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      07-18-2017, 08:34 PM   #155
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While I'm agreeing with a bunch of the points the anti-EV folk have been raising, I did want to counter a few of them:

1. It ain't all about 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

I get this, I really do. But on the street, it's much more about 0-60 times and instant availability to predictable power and grip than it is about road-holding g-forces. Saying a model S isn't sporty because it handles like a boat and can't corner like a Lotus Elise isn't really fair. It's like comparing a C63 AMG to a Porche Boxter.

2. EV isn't fun.

Yes, I'd probably have more fun around the Nuremberg in a M240i Convertible, a Civic Type R or a Lotus Elise than in an X5M or a M5. But going from a standing start to pulling 1G instantly is fun. Getting from 0-100km/h in 3 seconds is fun. Being in the right gear all the time is fun.
There's a reason people like big V8's, and many of those reasons are the same as with EV's.

3. Charge times are too long.

Most people never use a supercharger. Most people commute less than an hour to work and back each day. If they do use their car in the day it's for a short time. For 95% of owners an EV is _far more convenient_ than gas, because you plug it in when you get home and never have to go out of your way and hang around at a service station pumping gas again.

4. Long trips are impossible, or a PITA.

First, many, many owners will have a second car for long trips. The EV for the daily commute and the gas guzzling SUV for the family camping trip.
For those who don't, spending 1/2 hour at a charge station rather than 10 minutes at a gas station isn't an issue since you plan for it, you expect it, and you haven't had to spend 10 minutes at a gas station every week for the rest of the year to support your daily commute.

Australia is a pretty challenging country, but I can still travel the 3,200km on the east coast (brisbane to melbourne) and surrounds with about the same access to supercharges as I have access to e85. Except that I can plug the car in to charge at the hotel or friends place where I sleep.

Yes, travelling large distances in an EV is more difficult than in a Gas car. You wouldn't want to be a courier with an EV (unless you have battery swap). But this isn't an issue for 95% of the population.

5. It won't survive without subsidies.

First a foremost, car dealerships and gas car manufacturers have been the beneficiaries of massive public subsidies for decades. If they had to pay that money back EV would survive just fine without subsidies - because they'd be the only ones left in business.
Second - Australia doesn't subsidize EV the way the USA does. We've got a thriving coal industry we need to support. You want subsidies, look no further than e85. Our sugar industry wouldn't survive without subsidies.

On the flip side, Tesla is doing fine in Australia. Also, it's great value for money if you like raw speed. Show me any other car that can go from 0-100km/h in sub 3 seconds for under $200,000 AUD.
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      07-18-2017, 08:44 PM   #156
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Why stop there? Use a Cruze or Sentra. I mean why even try to pick a comparable car?
I did. Not much difference to a 3. Similar acceleration, better range, similar luxury level, better looking inside and out actually.
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      07-18-2017, 08:47 PM   #157
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Why stop there? Use a Cruze or Sentra. I mean why even try to pick a comparable car?
I did. Not much difference to a 3. Similar acceleration, better range, similar luxury level, better looking inside and out actually.
Except they're 10+ inches longer, slow as shit and fwd. so sort of like comparing an M3 to a Civic Type R just because they both have four wheels.
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      07-18-2017, 08:58 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by xQx View Post
While I'm agreeing with a bunch of the points the anti-EV folk have been raising, I did want to counter a few of them:

1. It ain't all about 0-60 and 1/4 mile times.

I get this, I really do. But on the street, it's much more about 0-60 times and instant availability to predictable power and grip than it is about road-holding g-forces. Saying a model S isn't sporty because it handles like a boat and can't corner like a Lotus Elise isn't really fair. It's like comparing a C63 AMG to a Porche Boxter.

2. EV isn't fun.

Yes, I'd probably have more fun around the Nuremberg in a M240i Convertible, a Civic Type R or a Lotus Elise than in an X5M or a M5. But going from a standing start to pulling 1G instantly is fun. Getting from 0-100km/h in 3 seconds is fun. Being in the right gear all the time is fun.
There's a reason people like big V8's, and many of those reasons are the same as with EV's.

3. Charge times are too long.

Most people never use a supercharger. Most people commute less than an hour to work and back each day. If they do use their car in the day it's for a short time. For 95% of owners an EV is _far more convenient_ than gas, because you plug it in when you get home and never have to go out of your way and hang around at a service station pumping gas again.

