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      08-20-2007, 07:45 PM   #441
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATG View Post
That's troublesome. It's like people who don't care what is happenning during the day because they hope to have fun in their dreams at night. Medical (psychiatric) care sometimes can help though.
You have misunderstood what i have said.
I stated that they dont FEAR death
not
the dont care if they die

Why must you make fun of something just to make yourself feel smarter??? and then put a medical condition to every problem a person may experience.... before you know it people that are "happy" are going to be considered "sick"
just the way you have claimed that you believe Christians are "sick"--- kinda of reminds me of the USSR that claimed Christians should be "fixed"
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      08-21-2007, 06:21 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by uabimmer View Post
Not trying to argue ... just want to clear things up...
Can you be a little more specific on what you are quoting from the Bible...

For example. John 19:30 "So when Jesus had recieved the sour wine, He said, 'It is finished!' And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit"


I will be waiting for your response
Firstly, I'm glad you didnt jump down my throat. I have had great respect from one Christian brother, UncleWede, but I would by lying if I could say I had respect and tolerance from FloridaBoy. Despite many attempts of trying to ask perfectly logical questions, he puts my questions down as "rhetorical" etc. Anyway, sorry for not posting the reference. I would have, but FloridaBoy never replies to my logical questions so I figured I would give the reference when he actually acknowledges my question.

The quote I was actually referring to was John 17:4 where it says:

"I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do."
John (17:4)


Also, please look at my post here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=814

For your convenience, I'll paste the post below too. Also, I say everything with true respect for all humans. We all came from Prophet Adam (AS) and his wife, and therefore, are brothers in every sense of the word.
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      08-21-2007, 06:24 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
I posted this on 08-11-2007, 05:51 AM (quite some time ago)

Quote:
I cant agree with this. Parts of the Bible make it clear that we have to repent for our sins and that Jesus was here to preach, not to die for us. Jesus even said he completed his work long before his "crucifixion". Then other parts of the bible say that Jesus came to die for our sins and as long as we accept it, our sins are paid for. Which is it?
Okay. Firstly I said Jesus made it clear that he was here to preach etc. Looking at Luke (4:18-19) we see:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me,
because he has anointed me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners
and recovery of sight for the blind,
to release the oppressed,
to proclaim the year of the Lord's favor."


You see what I mean? Firstly, I'm not even sure if these are Jesus' real words since I have no faith in the credibility of the current Bible since I know exactly how it was compiled etc. That said, even looking at this verse we can see that Jesus is a prophet! Now look here:

"I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do."
John (17:4)


You see where I am going? IF these are Jesus' real words, then they seem to imply that Jesus was sent to preach etc. and he also said in a prayer to God that he has completed this work! This all seems to prove that Jesus is a prophet, not God. Especially since God doesnt set "work" for himself to do. Allah says "be" and it is. Look:

She said, 'My Lord, how shall I have a son, when no man has touched me? He said, 'Such is the way of ALLAH. HE creates what HE pleases. When HE decrees a thing HE says to it 'Be,' and it is;"
Qur'an 3:38-48


Also, note that in the same prayer in John 17, Jesus says that God sent him. This is what we muslims believe, that Allah sends prophets. If Jesus is God, he could have said "I came to this Earth" or something to that effect. Because this is what Christians say, they say that God loved the world so much that he put himself in human form for us and "came" to us. My question is that if he put himself in human form and "came" to us, then how can you say "God sent Jesus"? it doesnt make sense. God would say he "came" to the world.

You still think I'm asking a rhetorical question? Let others decide...

Edit: I know you havent made a response, but I would like to request that you look at that video that Enfield posted. I want to hear your thoughts about it since it is directed mostly to Christianity. Please note that this video is not trying to rhetorical in any way, as everyone who has viewed it knows.
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      08-21-2007, 11:08 AM   #444
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hks786

Chapter 17 is Jesus' prayer to God. and in it you will find the verses 4 and 5 He says "... Glorify Me together with Yourself..." Jesus speaks of being together with God again as to what will happen after His crusifiction.

