
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      09-23-2020, 10:27 AM   #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
manual for me. I can appreciate a DCT though. I've had a 458 and GTR and both of them can do spectacular things with the dct trans that are not possible in a manual. But its not as engaging.

I get it if you're out on the track chasing lap times, you need something for a commute in stop-and-go traffic, or your wife needs to drive it. for that sort of stuff dct is great.

manual just adds an extra layer of immersion to the experience for me though. I could care less about losing to another car by 1-2 car length because its a dct. There will always be someone faster.

Never will I ever be able to say "I had a 458 and a GTR". Awesome.

The fact that you are willing to give up a length or two to be more engaged is cool. Its more about how you get there, not when you get there.
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      09-23-2020, 10:45 AM   #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sygazelle View Post
Never will I ever be able to say "I had a 458 and a GTR". Awesome.

The fact that you are willing to give up a length or two to be more engaged is cool. Its more about how you get there, not when you get there.
exactly. great video about this topic and I agree with him on almost everything. people are so obsessed with 0-60 and 1/4 mile times nowadays they lose track of what actual driving pleasure is. too many people these days attaching their ego to performance numbers of a car and if it can beat car X,Y, or Z in a 10 second race that requires no skill.

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      09-23-2020, 12:12 PM   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
Those are exactly the five "enthusiast" vehicles I have in mind when thinking about the wind down as well. I think we might also see some affordable FWD Honda and Subaru (as someone mentions above) - and I'd add Kia - sedans/hatchbacks hold on until near the end as well.



It has been suggested to me that once the upcoming G87 M2 exits near the end of this decade, that's it. This timeline makes sense since essentially all ICE vehicles will be MHEV or PHEV by that time with most of them integrating the motor into the engine/transmission, and it's not likely that there will be a business case for MT versions of this type of setup.
Sad.
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      09-23-2020, 01:54 PM   #51
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I'm curious how many people here who say they want a manual actually track their cars.

I picked up a manual Cayman this year as a toy car. Had to be manual since it was a toy. Took it to the track 4 times this year and realized by the 3rd time I should have gotten the PDK. When I'm trying to push and do better, the need to rev match just adds another layer I don't need. I also don't like the idea of money shifting while coming on the straight. The manual engagement feel in the car isn't the best and I missed shifted once during my first outing already. Now I have to monitor myself and take the 3rd to 4th a bit easy because a mistake is $10-15k.

Finally, I've noticed that a lot of newer performance cars with manual options do auto rev matching. So are you even a true manual anymore? It's like motorcycles nowadays too. Years ago I use to have to rev match on the track. Now you get slipper clutches and quick shifters as stock. You can literally just bang up and down through the gears.
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      09-23-2020, 02:36 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strohw View Post
I'm curious how many people here who say they want a manual actually track their cars.

I picked up a manual Cayman this year as a toy car. Had to be manual since it was a toy. Took it to the track 4 times this year and realized by the 3rd time I should have gotten the PDK. When I'm trying to push and do better, the need to rev match just adds another layer I don't need. I also don't like the idea of money shifting while coming on the straight. The manual engagement feel in the car isn't the best and I missed shifted once during my first outing already. Now I have to monitor myself and take the 3rd to 4th a bit easy because a mistake is $10-15k.

Finally, I've noticed that a lot of newer performance cars with manual options do auto rev matching. So are you even a true manual anymore? It's like motorcycles nowadays too. Years ago I use to have to rev match on the track. Now you get slipper clutches and quick shifters as stock. You can literally just bang up and down through the gears.
Been doing autoX and there's two nearly identical Cayman Ss, one manual, one PDK. The PDK is consistently about 3 seconds faster. Yes, drivers are important...but the PDK can simply shift instantly and that matters.
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      09-23-2020, 02:56 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strohw View Post
I'm curious how many people here who say they want a manual actually track their cars.

