BMW Garage BMW Meets Register Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read
BIMMERPOST Universal Forums Professional Motorsport Racing Discussion (IMSA, DTM, Formula 1, Grand-AM, Le Mans, IRL, WRC, etc..) Debate: Proposed engine freeze from 2022

Post Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
      10-16-2020, 07:44 PM   #1
CalAcacian
Second Lieutenant
167
Rep
234
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Orange County, California

iTrader: (0)

Debate: Proposed engine freeze from 2022

As we're all aware now, Red Bull has proposed that they will buy the Honda IP and continue using the Honda engine (in re-branded form) IF the other teams will agree to an engine development freeze from 2022 to 2025, the last season before the next engine formula will begin in 2026 (I wish that they had made it 2022 or at least 2024).

Many people are opposed to this, citing the fact that ongoing engine development is a key part of the sport.

However, starting in 2021, the cost caps will begin to be implemented. 2021 will see a $145 million cost cap, 2022 will require teams to cut back to $140 million, and from 2023-2025 teams will be limited to only $135 million. This means that teams will have vastly reduced budgets for engine development, in addition to the restrictions placed on updates through the token system. That means we really won't be seeing much engine development, particularly when these engines have already been in service for 7 seasons and therefore development for over 10 (more if you're Mercedes). We're going to be seeing very marginal gains at this point from a power and reliability standpoint, and that would be true even without the limitations on spending and tokens.

Further, 2022 is going to be all about aero development to claw back the downforce that the cars will be losing, no team will have a significant engine development budget when the price per tenth of performance will be so much lower on a fresh aerodynamic platform that has not yet been optimized.

Next, potentially losing the Red Bull / Honda engine (ignoring the possibility of losing Red Bull and AT as teams for the time being), would be a huge blow to F1. Having more engine manufacturers is a very good thing for the sport. The more works teams you have, the greater the likelihood of having true competitors at the top of the field. That integration of engine and chassis development allows teams to build more effective and cohesive platforms with the tightest possible packaging and most drag efficient cooling systems. The Honda engine is currently the closest to the Mercedes, so RB and AT switching to the Renault engine would effectively hand the 2021, 2022, 2023, 2024, and 2025 WDC and WCC championships to Hamilton/Mercedes. Personally, I've had enough total domination of the sport and I would like to see teams like RB challenging Mercedes for wins and championships.

Finally, there is the possibility of losing RB and AT out of formula one. This would be a catastrophe for the sport and would mean losing almost a quarter of the grid. No other pair of teams is so tightly bound together, and it has become clear that they intend to strengthen that partnership in the future in 2021. Even if another company stepped up and rebranded the team, RB is a storied part of F1 in the post-2000 era. Considering the rather large probability that we are entering a time of global economic recession, it is unlikely that major companies are going to see entering formula 1 as an almost guaranteed loser (at least not a title contender) as an attractive investment.

All that said, I am interested in hearing what others have to say about the topic. How do you feel about a proposed engine freeze from 2022 to 2025?

Last edited by CalAcacian; 10-19-2020 at 09:12 PM..
Appreciate 3
yco3016.00
MKSixer27902.00

      10-17-2020, 03:14 AM   #2
M5theonlyone
Major General
United Kingdom
8012
Rep
5,954
Posts

Drives: BMW M5 V8 Gunmetal
Join Date: Aug 2018
Location: Southern England

iTrader: (0)

Merc cajoled the hybrid concept past the FIA and we have been lumbered with it ever since.For sure there should be an engine freeze and aid RB to have something to fight with.
Appreciate 1
      11-09-2020, 06:00 PM   #3
MKSixer
Lieutenant General
MKSixer's Avatar
27902
Rep
10,803
Posts

Drives: 2015 BMW i8, E63 M6, 328d
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Southeast United States

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2016 M4 GTS (Allotted)  [0.00]
2013 BMW 328d  [0.00]
2007 BMW M6  [5.00]
2015 BMW i8  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by M5theonlyone View Post
Merc cajoled the hybrid concept past the FIA and we have been lumbered with it ever since.For sure there should be an engine freeze and aid RB to have something to fight with.
F1 is the ultimate meritocracy. Screw BOP, Engine Freezes, and all of the other BS.

As long as the car is legal, let them race. You complain about the Mercedes but RB has had the advantage before and was merciless with their execution and manipulation of the FIA with flexible wings, tire tread advantage, possible traction control and off-throttle diffuser blowing.