You also mention that Jesus is not the Son of God??
Luke 3:22 "And the Hly Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heave which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased"
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      08-21-2007, 02:25 PM   #445
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uabimmer
Chapter 17 is Jesus' prayer to God. and in it you will find the verses 4 and 5 He says "... Glorify Me together with Yourself..." Jesus speaks of being together with God again as to what will happen after His crusifiction.
Thanks for the reply. Firstly, what I was trying to say is that Jesus said that he completed his work. He didnt say "I have completed my work except the last task of giving my life on the cross".

Also, God doesnt assign work to himself, he says "be" and it is. However, God sends Prophets to do duties and live among the people. Christians tell me that "God loved us so much, he put himself in flesh and came to us". If God came to us, why does God say he sent Jesus to us? This indicates that Jesus is a prophet. Infact, the whole way the Bible addresses God and Jesus shows that they are seperate entities.

Moreover, "Glorify me together with yourself" can equally refer to Jesus returning to God. It doesnt need to be after Jesus gives his life on the cross. It doesnt say that. It merely says that Jesus is praying to be reunited with God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by uabimmer
You also mention that Jesus is not the Son of God?
Luke 3:22 "And the Hly Spirit descended in bodily form like a dove upon Him, and a voice came from heave which said, "You are My beloved Son; in You I am well pleased"
Thanks again bro. However, did you know that in places of the Bible, the title "Son of God" was inserted later? the NIV bible must really be commended for removing the phrase from some places. Also, the NIV Bible has had to remove other verse because they were discovered to be later additions/fabrications. This is hugely significant.

Also, did you know "Son of God" in Hebrew can also mean "Servant of God"? Even Adam (AS) in the Bible has been called "Son of God". Infact, the phrase "Son of God" has been used to address a lot of people.

Did you know that the Torah has even been called the "daughter of God"?

In the Hebrew Bible Israel is both a man (Jacob, the son of Isaac) and the nation that descended from him.

Because of the shared name and organic identity, God speaks to the nation as though he were a single person. Israel is, in fact, God's son (Exod 4:22 — beni vechori yisrael; Deut 14:1 — banim atem l'Adonai; Jer 31:9 — ki hayiti le'yisrael le'av; Hosea 11:1 — mimitzrayim qarati livni).

Israel's Father nurtures him to grow up and become a worshiping servant (Exod 4:23 — "Let my son go that he may serve me").

Also, did you know that in the KJV it calls Jesus the "Son of God" but then in the New KJV, it calls him the "*****t of God"? I'm sure you can see where I'm going with this. Infact here's a whole article about it:

http://www.answering-christianity.co...ranslation.htm

Edit: I'll add more here later

Now, let's look at it from this perspective. If God loved the world so much that he decided to put himself in human form, this would mean:

That God "came" to the Earth. The Bible tells us that God "sent" Jesus.

That God can split himself into more parts and each part would be equal. However, Jesus says in the Bible: "The father is greater than I" John 14:28.

That the "son" or "part" of him would share the same nature. Therefore, if God cannot die, how did Jesus die on the cross in ANY sense of the word?

Here's another question: If Jesus is God, who did he worship?

Also, people sometimes ask "If God is all-powerfull, why can't he have a son? or put himself in human form?" However, I feel this is quite inappropriate because I could then ask "why not a daughter? why not animal form?". Another, question I could ask is "could God make a rock so heavy that even he cant move it?" or "could God tell a lie?" Do you see how illogical these questions are?

The differences between man and God are so extreme that we cannot say God put himself in human form. Look:

God is infinite. Man in finite.
God is the creator. Man is the creation.
God is immortal. Man is mortal.
God has no requirements. Man has many requirements i.e food, clothing, shelter...
God is not forgetfull. Man is forgetfull.
God doesnt sleep. Man requires sleep.
God cannot make mistakes. Man makes mistakes.
God can do everything. Man is limited in abilities.

I cant think of more right now. But I'm sure you can see the problems with saying that Jesus is the son of God....again with respect...
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      08-21-2007, 04:31 PM   #446
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Aren't you the son of Allah? I'm the son of God, Jesus is my brother. He was created to be a human in allthings BUT sin.

