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      10-01-2015, 10:04 PM   #67
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Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
So then God didn't create planets, solar system, or mankind since they were created by natural phenomena, and your claim is that God is a supernatural entity
By extension, God created everything (this universe and everything inside it). Sure, you can try and reduce it to "natural phenomena" all you like, but you're leaving gaping holes in all of creation.

All creation is God-breathed. He touched all of it. Could he have used the fact that gravity pulls dense gasses and particles together to create planets and stars? Sure, in fact he did. Doesn't change the fact that God made it and it is being sustained by the power of his word.

God, to us and by definition, is supernatural. We cannot explain him using natural laws, making him supernatural.
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      10-01-2015, 10:15 PM   #68
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Originally Posted by Doc Oc View Post
Our number one instinct above all others in life is self preservation. IMO, believing in God is self preservation, so it strikes a very instinctual chord in many people. Common sense and facts don't offer any reward (life after death) so why even consider them? There's no upside.

Why is it so hard for people to accept that we are related to the great apes? Go to a zoo, look at one for chrissake....open your eyes. They have opposable thumbs, can speak with sign language, smile, laugh, love, think and reason. I've spent the day with a juvenile orangatan, it was smarter than most 5 year olds and the most amazing creature I've ever seen. Like a hairy little person who didn't talk much. To think that we are somehow a completely different animal, hand selected for eternal paradise by a benevolent super being, even though we are nearly identical in genetics and appearance is ridiculous to me. How do we have a soul and they do not? The only difference between us and them is that we are the smarter species, just like certain breeds of dogs are smarter than others. Unfortunately we became smart enough to understand our own mortality, which makes us cling to religion against all common sense and evidence.
Common sense and facts point to God. For example- fact: we are here. This universe exists. This fact itself must mean there is a creator.

If it was really self-preservation as a major motivation, you better not believe in the Christian God. You have no power to save yourself in Christianity. You cannot get to God through your own works. It is by grace you are saved.

If you deny that humans are so very different than what you're calling our animal cousins then we have a lot of ground to cover.

We are so incredibly different its not even funny. Please, talk to me when apes walk on the moon of their own accord.

We get excited when an ape can match colors together. Human children can do that and we don't even consider it a real accomplishment.

Apes have no knowledge of morality or even the ability to comprehend the supernatural or their own existence. The fact that we can even comprehend these things should tell you how different we are. Apes have no moral law to live by, they do what nature demands of them. How on earth did we just somehow randomly get smart enough to understand morality? One can't understand his own morality without appealing to some higher moral being. Moral law can't come from within you.

Case and point: Humans and apes are so ridicoulsly different I'm not sure why we are having this discussion.
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      10-01-2015, 10:32 PM   #69
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Does God really need our help proving him?
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      10-01-2015, 11:06 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
Common sense and facts point to God. For example- fact: we are here. This universe exists. This fact itself must mean there is a creator.

If it was really self-preservation as a major motivation, you better not believe in the Christian God. You have no power to save yourself in Christianity. You cannot get to God through your own works. It is by grace you are saved.

If you deny that humans are so very different than what you're calling our animal cousins then we have a lot of ground to cover.

We are so incredibly different its not even funny. Please, talk to me when apes walk on the moon of their own accord.

We get excited when an ape can match colors together. Human children can do that and we don't even consider it a real accomplishment.

Apes have no knowledge of morality or even the ability to comprehend the supernatural or their own existence. The fact that we can even comprehend these things should tell you how different we are. Apes have no moral law to live by, they do what nature demands of them. How on earth did we just somehow randomly get smart enough to understand morality? One can't understand his own morality without appealing to some higher moral being. Moral law can't come from within you.

