[_icarus]

Originally Posted by LoneStar

Both cars in AMS had adaptive suspension and sport brakes

60 kg is nearly the truth of engine with aggregates and in-/outtake and OPF.

Know what, you go ahead and believe what you like. If you're gonna completely ignore the largest pieces of the argument (like the engine being longer, putting more % of its weight on the front axle) and instead pretend like much smaller things like brakes explain everything, there's no point arguing with you.

If you wanna believe the utter fiction that BMW's 2.0 engine is somehow about 20% lighter than their competitors' engines half that size, then knock yourself out

[LoneStar]

Originally Posted by _icarus

Know what, you go ahead and believe what you like. If you're gonna completely ignore the largest pieces of the argument (like the engine being longer, putting more % of its weight on the front axle) and instead pretend like much smaller things like brakes explain everything, there's no point arguing with you.

If you wanna believe the utter fiction that BMW's 2.0 engine is somehow about 20% lighter than their competitors' engines half that size, then knock yourself out

sorry sir, I can‘t follow. Both cars are equipped similiar and engine + aggregates and other components like larger opf sums up to 50-60kg in the front only. I see no reason to argue about that.

Beyond that, I had them all: M240i vs B48 (220i), 530D/520D, 330D/320D - they drive completely different, regarding handling and balance. Some cares, others not, it depends how and where you drive. I care about, because lots of mountain roads and it‘s great fun to throw a nimble car in the curves without loosing the driving license.

Hence who is keen of a ligther car at all with even better handling omits the wide tyres and sport brakes (possible only with 20i/30i) to get around 25kg unsprung mass less on top, which counts factor 7, it gets even a more attractive package.

After drilling down the facts, it is still no easy decision, because the R6 is a class leading engine and one day I like just the powerdelivery and emotional sound, the other the ligther car with better handling.

So I made up my mind and just get both of it

[BEAR-AvHistory]

For all this weigh thing why don't you just get a MX-5 at 2341lbs? Will also save about $20,000 over an S30i & $40,000 over a M40i. Sounds like a deal made in heaven for someone looking for a light sports car.

On a big box parking lot AutoX the MX-5 will most likely kick both cars asses.

Also its hard to see how the weight spread being talked about here makes any difference on a street driven car. Cars driven on the street are not being driven fast enough to push either package.

That is unless you drive it stupid fast, 8-9/10's, and then you are dangerous. Thing is 8-9/10 in the S30i may be 7-8/10 in the M40i as the 40 has a higher G test score.

Find it hard to believe the car with the worse G test is the better handler.

Found this interesting that Miss Piggy the 3900lb+ M4C also has a higher G score than the S30i. How can that be?

Skinny tires will just reduce the contact patch reducing traction on dry roads. They will also extend stopping distances. The car with better handling is the one which can generate higher G numbers in turns.

BMW runs with built in understeer to protect untrained drivers. The car that can't sustain an equal G load will just drive off the road nose first first.

There is one main reason to buy a S30i and its not better handling its to save $20,000. These debates have been going on as long as I have been on the BMW sites. Just swap the 330i for the S30i & the M340i for the M40i or the 230 vs the M240.

Same old, Same old the less expensive version of the car is just as good a performer as the more expensive version because......pick something

Think the whole thing is a total crock designed to generate posts.

You like drilling down and said this.

wish for a nimble roadster and light weigth driving experience, with lively feedback,

You must not be talking about the same BMW as I am. Professional test results for the Z4 S30i over the road from Greater Los Angeles three hours north to Lake Isabella by Car & Driver:

"The body rolls and bobs with larger motions, and the steering does little to inspire confidence. The BMW's pudgy M Sport steering wheel ties to a variable-ratio rack that's too quick, imprecise in S-curve transitions, and wanting for more feedback."

[LoneStar]

the MX5 can't be used with two large adults, it's just that simple. The head is in the wind and leg room on the right is too short.