We still have no capacity to comprehend teh totality of God, so there are things we will just have to wait and ask him directly in heaven. The tri-part nature of His being is one of those items.
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      08-21-2007, 04:38 PM   #447
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
Aren't you the son of Allah? I'm the son of God, Jesus is my brother. He was created to be a human in allthings BUT sin.

We still have no capacity to comprehend teh totality of God, so there are things we will just have to wait and ask him directly in heaven. The tri-part nature of His being is one of those items.
I am the "Son of Allah" IF you mean it in the Hebrew expression which means "Servant of Allah".

He was created to be human in all things BUT sin? Then he is not human. Allah says that man was created weak which implies a nature to sin. Now, if you are going to ask questions like "Is it not possible for God to create a human without sin?". Of course it is possible but that doesnt mean he would do it. I could ask "could God make a rock so heavy even he cant move it?"

Also, how can we wait to ask God in heaven about the trinity and then continue believing it until such a time? How can we base belief on something we cannot be sure is 100% true?
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      08-21-2007, 05:01 PM   #448
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Anyone ?
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      08-21-2007, 05:28 PM   #449
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again, the key is FAITH
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      08-21-2007, 05:33 PM   #450
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
How can we base belief on something we cannot be sure is 100% true?
Good question. Try to answer it next time you pray to Allah.
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      08-21-2007, 05:42 PM   #451
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No, I mean son in that without him, you would not exist. He is directly responsible for your existence.

"Son, I brought you into this world, I'll take you out"
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      08-21-2007, 07:10 PM   #452
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Originally Posted by UncleWede View Post
again, the key is FAITH
But how can you base faith be based on nothing? how can it be based on contradictions and impossibilities? I wonder if there are any Christians out there that can answer my questions. I really am genuine when I ask them...
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      08-22-2007, 11:06 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
I could ask "could God make a rock so heavy even he cant move it?"
you do realize that you are just playing with words

You are using HUMAN logic to try and explain GOD's existance/power
so why not LoGICALLY explain salvation/creation of the earth/parting of the Red Sea
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      08-22-2007, 03:08 PM   #454
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Quote:
Originally Posted by uabimmer View Post
you do realize that you are just playing with words

You are using HUMAN logic to try and explain GOD's existance/power
so why not LoGICALLY explain salvation/creation of the earth/parting of the Red Sea
This debate is actually continued over in my thread "Did Jesus die for the sins of the world?". I have actually addressed what you have just said. Join in the discussion
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      08-26-2007, 07:56 AM   #455
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
As a self-made atheist, I suggest we discuss what the contemporary world would look like without too gigantic religions: Christianty and Islam. Both came from the middle east and, naturally, the wide acceptance of Islam by the neighboring countries around Persian Gulf was sort of logical. But it still puzzles me how the whole Europe (and then the U.S. -- oh yeah baby!) had come to the acceptance of Christianity. How did the whole continent fall for those local Israeli myths??
if there were no religion to argue about, we'd argue about something else. maybe we'd argue about which skin color was superior. or at which decimal to round off pie (22/7). and we'd go to war over it.

rest assured we'd find something else to divide us.

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      08-26-2007, 08:24 AM   #456
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Originally Posted by pcoles78 View Post
if there were no religion to argue about, we'd argue about something else. maybe we'd argue about which skin color was superior. or at which decimal to round off pie (22/7). and we'd go to war over it.

rest assured we'd find something else to divide us.

Well said bro. It's just human nature...
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      10-15-2007, 09:06 PM   #457
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Originally Posted by ATG View Post
bravo!

So, all Europeans and other people who lived before Christ's birth went straight to hell because they did not follow the new testament?
Uh no. They went to hell becuase they didn't follow God's laws. Jesus dies for the sins of all who accept him as their lord and savior. Man in inherently flawed, and not able to live to the perfection of God. There has only been one without sin, and when we are viewed through Him, we too are perfect to God.
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      10-15-2007, 09:13 PM   #458
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
Firstly, I'm glad you didnt jump down my throat. I have had great respect from one Christian brother, UncleWede, but I would by lying if I could say I had respect and tolerance from FloridaBoy. Despite many attempts of trying to ask perfectly logical questions, he puts my questions down as "rhetorical" etc. Anyway, sorry for not posting the reference. I would have, but FloridaBoy never replies to my logical questions so I figured I would give the reference when he actually acknowledges my question.