Case and point: Humans and apes are so ridicoulsly different I'm not sure why we are having this discussion.
Your logic is ridiculous. Because they don't have language (as defined by you) or technology or morality (thats a laugh, who has been responsible for more mass genocide, us or them?) we can't possibly be related? That is very obtuse and arrogant. Mankind so wants to believe it is special and above all else. DNA testing and genome mapping says you are absolutely wrong though. But who needs that when you have undeniable proof in the form of "we are here". Just because we don't yet fully understand a thing doesn't mean it is the work of a deity. Humans have been worshipping something or another since we became smart enough to grasp the concept. If internet forums existed 5000 years ago you'd be telling me how I was foolish not to worship Atum as he was the god who coughed up everything in existence.

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      10-01-2015, 11:19 PM   #71
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I'm curious as to how Christians justify their version of God being more legitimate or real than other religions versions of God, considering all they're going off of is a bunch of old stories written by people thousands of years ago who had no concept of how nature and the physics of the earth worked. I was raised Catholic, and I never received a straight answer on this from any of the priests I asked this to.
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      10-02-2015, 07:49 AM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
I'm curious as to how Christians justify their version of God being more legitimate or real than other religions versions of God, considering all they're going off of is a bunch of old stories written by people thousands of years ago who had no concept of how nature and the physics of the earth worked. I was raised Catholic, and I never received a straight answer on this from any of the priests I asked this to.
Its a matter of faith, not that faith is a bad thing, but one has to learn to think for themselves by using their mind and intellect.
Take the stories in the scriptures with a grain of salt.
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      10-03-2015, 11:02 AM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///WORK-F36 View Post
I'm curious as to how Christians justify their version of God being more legitimate or real than other religions versions of God, considering all they're going off of is a bunch of old stories written by people thousands of years ago who had no concept of how nature and the physics of the earth worked. I was raised Catholic, and I never received a straight answer on this from any of the priests I asked this to.
The Bible explains it this way:

Romans 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1 Corinthians 13:9,10

9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away

Combining those two facts, we see that all men throughout history have been given an innate sense of God. But until Jesus (perfection) came, they only knew in part.

Buddha was a very wise man, because....he took his measure of faith and asked for more. He sought wisdom and God gave it to him, so much so that his followers deified him. Buddha never claimed to be God or the son of God. But his (God-given) wisdom was so profound, those who heard him elevated him to the level of a deity. And... the words of Buddha were VERY similar to those of Jesus. I have a book that is shows the parallel sayings of Buddha and Jesus. Does that mean that Jesus/Christians stole these things from Buddha. Of course not. The SOURCE was the same...God Himself. But, Buddha's message was incomplete. He knew in part and the prophesied (taught) in part. (and Buddha NEVER claimed to be God or the Son of God).

Same was true of the Greeks and Romans and later Muhammad. They all knew in part. They all had a glimpse of the truth, the WHOLE truth did not appear until Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came onto the scene.

And...when you study all other religions (and atheism, evolutionary theory, etc.) - as I have done - you see the holes/gaps/omissions/incompleteness in their belief system.

ONLY Christianity offers the complete explanation, from the beginning of time (Genesis) and the Creation of all things (including earth, the sun and moon, stars and life) to the beginning of eternity (The Book of Revelation). It also gives us dramatic insight to our Creator, how to treat one another, and how to best live our lives so that we get the most and best out of it.

The Bible is NOT just a book of rules. And, it does NOT depict God as some uncaring, mean-spirited, gray-bearded man doing what He wants because He is on a power trip. Those who think and say that are as ignorant as they come. You would have to read the Bible cover-to-cover to see why God did what He did in the Old Testament and you would then understand how and why Dawkins is completely wrong in how he classifies the God of the Old Testament. Dawkins is totally ignorant of the true nature and motives of God and a completely distorts the truth to further his destructive agenda.

So...get over the notion that other religions have some truth to them (because they all have some truth to them) and understand that all were God-inspired from the beginning. These seeds of faith were all planted in them so that people would be ready when the TRUTH (Jesus) came.