I had it already: a real fun car, but not usable for us, especially on long trips.

The engine lacks punch too, no comparison to the B48 turbo.

And as I stated before: It's not the money and sometimes less is more.

[Amadeo]

Originally Posted by LoneStar

the MX5 can't be used with two large adults, it's just that simple. The head is in the wind and leg room on the right is too short.

I had it already: a real fun car, but not usable for us, especially on long trips.

The engine lacks punch too, no comparison to the B48 turbo.

And as I stated before: It's not the money and sometimes less is more.

Money is not always the reason to choose the 30i or the m40.
Price difference in Europe between a full expect 30i and the m40 is minimum, about 7.000€. There might be other reasons like depending where you live in the world, you might not be able to drive the m40 in some city centers because of emissions, a prospective buyer might have to pay higher taxes also because of that.And some people might prefer,been right or wrong a lighter and more agile car but with less engine power.

[DPelletier]

There is one main reason to buy a S30i and its not better handling its to save $20,000. These debates have been going on as long as I have been on the BMW sites. Just swap the 330i for the S30i & the M340i for the M40i or the 230 vs the N240.

Same old, Same old the less expensive version of the car is just as good a performer as the more expensive version because......pick something


Yep this; there was the same discussion on the Jaguar forum from the V6 guys trying to defend their purchase vs. the V8 owners by trying to convince themselves or others that the V6 had some perceived handling difference where every road and track test showed no such thing.

I'm with Bear and the others; buy the 30i if you like - it's a great car but don't do it because it's faster in any way, shape or form or because there will be a significant difference in the driving dynamics; the 40i is simply superior in any performance contest period. The 30i is cheaper and gets a bit better mileage.

Dave

[Amadeo]

This is a german opinion about it.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

You know what they say about opinions & a body part that everyone has one.

Tester is at the Greer SC BMW site for its driving schools & PCD program.

Opinion from a guy who BTW gave the S30 a very good review, one of the most positive I read.

youtu.be/n0lNiZaldiE

Three interesting phrases that cover a lot of territory if you don't want to watch the whole vid:

1. This M40i chassis is the Goldilocks - he is talking about the S30i & M8 convert.

2. Canadians have this right, only importing the M40i - most telling.

3. BMW Z4 M40i 6 cylinders fixes all previous sins! - not clear what the old sins were.

[LoneStar]

I ask the question again: how track experience relates to common driving?

It‘s nice to know that the car could, but what it means to the driver in a real world scenario when the limits are far beyond?

[COKen]

Originally Posted by LoneStar

I ask the question again: how track experience relates to common driving?

It‘s nice to know that the car could, but what it means to the driver in a real world scenario when the limits are far beyond?

Track and/or autocross experience helps to learn the limits of your car and how to safely recover from unexpected situations when "common driving".

[DPelletier]

Originally Posted by LoneStar

I ask the question again: how track experience relates to common driving?

It‘s nice to know that the car could, but what it means to the driver in a real world scenario when the limits are far beyond?

What exactly would you learn about a car driven at the speed limit and adhering to all laws? ....If you don't care about how a car performs at or anywhere near it's limits or where those limits are, and only plan on driving within the speed limits, etc. then you may as well drive a minivan.

Obviously, performance (acceleration, road holding, braking, steering, etc.) isn't the only metric to consider when buying a street driven car otherwise we'd all only drive Cayman GT4's or something similar but I think most of us want to know what those performance limits are and how they compare to the competition when buying a sportscar. I know I do.

2 cents,
Dave

[LoneStar]

are the limits to far, normal driving get's often boring, that's the point.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Originally Posted by LoneStar

I ask the question again: how track experience relates to common driving?

It‘s nice to know that the car could, but what it means to the driver in a real world scenario when the limits are far beyond?

Might save your life and anyone with you on the street

Agree with DPelletier & COKen

Have taken delivery of almost all my BMW's at the PCD. You get to drive a BMW owned version of the car you bought.