I picked up a manual Cayman this year as a toy car. Had to be manual since it was a toy. Took it to the track 4 times this year and realized by the 3rd time I should have gotten the PDK. When I'm trying to push and do better, the need to rev match just adds another layer I don't need. I also don't like the idea of money shifting while coming on the straight. The manual engagement feel in the car isn't the best and I missed shifted once during my first outing already. Now I have to monitor myself and take the 3rd to 4th a bit easy because a mistake is $10-15k.

Finally, I've noticed that a lot of newer performance cars with manual options do auto rev matching. So are you even a true manual anymore? It's like motorcycles nowadays too. Years ago I use to have to rev match on the track. Now you get slipper clutches and quick shifters as stock. You can literally just bang up and down through the gears.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Been doing autoX and there's two nearly identical Cayman Ss, one manual, one PDK. The PDK is consistently about 3 seconds faster. Yes, drivers are important...but the PDK can simply shift instantly and that matters.
I agree on the issue with the missed shift and doing major damage at a track. The automatic definitely comes with reduced chances of damage.

As for the lap times, depends on what you are doing, I have done track days and I would definitely be faster in an automatic, it also would be a lot simpler. Not sure about more fun or satisfying. Never been to a track day where lap times were recorded and really wasn't racing anyone so not sure if I would care that I was seconds faster around the track.

If AutoX and a real competition where times are recorded and you are trying to place the auto will more than likely be faster.
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      09-23-2020, 04:09 PM   #54
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I'm the type to put the game on the hard difficulty rather than easy because i find it more rewarding. i even play forza with the clutch mapped to the x button. start slow and work on the shifting technique, hitting apexes, etc. the speed will come later. if you're mis shifting its because you're too worried about the corners (coming in too fast) and losing track of everything else. using the proper technique (palm on the left side of the shifter with your thumb down) when going from 3rd to 4th also helps so you don't do a 3->2 money shift.

https://www.evo.co.uk/porsche/911/13...vs-pdk-gearbox

^ great article by Evo magazine. comparing the 911 pdk vs manual. the manual was faster but that was due to the better tire setup.
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      09-23-2020, 05:07 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strohw View Post
I'm curious how many people here who say they want a manual actually track their cars.
Not my BMW, that thing was expensive! No, i track a Pontiac from 1976 with a dog-leg 1st gear. That way all of my gears can be in a completely different place than the car I spend driving the entire rest of my life. Second guessing what gear you're in on a race track at 10/10ths is always exciting. Also, it's pedals are spaced too far apart to heel and toe, so....brake hard, then just before the apex quickly double clutch and rev match into the desired gear (Hopefully before you need to accelerate) and then get going. Of course that leaves you without any throttle control around the apex...so proper entry speed is important.

And no track days either, just honest to goodness wheel-to-wheel racing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle
I'm the type to put the game on the hard difficulty rather than easy because i find it more rewarding.
Would you believe I do this too? Left bumper clutch for me in forza though
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      09-23-2020, 06:05 PM   #56
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Interestingly, the common sentiment throughout this thread is that manual= more enjoyment. Allow me to say, paddle shifting actually brings a smile to my face that moving a metal rod doesn’t. Different strokes. So I’m faster and enjoy my smg and dct more.

While my manual 6 speed and manual 5 speed cars are fun also, I get less thrill from engaging a pedal and rod.
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      09-23-2020, 07:37 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strohw View Post
I'm curious how many people here who say they want a manual actually track their cars.
I don't track my cars anymore. Just don't have the time. But when I did, it was always a stick BMW. Now I won't have anything but a stick for my daily driver but then I live in an area where it is still fun to drive every day.