Otherwise, everyone would have been as close-minded and hard-hearted as many of you are on this forum. What DID you do with your measure of faith? Who took that away from you? When and how did you get so "wise" that you started thinking you were smarter than God and are the center of the universe?
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      10-03-2015, 11:15 AM   #74
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If anyone is interested both Dawkins and Tyson are on bill Maher this week.
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      10-03-2015, 04:04 PM   #75
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It is astounding to me that the discussion in this thread is essentially a duplicate of "God exists/God does not exist" commentary found in at least two other threads about Christianity. Did anyone other than I watch the program? Does someone have one or several thoughts on the specific remarks and observations contained in the program?

I for one was surprised to see that the entirety of scholarly research to explore whether there is a God or not focused solely on that which was performed or discussed by the Catholic Church. Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't hear so much as one peep from Protestant Christian, Jewish, Islamic, or even polytheistic scholars. Surely those belief systems have just as much interest in demonstrating scientifically that there is a God (or "at least one" in the case of polytheists)? Has anyone here found instances where some faith other than Catholicism is actively using science to search for God?

All the best.
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      10-03-2015, 04:54 PM   #76
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Having read this thread.

I really hope some of the contributors are not allowed access to guns.
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      10-03-2015, 05:17 PM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
Having read this thread.

I really hope some of the contributors are not allowed access to guns.
If you've read their comments in some other threads, you'd know you should order your riot gear -- vest, shield, helmet, etc. -- now.

All the best.
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      10-03-2015, 06:05 PM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Isaiah5411 View Post
The Bible explains it this way:

Romans 12:3

For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.

1 Corinthians 13:9,10

9. For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10. But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away

Combining those two facts, we see that all men throughout history have been given an innate sense of God. But until Jesus (perfection) came, they only knew in part.

Buddha was a very wise man, because....he took his measure of faith and asked for more. He sought wisdom and God gave it to him, so much so that his followers deified him. Buddha never claimed to be God or the son of God. But his (God-given) wisdom was so profound, those who heard him elevated him to the level of a deity. And... the words of Buddha were VERY similar to those of Jesus. I have a book that is shows the parallel sayings of Buddha and Jesus. Does that mean that Jesus/Christians stole these things from Buddha. Of course not. The SOURCE was the same...God Himself. But, Buddha's message was incomplete. He knew in part and the prophesied (taught) in part. (and Buddha NEVER claimed to be God or the Son of God).

Same was true of the Greeks and Romans and later Muhammad. They all knew in part. They all had a glimpse of the truth, the WHOLE truth did not appear until Jesus Christ, the Messiah, came onto the scene.

And...when you study all other religions (and atheism, evolutionary theory, etc.) - as I have done - you see the holes/gaps/omissions/incompleteness in their belief system.

ONLY Christianity offers the complete explanation, from the beginning of time (Genesis) and the Creation of all things (including earth, the sun and moon, stars and life) to the beginning of eternity (The Book of Revelation). It also gives us dramatic insight to our Creator, how to treat one another, and how to best live our lives so that we get the most and best out of it.

The Bible is NOT just a book of rules. And, it does NOT depict God as some uncaring, mean-spirited, gray-bearded man doing what He wants because He is on a power trip. Those who think and say that are as ignorant as they come. You would have to read the Bible cover-to-cover to see why God did what He did in the Old Testament and you would then understand how and why Dawkins is completely wrong in how he classifies the God of the Old Testament. Dawkins is totally ignorant of the true nature and motives of God and a completely distorts the truth to further his destructive agenda.

So...get over the notion that other religions have some truth to them (because they all have some truth to them) and understand that all were God-inspired from the beginning. These seeds of faith were all planted in them so that people would be ready when the TRUTH (Jesus) came.

Otherwise, everyone would have been as close-minded and hard-hearted as many of you are on this forum. What DID you do with your measure of faith? Who took that away from you? When and how did you get so "wise" that you started thinking you were smarter than God and are the center of the universe?
Preach it brother!!
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      10-05-2015, 04:21 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
It is astounding to me that the discussion in this thread is essentially a duplicate of "God exists/God does not exist" commentary found in at least two other threads about Christianity.