It's farcical.

Cheers-mk
__________________
Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond...
Sir 7ewis, 7X FIA Formula One World Championship, World Driving Champion. 95 Wins. 98 Pole Positions. 53 Fastest Laps. Rain Master.
Remember, 3 Pole Positions, 10 Wins and 10 Fastest Laps after 5 years in a top team are mediocre results. You know who you are.
Appreciate 2
ntg442025.50
yco3016.00

      11-09-2020, 09:27 PM   #4
apexit4
Major
Poland
1132
Rep
1,071
Posts

Drives: 335D M-Sport, X5D
Join Date: Apr 2018
Location: Maryland

iTrader: (0)

Renault was also a big proponent of the switch to hybrid engines. Blaming Mercedes for the current engine formula isnt entirely correct.

Personally, Id prefer that engine development is allowed to continue. In a time where the FIA is restricting more and more development on these cars, it seems like we are slowly inching our way to a spec series. I like the technological side of the sport and all the crazy technology and solutions that the teams come up with, its part of what makes F1 what it is.

But all that being said, Red Bull actually voted against an engine freeze earlier this year stating that a lock down on development would cause Honda to leave the sport. The fact that they have change their tune in the past month indicates two things. First, they just dont want to dump money into constantly upgrading the Honda engine (which is undoubtedly a huge expense with little pay off outside of F1). Second, they seem to be hell bent on doing everything so they dont have to be a customer of Renault again. I cant help but feel there is a bit of arrogance in the Red Bull team. They dont admit to any blunders with how fast they dropper some promising talent and going back to Renault would be a sign that they made a bad choice jumping to Honda. As with most things all teams in F1 lobby for, the engine freeze is a self serving move.
Appreciate 3
yco3016.00
MKSixer27902.00
minn198018.00

      11-09-2020, 10:03 PM   #5
rcracin
Captain
637
Rep
963
Posts

Drives: M3
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: NYC

iTrader: (3)

Budget caps and engine freezes are ridiculous. F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. F1 teams create what trickles down to everyday life. F1 teams should not be restricted. If Liberty Media wants to make sure teams stay, find other ways to do it. It just sounds like a whole lot of sore loser talk from the Red Bull camp. Haas isn’t giving up. Nor is Racing Point. Hell, even Williams is still in it.

Also, RB wouldn’t just leave. They’d sell the team. Call em out on their bullshit and let’s get back to racing.
Appreciate 4
dbarton62648.50
yco3016.00
MKSixer27902.00
minn198018.00

      11-10-2020, 01:07 PM   #6
CalAcacian
Second Lieutenant
167
Rep
234
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Orange County, California

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcracin View Post
Budget caps and engine freezes are ridiculous. F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. F1 teams create what trickles down to everyday life. F1 teams should not be restricted. If Liberty Media wants to make sure teams stay, find other ways to do it. It just sounds like a whole lot of sore loser talk from the Red Bull camp. Haas isn’t giving up. Nor is Racing Point. Hell, even Williams is still in it.

Also, RB wouldn’t just leave. They’d sell the team. Call em out on their bullshit and let’s get back to racing.
I would love to see teams rocking billion dollar budgets too, but that just isn't realistic. The return on investment simply isn't there to justify that kind of spending. The budget cuts are happening at the request of the teams because most of them can't afford to compete in an uncapped market.

F1 hasn't been about true, no holds barred development for the better part of 20 years. It's a fiction that fans tell themselves and that the sport perpetuates.

Frankly, F1 tech rarely trickles down to "everyday life." Sure, some high end sports cars come with carbon ceramic brakes, HANS restraints are a part of some other motorsports, KERS was a pipe dream for road cars that has since been abandoned, MGU-K's haven't been successfully transferred to any road cars yet, and while active suspension is often attributed to F1, it really came from Citroen.