Found that about 80% of the participants are pretty timid in handling the events.

One is very very easy accelerate to a specific speed hit the brakes at a specific point don't run through the cones at the end while continuing to brake & turning left to avoid running over the cones.

Some totally fail & kill the cones others make the turn while stopping.
A very few will stop before you have to make the turn to avoid the cones. That usually gets a thumbs up from the instructor.

My goal has always been to push the cars as far as I can to see what will happen & work out how to control it. Have pushed hard enough during some evolutions that the car wound up ass backward in the dirt. My grandson did the same thing at the BMW teen school.

In their regular performance driving school have worn fresh front tires out by lunch the second day. There are some timed events & the winner gets a little red cone.

Less that half the class of drivers who have signed up for a pure performance school & paid $2000 actually run very hard. One event I remember the spread 1st to last 20 drivers was over 14 seconds with the best time 22.38 seconds.

Have a lot of confidence in handling a sudden emergency in traffic.

FWIW or not. The Cobras many of us have built weigh about 2250/2450lbs without the driver & run from 300BHP to 700BHP+ and have no drivers aids.

The common thread of advice to new constructors is do some local AutoX to learn how to manage these short wheel base cars.

What I tell the guys who I have helped build or are in my local group is hit a local big box parking lot early Sunday morning to get a feel for the cars limits. Good to do in a dry & rainy day.

RE Miata's that I recommend for a light great handling car. One of our guys said this.

"I mistakenly ran CAM-S this year (got bored reading the class descriptions and picked something close).

Got waxed by 2019 vettes and the like, but still had fun. Next year I will run XP and still get waxed by the Miata guy that's afraid to compete with the other Miata's.

Like others have said, I'm no threat for the FTOD in any case."

[DavesZupra4]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

Might save your life and anyone with you on the street

Agree with DPelletier & COKen

Have taken delivery of almost all my BMW's at the PCD. You get to drive a BMW owned version of the car you bought.

Found that about 80% of the participants are pretty timid in handling the events.

One is very very easy accelerate to a specific speed hit the brakes at a specific point don't run through the cones at the end while continuing to brake & turning left to avoid running over the cones.

Some totally fail & kill the cones others make the turn while stopping.
A very few will stop before you have to make the turn to avoid the cones. That usually gets a thumbs up from the instructor.

My goal has always been to push the cars as far as I can to see what will happen & work out how to control it. Have pushed hard enough during some evolutions that the car wound up ass backward in the dirt. My grandson did the same thing at the BMW teen school.

In their regular performance driving school have worn fresh front tires out by lunch the second day. There are some timed events & the winner gets a little red cone.

Less that half the class of drivers who have signed up for a pure performance school & paid $2000 actually run very hard. One event I remember the spread 1st to last 20 drivers was over 14 seconds with the best time 22.38 seconds.

Have a lot of confidence in handling a sudden emergency in traffic.

FWIW or not. The Cobras many of us have built weigh about 2250/2450lbs without the driver & run from 300BHP to 700BHP+ and have no drivers aids.

The common thread of advice to new constructors is do some local AutoX to learn how to manage these short wheel base cars.

What I tell the guys who I have helped build or are in my local group is hit a local big box parking lot early Sunday morning to get a feel for the cars limits. Good to do in a dry & rainy day.

RE Miata's that I recommend for a light great handling car. One of our guys said this.

"I mistakenly ran CAM-S this year (got bored reading the class descriptions and picked something close).

Got waxed by 2019 vettes and the like, but still had fun. Next year I will run XP and still get waxed by the Miata guy that's afraid to compete with the other Miata's.

Like others have said, I'm no threat for the FTOD in any case."

AS someone born in Vienna and live in America I understand completely why Germans get rid of manuals while Americans still don't.

It has exactly to do with your reply here.