I had the opportunity a few years back to do the BMW M-Performance 2-Day Advanced Driving School at VIR for a Roundel article. We had both SMG and 3-pedal M3s from which to choose. At the end of Day One I'd had lots of track time in both in their lead-follow format. At the end of one session the instructor came over to my car to tell what a good session that had been and noticed I was in a 3-pedal car. He expressed surprise and told me that as smooth as my transitions were, he figured I was in an SMG. That brought on a discussion about which he and the other professional drivers actually preferred, which was overwhelmingly the 3-pedal car. Granted this was in the days of SMG, not DCT, or hot-rodded Steptronics masquerading as DCT that we have now. But I took the point that even the pros enjoy a good stick-shift.

At the end of the second day I was getting a bit tired and switched to the SMG for the last session. It was more relaxing, and far less challenging. At that point I was ready for that driving style. So there is room for both!
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      09-24-2020, 11:18 AM   #58
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Unfortunately, I think we have less than a decade before they're extinct IMO. This is why I'm closely watching the G87 in case it ends up being BMW's last hoorah. The exotic car makers (not including Porsche) have more or less killed them off, and even Honda and Mazda are not going to offer the Accord and Mazda6 with a manual starting next year I believe. I think the take rate, even with the enthusiasts ordering them will be so small that they will cancel it eventually.

I'm completely fine with automatics in a daily driver, as I actually daily drive a 2016 Tundra. Sometimes, it's just really nice to get in after a long day and just put a podcast on and go. However, on weekend cars, they're just not for me because:
1) The cliche thing to say is that they're not as engaging, which is true for me. I rented an E92 M3 with DCT from the Welt and got bored of the transmission after 1 day.
2) Auto/DCT trans age. At some point, even the wonderful 8ZF will be considered an antique. 2 decades ago, if you had a 6 speed auto, that was considered cutting edge. Now manufacturers are moving towards 8 and even more

I'm really tired of the trend the automotive industry is heading towards. Cars are getting so expensive, have less personality, questionable future serviceability ect... For example, Tesla is talking about the Plaid Edition that can do 0-60 in under 2s, 9s quarter mile and $130k. None of this interests me. Then of course it seems like every other week, there's a new multi-million dollar hyper car being unveiled.

I'm OK with sticking to my under $15k, 240 hp, 5MT E36 M3 coupe when I want to go have some fun.
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      09-24-2020, 11:33 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The answer to this question isn't found in a discussion forum. The answer is found by looking at sales data. The manual transmission has been decreasing in popularity for a couple decades and the rate of decline has particularly increased over the last few years.

The reasons for this is simple. The manual transmission is no longer the better performer nor the more efficient choice. Technology reached a point where automatic transmissions were able to shift faster and yield better fuel economy. For most people these two factors erased the manual transmission's value proposition.

As we head toward a future of electric vehicles, the multi-speed transmission itself will all but fade entirely into obsolescence.
I don't think thats it, its lazy. Its not simple and tough to sip mocha, change stations and chat on the phone while driving. Everything in society has become easy, cars too (have friends that run 1/4's and low the auto...thats their game) This leads to societal change, more traffic, more folks closer to city.

Also bought manual FOR track, that control outweighs simple/speed (mines faster now) IMO. Most folks at my track discuss having a manual..I got 16 so no rev matching
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      09-25-2020, 07:29 AM   #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMWCCA1 View Post
I don't track my cars anymore. Just don't have the time. But when I did, it was always a stick BMW. Now I won't have anything but a stick for my daily driver but then I live in an area where it is still fun to drive every day.

I had the opportunity a few years back to do the BMW M-Performance 2-Day Advanced Driving School at VIR for a Roundel article. We had both SMG and 3-pedal M3s from which to choose. At the end of Day One I'd had lots of track time in both in their lead-follow format. At the end of one session the instructor came over to my car to tell what a good session that had been and noticed I was in a 3-pedal car. He expressed surprise and told me that as smooth as my transitions were, he figured I was in an SMG. That brought on a discussion about which he and the other professional drivers actually preferred, which was overwhelmingly the 3-pedal car. Granted this was in the days of SMG, not DCT, or hot-rodded Steptronics masquerading as DCT that we have now. But I took the point that even the pros enjoy a good stick-shift.

