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      09-25-2020, 11:53 PM   #67
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      09-26-2020, 05:21 AM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
While I like manual transmissions and own a car with one, can you explain to the average car buyer that is only looking to get point to point (by far the majority) why he should get a manual? The "sales pitch" is that it is fun and more difficult but it's only fun if you enjoy doing it? Without "fun" the pitch is that it is more difficult and therefor you should buy it?

Every function of society continues to get more efficient and simpler, call it lazy if you want but the same "sales pitch" could also be used to try to convince someone not to use a navigation system and instead get out the paper maps and figure it out. Some enjoy paper maps and figuring it out but like the automatic transmission, most are just trying to get from point to point and the paper map is nothing more that an inefficient irritation.
My theory...

If more people drove manuals, there would be less traffic jams and fewer accidents. This means greater efficiency.

One man's opinion.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 09-26-2020 at 07:40 AM..
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      09-26-2020, 07:39 AM   #69
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      09-26-2020, 08:24 AM   #70
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Manual transmission in new cars in North America and parts of Europe will be relegated to a few cars that inspire the audience for it. Already mentioned on this forum. If/when people stop buying those cars with the option or don't fight back if taken away it will be finished. One by one they will fall; maybe the entire car model itself will just fade (does anyone REALLY want to drive an automatic Miata??).

VW Golf/Jetta/GTI
BMW M2/3/4
Porsche 718 series
Porsche 911 Carrera/GT3/R
Honda Civic SiR
Subaru WRX STI
Mazda Miata
Lotus ??
Aston Martins (thank goodness)
Alfa Romeo Guilia (Europe only)


All driver focused cars. Will be completely dead in the commuter car market. I know in Brazil they were driving a high take rate of manuals and have some unique commuter cars as a result but curious if that has changed in the past 9 year since I've been.
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      09-26-2020, 08:34 AM   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky1 View Post
Manual transmission in new cars in North America and parts of Europe will be relegated to a few cars that inspire the audience for it. Already mentioned on this forum. If/when people stop buying those cars with the option or don't fight back if taken away it will be finished. One by one they will fall; maybe the entire car model itself will just fade (does anyone REALLY want to drive an automatic Miata??).

VW Golf/Jetta/GTI
BMW M2/3/4 - Sad, very sad...
Porsche 718 series
Porsche 911 Carrera/GT3/R
Honda Civic SiR
Subaru WRX STI
Mazda Miata
Lotus ??
Aston Martins (thank goodness)
Alfa Romeo Guilia (Europe only)


All driver focused cars. Will be completely dead in the commuter car market. I know in Brazil they were driving a high take rate of manuals and have some unique commuter cars as a result but curious if that has changed in the past 9 year since I've been.
.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      09-26-2020, 09:42 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
My theory...

If more people drove manuals, there would be less traffic jams and fewer accidents. This means greater efficiency.

One man's opinion.
............and less stolen cars.
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      09-26-2020, 10:25 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sygazelle View Post
............and less stolen cars.
Well, no. Manuals keep cars from being stolen NOW. If more criminals knew how to drive a manual, more would get stolen.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission. "Yeah, but NO ONE puts an automatic trans shift knob on a manual transmission."
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      09-27-2020, 02:39 AM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sygazelle View Post

I've read on car forums that real enthusiasts will choose a manual transmission over an automatic.
It's true. When everything is electric why would someone want an ICE automatic antique vehicle ? Automation was the downfall of ICE.
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      09-27-2020, 09:22 AM   #75
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Whether I'm going 5, 50 or 150mph I'm engaged and connected at all times with the manual. No time for texting or talking, just driving. 0-60 aren't important to me on the street. For a track car sure dct, PdK all the way. Until I have track car money I will focus on my street car enjoyment.

If it is a dying bread then get your hands on one now because they will only be going up in value. I'd like to keep this one and give it to my 4yr old one day. I believe it will be a classic.
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      09-27-2020, 01:58 PM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbravo33 View Post
Whether I'm going 5, 50 or 150mph I'm engaged and connected at all times with the manual. No time for texting or talking, just driving. 0-60 aren't important to me on the street. For a track car sure dct, PdK all the way. Until I have track car money I will focus on my street car enjoyment.

If it is a dying bread then get your hands on one now because they will only be going up in value. I'd like to keep this one and give it to my 4yr old one day. I believe it will be a classic.
The funny thing is I just go to the track for the enjoyment. I never time myself. I'm aware I'm getting better but heel toe on a long straight into the twisties is more fun for me than any PDK or DCT could offer. So MT on the track for me. Could care less about the seconds it loses me there either.
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      09-27-2020, 03:26 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky1 View Post
The funny thing is I just go to the track for the enjoyment. I never time myself. I'm aware I'm getting better but heel toe on a long straight into the twisties is more fun for me than any PDK or DCT could offer. So MT on the track for me. Could care less about the seconds it loses me there either.
I bought MT JUST for the track, same thing. .03 slower, who cares I just slammed 3rd and came out sideways. There is always a faster car, even DCT. Its the act, not the result.