The quote I was actually referring to was John 17:4 where it says:

"I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do."
John (17:4)


Also, please look at my post here:

http://www.m3post.com/forums/showpos...&postcount=814

For your convenience, I'll paste the post below too. Also, I say everything with true respect for all humans. We all came from Prophet Adam (AS) and his wife, and therefore, are brothers in every sense of the word.
I'm just starting to dig into this thread (21 pages! woah!), but one thing I see repeated is phrases of the bible taken out and evaluated as a single thought. This is very difficult to do for 2 big reasons:

1. It's usually taken out of context. The bible is an interwoven history of the world. You can't take a single phrase from history and judge an entire civilization or belief structure from it.

2. The trasnlations have murdered the original scripture. Many bibles these days are twice as thick as needed if it were only containing the biblical text. This extra space is used to explain what different words meant 2000+ years ago. The changes in meaning (yo bitch meant something very different 100 yrs ago!), and the lack of literal translations for so many Hebrew words into English require a reader to read extensively to see what the words really meant, and how the translation should really be viewed.
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      10-16-2007, 10:22 AM   #459
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboFan
1. It's usually taken out of context. The bible is an interwoven history of the world. You can't take a single phrase from history and judge an entire civilization or belief structure from it.
Some things I admit are out of context, but when you go back to the context, it actually further supports my reasoning. Such as John 10:30...I've explained it at huge length. Simple and logical.

Also, quite a lot of what I've been posting is the discrepancies between the Gospels describing the EXACT same event...


Quote:
Originally Posted by TurboFan
2. The trasnlations have murdered the original scripture. Many bibles these days are twice as thick as needed if it were only containing the biblical text. This extra space is used to explain what different words meant 2000+ years ago. The changes in meaning (yo bitch meant something very different 100 yrs ago!), and the lack of literal translations for so many Hebrew words into English require a reader to read extensively to see what the words really meant, and how the translation should really be viewed.
Yeah I do agree that translations are an issue, but that wasnt the heart of my arguments. I explained at great length that there are so many versions of the Bible that are based on different manuscripts. That's not the same as translations. Take for example Mark 1:1, the earliest gospel and the very first words. The NIV Bible tells us that the title "Son of God" was a later addition to the original text. Clearly a fabrication which is not the word of God...
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      10-16-2007, 12:27 PM   #460
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Regarding John 17:4, look at the context:

After Jesus said this, he looked toward heaven and prayed: "Father, the time has come. Glorify your Son, that your Son may glorify you.
For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him.
Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent.
I have brought you glory on earth by completing the work you gave me to do.
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.


Firstly, I cant find this prayer in any of the other Gospels, is it there? I tried though Mark but couldnt find it. If it is there, my bad. If it isnt, this is again a problem with John and why people usually set side him from other Gospels. He has exclusive statements that are sworn by many Christians today (that shows how striking they are, millions of Christians remember them) yet Mark, Matthew & Luke forgot them. It's very worrying indeed...

Secondly, look at what I highlighted, Jesus (AS) shows that authority was GRANTED by God, eternal life was GRANTED by God. He then makes the distiction between "the only true God" and "Jesus Christ".

"Christ" isnt even a name. It's a title which means "anointed" or "Messiah", "chosen" etc. These are actually also names of the Holy Prophet Muhammed (SAW) too. Aziz, Mujtaba, Mustafa mean Honored, selected & chosen, respectively.

Also, it clearly says Jesus (AS) was assigned work by God. How can Jesus (AS) then be God? It's highly illogical. Of course we can try to derive new doctrines and say God lowered himself to be man. However, that is theologically impossible. Jesus wouldnt even let someone call him "good", so why should we call him "God"? There is no unequivocal statement in the Bible were Jesus (AS) claims to be God and asks for worship. That's why it wasnt just a coincidence when John 5:7 was discovered as a fabrication. Clearly someone was very eager to promote Jesus (AS) as God. See my last post where I spoke about Mark 1:1 too...