American car culture really picked up when fast and furious came out and then it's Tokyo drift version. I would say nearly ALL of the young ones today buy these fast cars and "tune" them for one thing only (which even this simple and dumbed down thing they do makes them break a massive sweat and nearly have a brain meltdown), which is to just go fast in a straight line, or race in a straight line, or go on the drap strip. This is why accidents happen with these young morons because their brains just can't handle how to effing turn and handle the car properly especially when they have to react QUICKLY BUT ALSO CORRECTLY to avoid a collision or also when there is a corner, they think they're taking it "fast" but are most likely 50% slower on average than what an average car enthusiast in Europe would have taken. They also truly believe drifting a car on a track will make them do a lap "faster" belive it or not. I've taken a few people who mod their cars built for corners like the new supra or whatever into ugly drag machines with ugly small wheels but massive radials just for drag racing on the track. When we arrived there they had this fake look of "im bored" face and a look of confusion. Even after many laps to learn the track and get better they were still 50% slower than me even on their best lap vs my average. They quickly wanted to leave and go back to going in a straight line on the drag strip because their minds think somehow drag racing is more skillful than lap times?? I don't know how they think holding the wheel straight and mashing thr gas is fun? It's effing boring but that's all their puny brains can handle because in America everything is dumbed down, such as fast and furious straight line racing, "racing" by drifting in Tokyo drift, drag racing, nascar, etc. In Europe they have the GT races and Formula 1, you know, the sport an Americans brain would have a stroke watching. "No its impossible. It's dangerous you can't take a corner that fast because if we can't do it as Americans aka the bestest people and country on earth then no one can"

On the other hand you have the classic and older Americans who grw up with classic cars and manual transmissions. They can't understand the shift to paddles and fast transmissions only because for them, the manual was about feeling "in control" while driving at the limit which they could handle, meaning usually once again at least 20% slower on the upper end to like 80% slower on the lower end on tracks or curvy roads vs Europeans.


Europeans like Germans force the paddle shifting fast autos because they value something that takes the MOST SKILL and BRAINPOWER, pushing the car around a lap AS FAST AND AS HARD AS POSSIBLE TAKING THE CORNERS AT 100% or even sometimes slightly above 100% the cars MAXIMUM.ABILITY. Americans usually don't even approach 50% and just drive in straifht lines and still end up losing control and crashing. If we had an autobahn in America there would be casualties daily with young "I just watched fast and furious" type morons who think they're "pro" but crash because any surprise on the road and they lose control and kill themselves and others whereas in Germany surprises either don't happen as people pay attention or the driver handles it smoothly even to the point drinks don't spill in the car.

I'm sorry to say this but I grew up in Europe and have lived in America also for 20 years and know Americans EXTREMELY WELL compared to Europeans and their culture and methods. They don't take things easy or dumb things down. Straifht line is boring. Going in a circle is boring and small minded for them. Manuals, too effing slow and outdated. Paddles were Introruced in formula 1 over 25 years ago for a reason. To get the fastest lap. I know I have already insulted nearly everyone here and Americans will especially once again perhaps take it too seriously and get emotional rather than shrug it off (unless your older and more experienced) but I'm just speaking from experience and what I've observed through decades. I'm not saying EVERYONE must get a sports car to push it to the max, I'm saying that some of the classic folk need to understand the Germans view for the reason they don't include manual transmissions anymore. They want to wean the old school way out of the publics mind and change their focus to lap times and track performance

[StanDiego]

Originally Posted by DavesZupra4

AS someone born in Vienna and live in America I understand completely why Germans get rid of manuals while Americans still don't...

...I know I have already insulted nearly everyone here... They want to wean the old school way out of the publics mind and change their focus to lap times and track performance

I'm not insulted so much as disappointed in your stereotyping and belief that you know the "secret".

I don't know the secret but I suspect it's MUCH more than lap times and track performance. Most manufacturers, BMW included, cater to their audience. They manufacture what people buy. No matter how good a model or feature may be, if people don't buy it, manufacturers stop selling it.