Maybe a 200K supercar where you have to hang on with 2 hands
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      09-27-2020, 03:32 PM   #78
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Seems each year the debate rages on about the demise of the manual. Regardless of what we all think, if they're out there and it's in the right platform, they will sell. I could care less how fast or slow I go in my manual, but it is a hell of a lot more fun than clicking a paddle shifter. Both my bikes have quick shifters, up and down and it helps at certain times, but it's natural to be using both my hands also so it's less intrusive.
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      09-27-2020, 07:27 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbravo33 View Post
Whether I'm going 5, 50 or 150mph I'm engaged and connected at all times with the manual. No time for texting or talking, just driving. 0-60 aren't important to me on the street. For a track car sure dct, PdK all the way. Until I have track car money I will focus on my street car enjoyment.

If it is a dying bread then get your hands on one now because they will only be going up in value. I'd like to keep this one and give it to my 4yr old one day. I believe it will be a classic.
This post hit me right in the feels...
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      09-27-2020, 09:39 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbravo33 View Post
Whether I'm going 5, 50 or 150mph I'm engaged and connected at all times with the manual. No time for texting or talking, just driving. 0-60 aren't important to me on the street. For a track car sure dct, PdK all the way. Until I have track car money I will focus on my street car enjoyment.

If it is a dying bread then get your hands on one now because they will only be going up in value. I'd like to keep this one and give it to my 4yr old one day. I believe it will be a classic.
This post hit me right in the feels...
This is why Porsche gets my money these days. True MT enthusiast cars old and new.
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      09-27-2020, 09:44 PM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucky1 View Post
This is why Porsche gets my money these days. True MT enthusiast cars old and new.
Yeah even on their base models and CUVs you can tell the engineering is solid and the driver comes first. That's how BMW used to be even on the most basic car. My dad made the switch the Porsche after a lengthy love affair with BMW.

Unfortunately Porsches just keep getting pricier. Not too long ago a decently equipped Boxster S was pretty reasonably priced. Now it goes well over $80k for that 4-pot. These days it's only base Boxster/Cayman, Cayenne, or Macan S which fall in the more attainable range. The magic of BMW used to be that you used to get a driver's car with a luxurious interior for an attainable price.
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      09-27-2020, 10:28 PM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
Yeah even on their base models and CUVs you can tell the engineering is solid and the driver comes first. That's how BMW used to be even on the most basic car. My dad made the switch the Porsche after a lengthy love affair with BMW.

Unfortunately Porsches just keep getting pricier. Not too long ago a decently equipped Boxster S was pretty reasonably priced. Now it goes well over $80k for that 4-pot. These days it's only base Boxster/Cayman, Cayenne, or Macan S which fall in the more attainable range. The magic of BMW used to be that you used to get a driver's car with a luxurious interior for an attainable price.
Have you looked at house prices recently?

They are plenty attainable, for those that have the money.
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      09-27-2020, 11:58 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Have you looked at house prices recently?

They are plenty attainable, for those that have the money.
Like everything, inflation outpaces salaries in all professions. Real estate, cars, student loans, dining out, etc.
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      09-28-2020, 12:14 AM   #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Life long manual transmission owner 1M+ driven miles, and drove professionally in city traffic. Took my driver's license test in a manual trans car.

So my opinion is MOST manumatics in the current vehicle fleet for sale are not millisecond-shifting DCT, but are computer-controlled torque converter automatics. The point of shifting yourself is, as the driver, you can see the road and traffic environment and decide when and what gear you want to use to make the driving move you want to make. In auto mode, no manumatic can emulate that level of driver control. So if you drive like I do, which is fully engaged in the driving activity and use the lack of other drivers attention to their environment to gracefully make your way through traffic, you need to keep a manumatic in manual mode. MOST manumatics still suck at shifting manually (read as SLOW and less precise), so my preference is to use a 3rd pedal and shift when and how fast I want to at ANYTIME I want.

The art of street driving is profiling the cars and drivers around you (i.e. part of the driving environment), so that you can better control the situation. As Murf said, who gives a shit about millisecond shift speeds for street driving.

One man's opinion and preference.
Basically agreed with this. My IS is my first 2-pedal car. I basically treat D mode as a warmup/cooldown mode so it can shift by 2k and I don't have to shift constantly. Otherwise I'm always shifting it manually because no trans yet can adapt to the traffic around you, downshift when you need to slow down.

I do notice that shifting can be slow in manual mode, in certain situations like shifting 2-3 mid turn (relaxed driving) it'll wait til you straighten out to actually shift, which is slightly annoying but at the same time we aren't typically shifting 3-pedal cars mid turn like that anyways.
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      09-28-2020, 12:20 AM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivek. View Post
Basically agreed with this. My IS is my first 2-pedal car. I basically treat D mode as a warmup/cooldown mode so it can shift by 2k and I don't have to shift constantly. Otherwise I'm always shifting it manually because no trans yet can adapt to the traffic around you, downshift when you need to slow down.
Have you not heard about adaptive cruise control?
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      09-28-2020, 12:22 AM   #86
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There is something to be said in here about how different cultures favor auto or manual more. The united states seems to lean heavily towards manual, where as places like Sweden or Italy seems to a lot closer to mostly manual. (Mind you im basing this off experience.)
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      09-28-2020, 12:41 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Have you not heard about adaptive cruise control?
Of course I have but this would only apply if you drove with active cruise on at all times
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      09-28-2020, 12:42 AM   #88
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Of course I have but this would only apply if you drove with active cruise on at all times
Well, your scenario was in traffic and adapting to the traffic around you. ACC is brilliant.
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