4. Long trips are impossible, or a PITA.

First, many, many owners will have a second car for long trips. The EV for the daily commute and the gas guzzling SUV for the family camping trip.
For those who don't, spending 1/2 hour at a charge station rather than 10 minutes at a gas station isn't an issue since you plan for it, you expect it, and you haven't had to spend 10 minutes at a gas station every week for the rest of the year to support your daily commute.

Australia is a pretty challenging country, but I can still travel the 3,200km on the east coast (brisbane to melbourne) and surrounds with about the same access to supercharges as I have access to e85. Except that I can plug the car in to charge at the hotel or friends place where I sleep.

Yes, travelling large distances in an EV is more difficult than in a Gas car. You wouldn't want to be a courier with an EV (unless you have battery swap). But this isn't an issue for 95% of the population.

5. It won't survive without subsidies.

First a foremost, car dealerships and gas car manufacturers have been the beneficiaries of massive public subsidies for decades. If they had to pay that money back EV would survive just fine without subsidies - because they'd be the only ones left in business.
Second - Australia doesn't subsidize EV the way the USA does. We've got a thriving coal industry we need to support. You want subsidies, look no further than e85. Our sugar industry wouldn't survive without subsidies.

On the flip side, Tesla is doing fine in Australia. Also, it's great value for money if you like raw speed. Show me any other car that can go from 0-100km/h in sub 3 seconds for under $200,000 AUD.
1. Still a one trick poney, and the 3 doesnt have that trick with 0-60 slower than most sport sedans.
2. See 1
3. Big number 95% very doubtful too.
4.You agree I guess. It is one more unnecessary hassle
5. A tesla 3 is 60,000 Aussie. Forget the other teslas. Without the 3 outselling them a combined 5 to 1 the company is in ruins. Gas in Austrailia is close to triple the price in Australia so EV becomes more affordable. If Gas was 1/3 what it costs you now, would budget ev that costs more than its competitors look attractive?
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      07-18-2017, 09:11 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Why stop there? Use a Cruze or Sentra. I mean why even try to pick a comparable car?
Why compare a car at all? Who needs the tech? I found a horse for sale near me for $200. You crazy kids keep looking forward, but you really need to start looking backwards.
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      07-18-2017, 09:16 PM   #160
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Forget oil dependence.
Smog and pollution is a myth according to the Trump administration. EVs will be gone because we never have to worry about smog right?



How is the government picking favorites when they support the development of a technology that will reduce emissions and provide cleaner air for all citizens? Telsa is not the only company that sells cars that qualify for those tax credits/rebates. They just happened to be the only company that did it well...



Which company is going to do what's "right" for the environment if there aren't any regulations that force them too? We'd all be driving around with cars on leaded gas with no catalytic converters if there wasn't some form of regulation that required yet.

Do you think abs, airbags, traction control would be in every car if it wasn't required? Companies would have offered that on their own free will right?


What should happen to Trump? He is one of those people and he is leading a country to believe what he does.
When you rely on companies to do the right thing, without regulation, you end up with the Nissan Tsuru. Which is basically a 1992 Nissan Sentra (with the same safety equipment) produced in Mexico until last year. Spoiler alert: they don't do the right thing.

http://jalopnik.com/horrifying-crash...-me-1788423100
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      07-18-2017, 09:16 PM   #161
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Why compare a car at all? Who needs the tech? I found a horse for sale near me for $200. You crazy kids keep looking forward, but you really need to start looking backwards.
Who needs the tech, correct. I have bluetooth, voice command, satellite, ubs input, etc etc, I don't use any of it anyway. What use is more? Conversely, except for autodrive which screws up regularly and could be applied to ice cars if anyone cared, what tech does a tesla have that an accord doesn't?
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      07-18-2017, 09:24 PM   #162
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1. Still a one trick poney, and the 3 doesnt have that trick with 0-60 slower than most sport sedans.
2. See 1
3. Big number 95% very doubtful too.
4.You agree I guess. It is one more unnecessary hassle
5. A tesla 3 is 60,000 Aussie. Forget the other teslas. Without the 3 outselling them a combined 5 to 1 the company is in ruins. Gas in Austrailia is close to triple the price in Australia so EV becomes more affordable. If Gas was 1/3 what it costs you now, would budget ev that costs more than its competitors look attractive?
Yes, it's a one trick pony, but it's a pretty good bloody trick. It's the only trick you need in traffic. The USA is jam-packed with big V8's that handle like a bucket of nails, cost an absolute fortune to fill up and are comfortable if you don't mind sliding around on a lazy-boy inspired drivers seat any time you come close to a corner.
Further to that, one of the top selling cars you folk have - the lovely 4-cylinder mustang is a one-trick pony without that trick. Yet people lap it up.