BMW hasn't stopped or reduced offering manuals because an automatic/PDK/dual clutch performs better. Like other manufacturers, it's because the automatic gets better fuel economy, is easier to integrate with advanced safety and automation features, and sells far better than the manual. For BMW to offer a manual, it's not just swapping in the transmission. It's also finding a way to integrate the safety and automation features.

Unlike you, I'm generally ignorant of the differences in the way Americans and Europeans drive though I acknowledge that Americans seem to generally feel more nostalgic toward the manual transmission. Perhaps it's the memories of the muscle cars of our youth, perhaps it's the geographical differences between the wide open roads of the U.S. and the roads of Europe. No matter.

If integration of features, fuel economy, safety and regulation compliance was as easy to accomplish AND there was a great enough demand for it, BMW would continue to offer the manual transmission as an option in every model regardless.

Personally, I'd hope that a dual clutch transmission would be offered in the Z4 as it is, ironically, in their MINI models. That wish and $3 will get me a cup of coffee.

[DavesZupra4]

Originally Posted by StanDiego

I'm not insulted so much as disappointed in your stereotyping and belief that you know the "secret".

I don't know the secret but I suspect it's MUCH more than lap times and track performance. Most manufacturers, BMW included, cater to their audience. They manufacture what people buy. No matter how good a model or feature may be, if people don't buy it, manufacturers stop selling it.

BMW hasn't stopped or reduced offering manuals because an automatic/PDK/dual clutch performs better. Like other manufacturers, it's because the automatic gets better fuel economy, is easier to integrate with advanced safety and automation features, and sells far better than the manual. For BMW to offer a manual, it's not just swapping in the transmission. It's also finding a way to integrate the safety and automation features.

Unlike you, I'm generally ignorant of the differences in the way Americans and Europeans drive though I acknowledge that Americans seem to generally feel more nostalgic toward the manual transmission. Perhaps it's the memories of the muscle cars of our youth, perhaps it's the geographical differences between the wide open roads of the U.S. and the roads of Europe. No matter.

If integration of features, fuel economy, safety and regulation compliance was as easy to accomplish AND there was a great enough demand for it, BMW would continue to offer the manual transmission as an option in every model regardless.

Personally, I'd hope that a dual clutch transmission would be offered in the Z4 as it is, ironically, in their MINI models. That wish and $3 will get me a cup of coffee.

That is another reason as well correct for why manuals are gone.

But the choice to specifically not add manuals when they could has quite a bit to do about their preference to maximum track performance over "having fun in the back roads with my 66 Mustang or 06 corvette" as well.

I don't mind the older generations. It's actually the young ones here that are just all about straight line. Some guy I met was so proud of his tesla plaid. He said he would smoke my z4. I told him let's go on a track or hit the very curved roads and we will see. And of course he said "no, it's all about 0/60 and the 1/4 mile". I was smh. I did jab at him subtly though. Told him how it takes so much skill to get a good drag time and how much skill it takes to focus on going straight and holding the wheel steady. Astonishingly he agreed not even realizing I was poking fun at him. I know for a fact a European would Immeadiately detect what I was doing and know I disrespected him and call me out in it.

I know someone will say "oh but it does take skill you need to tune it right, know which wheels and tires to use, and make sure to get a good launch off the line and not spin wheels".

But come on that's child's play compared to being an expert on the track.

[DPelletier]

It takes skill to be at the top of the game in ANY sort of racing...... ;-)

Dave

[stlcdr]

Originally Posted by DPelletier

It takes skill to be at the top of the game in ANY sort of racing...... ;-)

Dave

so, funny story. I’m an immigrant of nearly 30 years, and remember my induction to NASCAR many moons ago. I was talking with a few people and said, ‘what’s so hard about [foot flat to the floor] and [steering wheel turned to the left]?!’ The answer was ‘some people do it better than others’.