I love F1, and I love the innovation, but imagining we're in the late 80's and that teams can purely innovate their way to success without a commanding budget is something that can't happen in the middle of a formula scheduled to last 12 years.
Appreciate 0
      11-10-2020, 05:36 PM   #7
yco
i'm just saying
yco's Avatar
3016
Rep
2,150
Posts

Drives: E71 X6M '10 (sold)
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Istanbul & Kyiv

iTrader: (0)

lets give all teams a couple of Merc' engines and we can see its not all about the engine.. since F1 is not a cup series it wont happen of course.. Red Bull leaving F1 is not good for their brand rep as well but they can live surely without F1.. and i believe F1 can live without Red Bull as well..

budget cap is needed for smaller teams but im not sure it ll mean they can be successful that way as well.. cause its a big team sport that each personnel counts and managers decisions teams general mood and efficiency plays a big role.. i believe F1 needs some simplification, if going back to NA engines is not possible getting rid of some electronics or at least make them common can work..

but more importantly urgent thing is reducing the aero factor in all Formula series if needed.. cause its not a time attack event in the end and some action is needed both for drivers and fans..

i told this earlier may sound radical but overtaking mostly possible on braking in motorsports unless the car in front makes a mistake.. make F1 brakes less efficient and make them have a longer braking distance.. this will give drivers more chance to overtake and instead of braking 1m (which ll be 0.0XX timing error on hard braking points) can ruin everything a longer braking distance will make things slower on braking and overtaking easier.. with this aero package braking is crazy efficient.. i dont mind cars going slower cause if a driver cant follow a car because of the disturbed air there is nothing do from tech side and drivers side anyway.. and from safety side.. when things go wrong, like losing control locked wheels erases the strongest brakes anyway.. and actually in F1 they use the full braking force only on the initial braking part.. lets diminish that part..
__________________
"Race car driving is like sex. All guys think they're good at it." Jay Leno
Appreciate 1
MKSixer27902.00

      11-10-2020, 09:38 PM   #8
MKSixer
Lieutenant General
MKSixer's Avatar
27902
Rep
10,803
Posts

Drives: 2015 BMW i8, E63 M6, 328d
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Southeast United States

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2016 M4 GTS (Allotted)  [0.00]
2013 BMW 328d  [0.00]
2007 BMW M6  [5.00]
2015 BMW i8  [5.00]
Lots of great suggestions here but I don't believe in going backwards. I'm 100% ok with an engine freeze with an investment in performance updates allowed every other season.

Aero should come 65-80% from the floor with the wings only used for trimming the car. Further, there should be a total downforce limit

Let's leave braking alone because it's a great part for knowledgable fans to watch and really separates the merely good from the great. It's a hallmark of HAMs performance as well as RICs.

Now for the two most important points:

BRING BACK REFUELING. Turn F1 into sprint racing again.

OPEN A TIRE TENDER for 3 Manufacturers again.

And for the future: Make each team run a 3rd car for rookies during the European part of the season. The scores don't count for the WCC or WDC. This will give promising drivers a ride in the big show. Maybe one of the slap-dicks will lose their seat to one of the young guns.
__________________
Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond...
Sir 7ewis, 7X FIA Formula One World Championship, World Driving Champion. 95 Wins. 98 Pole Positions. 53 Fastest Laps. Rain Master.
Remember, 3 Pole Positions, 10 Wins and 10 Fastest Laps after 5 years in a top team are mediocre results. You know who you are.
Appreciate 3
yco3016.00

      11-10-2020, 11:14 PM   #9
whitstap
Private
50
Rep
92
Posts

Drives: 15 f80 m3
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Jupiter, FL

iTrader: (1)

I agree Indy car road course and street course racing is more interesting simply because they fuel during pit stops, not necessarily because it’s a spec car, otherwise F1 is way better of course
Appreciate 1
MKSixer27902.00

      11-11-2020, 02:43 AM   #10
SenorFunkyPants
Brigadier General
SenorFunkyPants's Avatar
United Kingdom
1301
Rep
3,907
Posts

Drives: 2019 M5
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: UK

iTrader: (0)

Unsurprising Red Bull change their ideals on an engine freeze depending on what suits them rather than whats best for the sport.
Mercedes are fine with a freeze or without...works both ways for them.
I suspect Ferrari and Renault would vote against a freeze if they believed they still had the possibility of catching up to Mercedes in PU development.

Any teams that try and blackmail the sport by threatening to leave, should be courteously shown the door as far as I am concerned...Especially Red Bull.

Don't think refuelling is a good idea. Its extra cost and complexity for no racing benefit.
Nor having multiple tyre manufacturers...that simply benefits the teams with the manufacturer who produces the best tyres.

I think the FIA need to change the tyre rules such that tyre management no longer is the quickest way to complete a race.
Such as having to make a minimum of 2 pit stops and/or use each of the 3 tyre compounds at least once...or whatever.