In Australia the Telsa 3 is cheaper than the BMW 3 series, and with a 0-100 of less than 6 seconds, it's faster than most of the 3 series BMW's too. It doesn't handle like an M, but I'd prefer it to a 318i.

It's more convenient too, because I'd never have to fill it up. I just plug it in when I get home and I'm done. That's the point - it's more of a hassle if I want to go on a long journey, but far less of a hassle the other 360 days of the year.

Now, I haven't put my name down for a Tesla 3, because I agree - in the current form it's totally uninspiring. But Elon has said ludicrous mode is coming to the model 3, so I'm waiting for a sub $100,000 AUD EV with AWD and 3.5 second 0-100 times. You can't buy that performance today for twice the price.

If I look at the total cost of ownership of my N54 - the price of gas isn't a huge factor. Even if it was 1/3rd of the price, it still cost $2,000 to do the brakes on my car.

A Tesla needs brakes far less often unless you drive like a hoon since it's got regen. It never needs a service, and cost a fraction to fill. And even with 0-100 times of 5.9 seconds, the uninspiring Tesla Model 3 will still leave Australia's most popular Mustang behind at the lights.
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      07-18-2017, 10:19 PM   #163
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It's the same price as a 3 series or c class here. 0-60 in 5.8 is what my base model suv does. The 4 banger economy mustang is faster, 5.5, 0-60, braking, around corners, over 60, gets 30 mpg, and costs 10k less. If you hadn't noticed there are very few v8 cars left out here. Most cars are in the 30+ mpg range. Seats are also bolstered similar to the 3 etc. Guess you haven't been here in 30 years.

They dont sell 318s here. 328s are quicker, 5.4, 0-60, corners, braking, and the same price. I drive 6 plus hours a day 3-5 times a week. Makes zero sense to have. As for your bmw cost, that's a bad benchmark to use. My n54 335i costs $600 for rotors and pads. I have used my 335i which is e85 only for work. Finding e85 is easier and way faster than a charge station, yet its still a major hassle. And for looks, the three is about as inspiring as a Pontiac aztek. Enjoy your car.
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      07-18-2017, 11:41 PM   #164
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The USPS might not make money, but I love those people. I'd take Priority Mail any day over UPS or FedEx. Both are way more expensive alternatives, and UPS ground moves as slowly as covered wagons at times it seems. VIVA USPS!
Well, besides being chronically under-funded, all of their revenue goes into a big slush fund that they can't use, so it's hardly their fault, but yeah, cheaper! Also, they have some interesting tech that relatively few people know about.
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      07-19-2017, 12:37 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Except they're 10+ inches longer, slow as shit and fwd. so sort of like comparing an M3 to a Civic Type R just because they both have four wheels.
Agreed. Ring times .

Civic type R
7:43.8

Vs

7:52
standard M4 Coupe equipped with DCT and ceramic brakes
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      07-19-2017, 12:40 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Except they're 10+ inches longer, slow as shit and fwd. so sort of like comparing an M3 to a Civic Type R just because they both have four wheels.
Agreed. Ring times .

Civic type R
7:43.8

Vs

The standard M4 Coupe equipped with DCT and ceramic brakes lapped the famous Nurburgring in just 7:52 minutes, slightly behind the E46 M3 CSL (7:50)
Dammit, I realized the error of my ways and nearly changed it to a Civic Si.

But still, with the Model 3, we're talking about a rwd hatch. The only comparable car is a 428i GC or adding awd, an A5 Sportback. It's not a Camry or Accord competitor in any sane way.
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      07-19-2017, 07:08 AM   #167
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Tesla roadster: Base price $119,000
Model S: Base price: $69,500
Model 3: Base price: $35,000

The idea that it's not going to catch on because they're too expensive without incentives is not seeing the larger picture.
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
The price you quoted for the model S is with the $7,500 tax incentive. The Model 3 $35K price was supposed to be before the tax incentive, but I recently heard that the Model 3 price is now $42,500. I've not yet verfied that.
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Camry, Accord, $20,000.
I think you guys are missing the forest for the trees. There's a pretty clear price trend here.
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      07-19-2017, 05:43 PM   #168
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Who needs the tech, correct. I have bluetooth, voice command, satellite, ubs input, etc etc, I don't use any of it anyway. What use is more? Conversely, except for autodrive which screws up regularly and could be applied to ice cars if anyone cared, what tech does a tesla have that an accord doesn't?
250+ mile range on battery power creating zero emissions from the vehicle during operation.
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      07-19-2017, 06:55 PM   #169
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250+ mile range on battery power creating zero emissions from the vehicle during operation.
And....