Regarding the last statement, I have doubts if it is actually Jesus (AS)'s true words. But even if it is, look at it. It's clearly a prayer. How can God pray to God? God is self-knowing and is Glorious and Glorified. Why ask to be glorified? The whole language of the verses above are that of a humble servant praying to God, not Jesus (AS) as a Godly figure.

Moreover, before we even try to say it proves Jesus (AS) existed before the world with the Father, remember John 5:7? It tried to put the Father, the Son & the Spirit as one but then we discovered it as a fabrication. Not such a coincidence when you consider the statement wasnt in any earlier Gospels. I wonder if this statement is recorded in other Gospels in the same event...

Also, every prophet would have glory with God before the creation of the world. God knows who he is going to create and has full knowlege of the future. Many prophecies glorify prophets before they come...
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      10-17-2007, 10:28 AM   #461
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Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. If we go back thru the sometimes poor translations, the original Greek word was monogenes which is a compund of mono (only) and gennesis (birth). As God's monogenes Jesus enjoyed unique glory (Jn. 1: 14). Jesus being of the same essential nature as the Father could reveal God as no other could (Jn. 14: 8-11). Hence, Jesus is uniquely and singularly the Son of God - the only one of his kind.
(borrowed from a web page I found on the meaning of the term Begotten son)

And yet he died, nailed to a tree, so that the CHILDREN of God would have a pathway to God's kingdom thru forgiveness.
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      10-17-2007, 02:45 PM   #462
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
Jesus is the only begotten Son of God. If we go back thru the sometimes poor translations, the original Greek word was monogenes which is a compund of mono (only) and gennesis (birth). As God's monogenes Jesus enjoyed unique glory (Jn. 1: 14).
And yet he died, nailed to a tree, so that the CHILDREN of God would have a pathway to God's kingdom thru forgiveness.
Firstly, did you know that John 3:16 "For God so loved the world he gave his only begotten Son..." has been thrown out the Bible? 50 scholars of the highest eminence backed by 50 cooperating denominations will testify this as a fabrication, not the word of God. It has nothing to do with translations but rather the words of people many many centuries ago come to mind:

"The differences among the manuscripts have become great, either through the negligence of some copyists through the perverse audacity of others; they either neglect to check over what they have transcribed, or, in the process of checking, they make additions or deletions as they please." -Origen, early church father

Also: "Some believers, as though from a drinking bout, go so far as to appose themselves and alter the original text of the gospel three four or several times over, and they change it's character to enable them to deny difficulties in face of criticisms." – Celsus

"When my fellow Christians invited me to write letters to them I did so. These the devil's apostles have filled with tares, taking away some things and adding others. For them the woe is reserved. Small wonder then if some have dared to tamper even with the word of the Lord himself, when they have conspired to mutilate my own humble efforts." – Dionysius


Also, the title Son of God can be given to anyone, even Adam (AS) is the Son of God in the Bible. Also, did you know that in the law, it would be perfectly fine to address someone as "God" if the work of God came to him? Jesus (AS) testifies this himself:

Jesus answered them, "Is it not written in your Law, 'I have said you are gods'? If he called them 'gods,' to whom the word of God came—and the Scripture cannot be broken.
John (1:34,35)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UncleWede
Jesus being of the same essential nature as the Father could reveal God as no other could (Jn. 14: 8-11). Hence, Jesus is uniquely and singularly the Son of God - the only one of his kind.
(borrowed from a web page I found on the meaning of the term Begotten son)
But how can Jesus be of the same nature? God is immortal, infinite and Jesus (AS) is mortal, finite. They are clearly not the same beings or of the same nature. How can we say they are of the same nature when Jesus was born of a woman, made her impure for 40 days, hungered, became thirsty, wept, answered to the call of nature; he was clearly man, a great prophet, nothing more.

Jesus (AS) testfies that he was given work by God as other prophets would do, that he was sent to preach, he cant do anything of himself. He even prayed to God. All of these point to him being a loving servant and messenger, nothing more. Of course we can try to heighten his position as the Gospel writers do themselves. One doesnt have to look beyond the 4 gospels to see this. However, it doesnt really work as we can see.
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