Complete and implement the research on how to allow cars to follow each other without losing performance and preferably ditch the DRS system.
Appreciate 0
      11-11-2020, 09:53 AM   #11
yco
i'm just saying
yco's Avatar
3016
Rep
2,150
Posts

Drives: E71 X6M '10 (sold)
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Istanbul & Kyiv

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Lots of great suggestions here but I don't believe in going backwards. I'm 100% ok with an engine freeze with an investment in performance updates allowed every other season.

Aero should come 65-80% from the floor with the wings only used for trimming the car. Further, there should be a total downforce limit

Let's leave braking alone because it's a great part for knowledgable fans to watch and really separates the merely good from the great. It's a hallmark of HAMs performance as well as RICs.

Now for the two most important points:

BRING BACK REFUELING. Turn F1 into sprint racing again.

OPEN A TIRE TENDER for 3 Manufacturers again.

And for the future: Make each team run a 3rd car for rookies during the European part of the season. The scores don't count for the WCC or WDC. This will give promising drivers a ride in the big show. Maybe one of the slap-dicks will lose their seat to one of the young guns.
thought about refueling but for that battery juice must go for that.. safety issue is the biggest obstacle for that unfortunately...

and yeah braking will be still crucial but F1 cars stops even crazier recently which i havent seen the hybrid era braking with my bare eyes but stats are clear..
__________________
"Race car driving is like sex. All guys think they're good at it." Jay Leno
Appreciate 0
      11-11-2020, 11:37 AM   #12
MKSixer
Lieutenant General
MKSixer's Avatar
27902
Rep
10,803
Posts

Drives: 2015 BMW i8, E63 M6, 328d
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Southeast United States

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2016 M4 GTS (Allotted)  [0.00]
2013 BMW 328d  [0.00]
2007 BMW M6  [5.00]
2015 BMW i8  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by yco View Post
thought about refueling but for that battery juice must go for that.. safety issue is the biggest obstacle for that unfortunately...

and yeah braking will be still crucial but F1 cars stops even crazier recently which i havent seen the hybrid era braking with my bare eyes but stats are clear..
Then let it go!!

Whatever it takes to bring back sprint racing I'm all for. We need to end the following farcical elements:

1. Lift and Coast
2. Drive to a Delta
3. Maintaining the Gap
4. Holding positions
5. Manage your tires.
6. Brake Temps too high

Can anyone else think of any other gems that have turned F1 into short endurance races?
__________________
Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond...
Sir 7ewis, 7X FIA Formula One World Championship, World Driving Champion. 95 Wins. 98 Pole Positions. 53 Fastest Laps. Rain Master.
Remember, 3 Pole Positions, 10 Wins and 10 Fastest Laps after 5 years in a top team are mediocre results. You know who you are.
Appreciate 1
yco3016.00

      11-11-2020, 12:23 PM   #13
racerbruce
Colonel
racerbruce's Avatar
2466
Rep
2,159
Posts

Drives: 2007 Z4MR Imola Red
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Seattle

iTrader: (1)

Well said -

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Then let it go!!

Whatever it takes to bring back sprint racing I'm all for. We need to end the following farcical elements:

1. Lift and Coast
2. Drive to a Delta
3. Maintaining the Gap
4. Holding positions
5. Manage your tires.
6. Brake Temps too high

Can anyone else think of any other gems that have turned F1 into short endurance races?
Perhaps extra points awarded for the highest number of laps led for each GP.
__________________
Racerbruce
OZ Rims / Bilstein B8 Struts & Shocks / Eibach Pro-Kit Springs / ZHP Control Arms / RE Diablo Exhaust / RPi Air Intake / BMC Air Filter / CDV / RE Trans Mounts / 3M Paint Protection / TMS CF Grilles / TK CF Mirrors / Skyer CF Spoiler / CF Antenna / M Pedals & Dead Pedal / CoCo Floor Mats / WeissLicht LED Rear Turn Signal Lamps / #748 of 3,041
Appreciate 1
MKSixer27902.00

      11-11-2020, 04:35 PM   #14
yco
i'm just saying
yco's Avatar
3016
Rep
2,150
Posts

Drives: E71 X6M '10 (sold)
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Istanbul & Kyiv

iTrader: (0)

Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Then let it go!!