Remember I and 2/3 the population could care less about emmissions. I'd say less than 5% actually factor in emmissions when buying a car. And don't give me smog or asthma as an excuse. Current ice don't impact those. Range is woefully low. Half the range of an ice and long refueling are not breakthroughs. Double it and we'll talk. As for environmental impact, they are as bad or worse than ICE, just in different ways. Those aren't technological breakthroughs or tech in the car. So not buying what you're selling.
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      07-19-2017, 07:02 PM   #170
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250+ mile range on battery power creating zero emissions from the vehicle during operation.
That, and instant full power whenever you press the pedal without ever being in the wrong gear.
A host of technology in the dash and on the key fob that rivals that of an S-class Mercedes.
Reducing the amount of times you have to stop at a gas station from once a week to a couple of times a year.
Lower servicing costs, lower wear costs, over-the-air updates to your car.
The best crash ratings of any car, ever.

Sure, it's a car that won't suit everyone, but no car is.
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      07-19-2017, 07:54 PM   #171
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Tech in the fob and dash is actually cheap to do. Car makers use it as a lure to get people up to upgrade or buy option packages. Nothing ground breaking about it.charge time vs gas time depends on your use. Ev wins for short commutes and around town. Ice wins for longer hauls so that's even too. Over the air updates again could be done if needed but they aren't on ice. Maintainence would be good if tesla weren't rated one of the most unreliable cars out there. And if crash ratings made a buying decision different, everyone would be in volvos. I don't see them selling like hotcakes.
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      07-19-2017, 10:22 PM   #172
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I'm actually a weirdo that likes manuals, so EVs don't actually interest me much, but bringing up traits that mean nothing to the people buying them is just as pointless as talking about the new Aston Martin not having a cassette player.
May I chime in? There is no one on this Forum that loves manuals more than me and I HATE automatics. But drive an EV. It's a 1 speed transmission, so it never shifts and it is always in the "right gear" because of the torque characteristics of the electric motor. I'm not sure if you've driven an electric or not, but next time you do, look at it as a 1-speed manual. I have and it has opened my eyes.
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      07-19-2017, 10:35 PM   #173
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
I'm actually a weirdo that likes manuals, so EVs don't actually interest me much, but bringing up traits that mean nothing to the people buying them is just as pointless as talking about the new Aston Martin not having a cassette player.
May I chime in? There is no one on this Forum that loves manuals more than me and I HATE automatics. But drive an EV. It's a 1 speed transmission, so it never shifts and it is always in the "right gear" because of the torque characteristics of the electric motor. I'm not sure if you've driven an electric or not, but next time you do, look at it as a 1-speed manual. I have and it has opened my eyes.
Yep, driven both the i3 and Model S. Great to drive, but for me, I just want a manual. I'd take an EV over any automatic though.

Amusingly I ride my single speed mountain bike and road bikes more than the ones with gears.
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      07-20-2017, 01:55 AM   #174
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And....

Remember I and 2/3 the population could care less about emmissions. I'd say less than 5% actually factor in emmissions when buying a car. And don't give me smog or asthma as an excuse. Current ice don't impact those. Range is woefully low. Half the range of an ice and long refueling are not breakthroughs. Double it and we'll talk. As for environmental impact, they are as bad or worse than ICE, just in different ways. Those aren't technological breakthroughs or tech in the car. So not buying what you're selling.
You're seriously going to tell me that the internal combustion engine doesn't have an impact on smog?
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      07-20-2017, 06:59 AM   #175
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You're seriously going to tell me that the internal combustion engine doesn't have an impact on smog?
No. I seriously didn't. I said smog isn't an issue anymore in the US since ice emmissions standards were enacted but more importantly c02 emmissions have nothing to do with smog. I said don't give me the smog excuse because there isn't any. KidsThat's what I said. Its not like California cities are in a nitrogen oxide cloud anymore. That was 30 Yrs ago. Funny how its only California cities too. It's based on the location of the cities in bowls surrounded by mountains.rest of the country never really had it to begin with.

Last edited by Fundguy1; 07-20-2017 at 07:21 AM..
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      07-20-2017, 09:11 AM   #176
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Originally Posted by Fundguy1 View Post
Who needs the tech, correct. I have bluetooth, voice command, satellite, ubs input, etc etc, I don't use any of it anyway. What use is more? Conversely, except for autodrive which screws up regularly and could be applied to ice cars if anyone cared, what tech does a tesla have that an accord doesn't?
autopilot, Summon, ota updates, Smartphone connect....
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