Surely those belief systems have just as much interest in demonstrating scientifically that there is a God (or "at least one" in the case of polytheists)? Has anyone here found instances where some faith other than Catholicism is actively using science to search for God?

All the best.
The reason threads such as these generally come full circle is because that fact is one that you have to agree on to move forward into any logical debate/discussion thereof. I mean, if God doesn't exist, nothing can exist, so what are we doing here?

If you examine other religions or worldviews, any educated person can tell that they've got more holes in them than they can get through. Most religions take the path of apathy or one based on "i have faith that he's real so that's good enough for me." It is the Christian's call to demonstrate God's existence and help their fellow brothers in Christ. (Protestant religions use science to get to God too, not just Catholicism)
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      10-05-2015, 05:05 PM   #80
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God is an alien
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      10-05-2015, 05:22 PM   #81
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The big question is he left or right handed?
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      10-05-2015, 05:26 PM   #82
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Obviously right. Lefties are the spawn of the devil
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      10-05-2015, 11:53 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwmsport View Post
The reason threads such as these generally come full circle is because that fact is one that you have to agree on to move forward into any logical debate/discussion thereof. I mean, if God doesn't exist, nothing can exist, so what are we doing here?

If you examine other religions or worldviews, any educated person can tell that they've got more holes in them than they can get through. Most religions take the path of apathy or one based on "i have faith that he's real so that's good enough for me." It is the Christian's call to demonstrate God's existence and help their fellow brothers in Christ. (Protestant religions use science to get to God too, not just Catholicism)
Where's the "circle?" Unless I missed the post(s), I have not seen one member discuss the content from the program. All I've seen is folks launching into their "God exists; God doesn't exist" diatribes.

Do they? I'm sure there's a few who do, but frankly I see nothing (overall) approaching the nature and extent of critical and scholarly scientific research on the part of of any given Protestant faith that even remotely compares with what the Jesuits do. If you wanted the program, you'd see the Jesuits explore full spectrum of the "hard sciences" in their pursuit of establishing empirically (rather than inductively) that God exists. Heck, they even have a modern telescope (housed inside a secular observatory) to look for God (or His hand) at the start of the Big Bang.

Note: I'm referring to any single, named belief system. I presume that Islam and Judaism have moderen observatories/telescopes as well, if only by dint of their, like Catholicism, being run within faith-based sovereign states. Unfortunately, they weren't represented on the show. That said, it struck me as odd that none (IIRC) of the scientists advocating one way or another were clearly noted as being Protestant. Blessedly, however, the show didn't have any of the fundamentalist Christian (take your pick of denominations) rabble that so often makes it into the news.

All the best.
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      10-06-2015, 02:25 AM   #84
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There are no atheists in foxholes..


It's amazing how quick people get faith when the poo comes in...
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      10-06-2015, 02:34 PM   #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
There are no atheists in foxholes..


It's amazing how quick people get faith when the poo comes in...


There's no limit to the fictions people will adopt when they are desperate. And, quite frankly, unless one is alone or just arrived in the hole, it's all but certain that at least some of the dead guys already there prayed to God, and to what end....

All the best.
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      10-06-2015, 03:08 PM   #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post


There's no limit to the fictions people will adopt when they are desperate. And, quite frankly, unless one is alone or just arrived in the hole, it's all but certain that at least some of the dead guys already there prayed to God, and to what end....

All the best.
Quite possibly, however I have never really had a conversation with an atheist, when people are lobbing missiles etc at you.
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      10-06-2015, 03:23 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
Quite possibly, however I have never really had a conversation with an atheist, when people are lobbing missiles etc at you.
I know that's so because nobody has ever lobbed missiles at me.

All the best.
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      10-15-2015, 02:05 PM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brigand View Post
There are no atheists in foxholes..


It's amazing how quick people get faith when the poo comes in...
I have a problem with your statement... Why would an Atheist start believing in God all of the sudden when he is confronted with a life threatening situation?
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