Whatever it takes to bring back sprint racing I'm all for. We need to end the following farcical elements:

1. Lift and Coast
2. Drive to a Delta
3. Maintaining the Gap
4. Holding positions
5. Manage your tires.
6. Brake Temps too high

Can anyone else think of any other gems that have turned F1 into short endurance races?
they re all a bit integrated MK.. fuel saving and tire management is the ultimate sprint killers in my opinion.. i hate tyre management part for some time already.. and yeah brake temps are so high.. if you cant get close to the car in front to overtake whats the point of shaving some time from aero right..
if you ask an engineer he d probably say, brake temps shouldnt be that low as well it should optimal i need data for it but still it doesnt make sense for primary thing.. overtaking..

then i ll share an other one i told this in some other thread..
racing line's higher grip is ok.. but most of the time except the racing line almost tracks are so dirty that has no compromise to even think take another line.. or go off from the racing line even on the straights that much cause all the dirt sticks to the tires.. tracks needs to be cleaner.. and i dont think cleaning will be that hard each municipality uses such machinery all over the world.. 5-10 of them can make a difference in few hours or less on each track.. it ll be better for race starts as well.. and i guess you ll send these ideas to somewhere..
__________________
"Race car driving is like sex. All guys think they're good at it." Jay Leno
Appreciate 1
MKSixer27902.00

      11-12-2020, 09:47 AM   #15
MKSixer
Lieutenant General
MKSixer's Avatar
27902
Rep
10,803
Posts

Drives: 2015 BMW i8, E63 M6, 328d
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Southeast United States

iTrader: (0)

Garage List
2016 M4 GTS (Allotted)  [0.00]
2013 BMW 328d  [0.00]
2007 BMW M6  [5.00]
2015 BMW i8  [5.00]
Quote:
Originally Posted by yco View Post
they re all a bit integrated MK.. fuel saving and tire management is the ultimate sprint killers in my opinion.. i hate tyre management part for some time already.. and yeah brake temps are so high.. if you cant get close to the car in front to overtake whats the point of shaving some time from aero right..
if you ask an engineer he d probably say, brake temps shouldnt be that low as well it should optimal i need data for it but still it doesnt make sense for primary thing.. overtaking..

then i ll share an other one i told this in some other thread..
racing line's higher grip is ok.. but most of the time except the racing line almost tracks are so dirty that has no compromise to even think take another line.. or go off from the racing line even on the straights that much cause all the dirt sticks to the tires.. tracks needs to be cleaner.. and i dont think cleaning will be that hard each municipality uses such machinery all over the world.. 5-10 of them can make a difference in few hours or less on each track.. it ll be better for race starts as well.. and i guess you ll send these ideas to somewhere..
These are great points. CF brakes work differently than steel composite but the basic principles remain the same. Sacrifice aero for proper cooling and mandate a minimum inlet size along with 3 disc sizes just like they do tires to be run at each track. Cars out of the race because of brake failure is total BS.

And you are 100% correct. I love green track racing. They should sweep the track after each session and start from zero. It will separate the very good from the great. The track condition would change on every lap just like racing in wet-changing conditions. This should be mandated.

Cheers-mk
__________________
Several actors have played James Bond, Sean Connery IS James Bond...
Sir 7ewis, 7X FIA Formula One World Championship, World Driving Champion. 95 Wins. 98 Pole Positions. 53 Fastest Laps. Rain Master.
Remember, 3 Pole Positions, 10 Wins and 10 Fastest Laps after 5 years in a top team are mediocre results. You know who you are.
Appreciate 1
yco3016.00

      11-17-2020, 01:51 PM   #16
CalAcacian
Second Lieutenant
167
Rep
234
Posts

Drives: 2018 M2
Join Date: Sep 2020
Location: Orange County, California

iTrader: (0)

Well, after Turkey I guess we should just be resurfacing tracks before every race. Besides Lewis putting on an absolute masterclass and coasting to the front (what an incredible show of raw talent to take his 7th titles), that was a great race with huge penalties for overdriving the conditions.
Appreciate 2
MKSixer27902.00

Post Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:09 AM.




bmw
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2021, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
1Addicts.com, BIMMERPOST.com, E90Post.com, F30Post.com, M3Post.com, ZPost.com, 5Post.com, 6Post.com, 7Post.com, XBimmers.com logo and trademark are properties of BIMMERPOST