At the end of the second day I was getting a bit tired and switched to the SMG for the last session. It was more relaxing, and far less challenging. At that point I was ready for that driving style. So there is room for both!
As I stated earlier, I've only ever owned and driven manuals. Outside of some 10,000 miles in my Dad's 1972 Marquis and my current pickup (at 84,000), out of my 1M+ miles driven, not even 100,000 are in an automatic.

Yet yesterday, I was test driving a '87 E30 convertible I was considering buying. I had an E30 sedan for 18 years and 257,000 miles, so driving one is pretty much as familiar to me as putting on a shoe. The E30 I was looking at only had 108,000 miles and lived its life in rural Rappahannock county and adult driven, so it should have been in good shape. Yet, when I tried to launch it out of its gravel covered parking space, I stalled it twice.

Granted the clutch felt much different to what I remember my E30 was, but it got me to thinking, three of my four BMWs are electronic throttle, with the forth my wife's '97 throttle-by-cable M44 E37. Could it be the magical analog to digital conversion of movement of the gas pedal masks poor driver throttle control?

I never stall the Z3. But it sure got me thinking this morning...
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."

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      09-25-2020, 07:35 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4Hockey4 View Post
I don't think thats it, its lazy. Its not simple and tough to sip mocha, change stations and chat on the phone while driving. Everything in society has become easy, cars too (have friends that run 1/4's and low the auto...thats their game) This leads to societal change, more traffic, more folks closer to city.

Also bought manual FOR track, that control outweighs simple/speed (mines faster now) IMO. Most folks at my track discuss having a manual..I got 16 so no rev matching
While I like manual transmissions and own a car with one, can you explain to the average car buyer that is only looking to get point to point (by far the majority) why he should get a manual? The "sales pitch" is that it is fun and more difficult but it's only fun if you enjoy doing it? Without "fun" the pitch is that it is more difficult and therefor you should buy it?

Every function of society continues to get more efficient and simpler, call it lazy if you want but the same "sales pitch" could also be used to try to convince someone not to use a navigation system and instead get out the paper maps and figure it out. Some enjoy paper maps and figuring it out but like the automatic transmission, most are just trying to get from point to point and the paper map is nothing more that an inefficient irritation.
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      09-25-2020, 04:41 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by David70 View Post
can you explain to the average car buyer that is only looking to get point to point (by far the majority) why he should get a manual? The "sales pitch" is that it is fun and more difficult but it's only fun if you enjoy doing it? Without "fun" the pitch is that it is more difficult and therefor you should buy it?
Just to comment on this in my perspective.

First of all, it's never going to be about the "average car buyer".
The average car buyer will buy an automatic car in a heartbeat because they are average. And the sales numbers prove that.

No, to WANT TO drive a manual daily means you're not average, you're a connoisseur. You like the art of driving and consider it a pleasurable experience.

For a daily, having a manual isn't about the best performance, convenience, or comfort. It's about engagement.
To me, if I want to driving a car, any car, I want the maximum connection between human and machine.
And only a 3 pedal proper stick in the middle transmission can provide that.

On a commute, when getting to a standing green at an intersection, heel toe down shift into second, gradual lift off brakes, maintenance throttle around the corner and then throttle out back into third. With the shift from 2nd to 3rd providing a momentary jolt.

Stopping at a red light on a slight incline, lift off brakes, the car rolls back. Release clutch slightly with a little throttle, getting the car back to where it was. Inching forward with just controlling the throttle and clutch. The feeling of physically engaging and disengaging the engine and the wheels.

The car only does the things you want it to do and every single thing only works when done right.
Messing up heel toe, or letting out the clutch too fast/slow? the car shakes or stalls in anger.
The delicacy and imperfection of a manual and the skill it takes to perfect it, makes it lovable and engaging.
In a way, a manual gives a car soul, makes it human.