[stlcdr]

Originally Posted by StanDiego

I'm not insulted so much as disappointed in your stereotyping and belief that you know the "secret".
…

Aww, don’t be so hard on us non-us born people. It takes time to understand why the US is the way it is. I do believe the US fascination with cars is an anachronism to the rest of the modern western world.

Also, the worst of the US gets exported. Europeans are very sly in keeping their idiocies locked away in the attic.

As noted here, with mostly Americans, there’s a demand for manual transmissions. There’s no real technical advantage these days, so why would anyone want such a thing? There’s no answer that would be a eureka moment. Probably the best answer is ‘because I can’.

[BEAR-AvHistory]

Just some random thoughts from an old fart.

Got my drivers license December 1969

My first car was an AT.

Learned to drive stick bringing home my first sports car TR-3A

First motorcycle was a BSA Lightning in a land of Hogs

Raced both drag & sport in the dim past

In the dim past sticks were quicker than AT. NHRA split classes by MT & AT. Ran sticks. Was one of the last in my group to go AT. Modified AT that was manual shift only.

Lived in England for 8 years passed test for a UK drivers license on the first try (Europeans will understand that comment) My cars were AT's

Think US love of sticks is nostalgia and/or looking for the 'feel' of driving. Also bragging rights that they are 'true' drivers is a big draw.

BMW still makes sticks in some performance cars because there is a viable US market for them.

Have a Z4 because at the time GM was not building the C8 I wanted.

5L DOHC V8 with a 7DCT. (My Cobra is a 5L DOHC V8 with a 5MT) no practical way to install a DCT

They are close with the Z06 but the price opens up some other very nice alternatives.

Least expensive new car I have owned was a FIAT 124 4 door.

[gkgeiger]

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

Just some random thoughts from an old fart.

Got my drivers license December 1969

My first car was an AT.

Learned to drive stick bringing home my first sports car TR-3A

First motorcycle was a BSA Lightning in a land of Hogs

Raced both drag & sport in the dim past

In the dim past sticks were quicker than AT. NHRA split classes by MT & AT. Ran sticks. Was one of the last in my group to go AT. Modified AT that was manual shift only.

Lived in England for 8 years passed test for a UK drivers license on the first try (Europeans will understand that comment) My cars were AT's

Think US love of sticks is nostalgia and/or looking for the 'feel' of driving. Also bragging rights that they are 'true' drivers is a big draw.

BMW still makes sticks in some performance cars because there is a viable US market for them.

Have a Z4 because at the time GM was not building the C8 I wanted.

5L DOHC V8 with a 7DCT. (My Cobra is a 5L DOHC V8 with a 5MT) no practical way to install a DCT

They are close with the Z06 but the price opens up some other very nice alternatives.

Least expensive new car I have owned was a FIAT 124 4 door.

I got my license on my birthday in 1961. My car was a 54 Ford business coupe, 3 speed on the column. First MC was a 48 Royal Enfield. I rode and raced bikes for 58 years, had to quit at 72 because of back problems. Drag raced in the 60’s. I’ve owned and built more cars than I can count. A new Z06 would be my dream car. My soon to be Z4 will be a close second. Take care.

[DPelletier]

Originally Posted by stlcdr

so, funny story. I’m an immigrant of nearly 30 years, and remember my induction to NASCAR many moons ago. I was talking with a few people and said, ‘what’s so hard about [foot flat to the floor] and [steering wheel turned to the left]?!’ The answer was ‘some people do it better than others’.

Yep; I've been in a NASCAR and I can guarantee it isn't as easy as it looks on TV!. I've also spent time drag racing and spending time pitting for my buddy who built his own 7 second door slammer.....again, not easy.

Obviously I care about handling or I'd have bought a Hellcat instead of a Z4, but it's silly to suggest that only a certain kind of racing takes skill. I guess I could say that driving around corners on the pavement is a piece of cake compared to racing motorcycles through the bush offroad - which I spent 40 years doing... but I wouldn't.

Dave