Driving any auto (DCT PDK etc.) while much faster and smoother, will never provide the engagement when driving a manual.

Only a very small number of drivers think this way and that's why autos are taking over.
So no, I will not try to convince the average car buyer to buy a manual daily, because you either get it or you don't.

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      09-25-2020, 04:57 PM   #63
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yea I'll stick with lazy. We are talking sports cars and back in the day 4x4's, which my last 2 were, since I used them off road seriously.

Take away phones, mochas, kids screaming in back and traffic and many more folks would get a manual.

Driving is now a necessity, not an enjoyment. For those that still consider the latter, MT it is.

Ill use my original analogy: For folks that just want a pic, then its easy

I can get a painting off a computer faster and probably "better" I prefer to put the oil on the canvas myself.
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      09-25-2020, 05:23 PM   #64
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A manual is 98% of why I have a fun car. If I could not get a manual I would probably become a single car person. Has nothing to do with being faster - it is that connected feeling when you are chasing those corners and speed using every limb you have.

It's like you are a part of the car. That more than power or speed is what brings a smile to my face more than anything else.

I hope they never die, but I bet they do. 95% of people under 40 have never driven one and have no interest too it seems.
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      09-25-2020, 06:53 PM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poweredbym View Post
Just to comment on this in my perspective.

First of all, it's never going to be about the "average car buyer".
The average car buyer will buy an automatic car in a heartbeat because they are average. And the sales numbers prove that.

No, to WANT TO drive a manual daily means you're not average, you're a connoisseur.
For a daily, having a manual isn't about the best performance, convenience, or comfort.

It's about engagement. To me, if I want to driving a car, any car, I want the maximum connection between human and machine.
And only a 3 pedal proper stick in the middle transmission can provide that.

On a commute, when getting to a standing green at an intersection, heel toe down shift into second, gradual lift off brakes, maintenance throttle around the corner and then throttle out back into third. With the shift from 2nd to 3rd providing a momentary jolt.

Stopping at a red light on a slight incline, lift off brakes, the car rolls back. Release the clutch slightly with slight throttle, getting back to where it was. Inching forward with just controlling the throttle and clutch. The feeling of physically engaging and disengaging the engine and the wheels.

The car only does the things you want it to do. Everything single thing only works when done right. Messing up the heel toe, or letting out the clutch too fast/slow? the car shakes or stalls in anger.
The delicacy and the imperfection of a manual and the skill it takes to perfect it, makes it lovable and engaging.
In a way, a manual gives a car soul, makes it human.

Driving any auto (DCT PDK etc.) while much faster and smoother, will never provide the engagement when driving a manual.

Only a very small amount of drivers think this way and that's why autos are taking over.
So no, I will not try to convince the average car buyer to buy a manual daily, because you either get it or you don't.
What a great response. Thanks.

To the person who said the OP question is answered in the sales data, this response is the essence of it. Sales data will never reflect the reason why manuals are not gone already. poweredbym's response explains better than I ever could why manual is still a thing, albeit a dying thing.

I've thought for years about buying a weekend car with a manual to relive that connection that powerdbym so eloquently described. I'd pretty much given up the idea in favor of other priorities. Now, I'm going to have to rethink it.
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      09-25-2020, 10:27 PM   #66
Desmond79
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Drives: 2017 540i, 2009 328i
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My insurance agent asks why I want to keep insuring a 2009 328i stick when I have a 540i M.

Because, I say. The stick means I'm engaged. The phone is away, the tunes are up, and I am driving a car, not a taxi.
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2017 540i M, Carbon Black/Mocha, 20 in. on Michelin PS4S, CF Mirrors/Rear Spoiler

2009 328i 6 spd stick, Crimson Red/Sport Suspension, Bavsound Stage 1, 2

Former BMWs: '79 320i, '84 325e, 2000 328i, 2014 535i
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