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      03-09-2015, 06:14 PM   #1
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5 Embarrassing Predictions about Obamacare

1) Rep. Paul Broun (R-GA): ‘It’s going to destroy our economy…It’s going to push us into a total economic collapse’ (October 8, 2013)

No economic collapse here.

2) Speaker John Boehner (R-OH): Obamacare ‘will bankrupt our nation, and it will ruin our economy.’ (January 6, 2011)

Economy doesn't look ruined to me. In fact signs are pointing to the fact that the economy is doing pretty well right now.

3) Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK): ‘There will be no insurance industry left in three years.’ (October 12, 2010)

Odd, there still seems to be an insurance industry.

4) Rush Limbaugh said Obamacare would cost the economy ‘2.5 million jobs minimum’ and would be a ‘literal tragedy’ (February 6, 2014)

Most of the reports I have read lately have shown an uptick in jobs.

5) Glenn Beck: ‘This is the end of prosperity in America forever, if this passes. This is the end of America as you know it.’ (November 19, 2009)

The good ol' USA seems to stil be here.

The GOP leadership and pundits have been trying to paint the Affordable Care Act in a poor light ever since it's inception. Theses inaccuracies are just a bit of how incorrect GOP leaders and pundits have been over the implementation of the Affordable Care Act.

How many more lies will the GOP followers allow their leadership to tell them before they realize they are bald faced lying to them.

http://thinkprogress.org/health/2015...y-predictions/
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      03-10-2015, 09:02 AM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal235 View Post
1) Rep. Paul Broun (R-GA): ‘It’s going to destroy our economy…It’s going to push us into a total economic collapse’ (October 8, 2013)

No economic collapse here.
Much too soon to tell either way. But FYI, the CBO and Treasury have projected that:
- our national deficit will increase by a magnitude of 6 over the next decade
-and our national Debt has increased from $9.5 Billion to $18 Billion since Obama took office.

That doesn't sound healthy to me, but maybe I'm too pragmatic.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/45653


http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/deb...1&endYear=2015

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal235 View Post
2) Speaker John Boehner (R-OH): Obamacare ‘will bankrupt our nation, and it will ruin our economy.’ (January 6, 2011)

Economy doesn't look ruined to me. In fact signs are pointing to the fact that the economy is doing pretty well right now.
Please refer to my previous post.


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Originally Posted by SoCal235 View Post
3) Sen. Tom Coburn (R-OK): ‘There will be no insurance industry left in three years.’ (October 12, 2010)

Odd, there still seems to be an insurance industry.
I agree, that may be somewhat of an exaggeration, though it may not. But you also fail to take into account that the implementation of the Affordable Care Act has been delayed numerous times (some would say illegally by the executive branch, since that branch has no right to interpret legislation).

Numerous mandates, including the employer mandate, have not been fully implemented due to these delays, so it is far too soon to tell what the long-term implications are for the insurance industry:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...icle-1.1710455

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/v...amacare-delay/

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...ys-alec-torres

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal235 View Post
4) Rush Limbaugh said Obamacare would cost the economy ‘2.5 million jobs minimum’ and would be a ‘literal tragedy’ (February 6, 2014)

Most of the reports I have read lately have shown an uptick in jobs.
This is easily the most underwhelming economic recovery we have encountered following a market recession. Again 2.5 Million lost jobs may very well be a hyperbole, but to suggest our economy is going strong is to ignore the reality on the ground. A diverse group of media sources on this one, in case you think I am cherry-picking information:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freee...ericas-economy

http://www.cfr.org/united-states/qua...context/p25774

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...previous-ones/

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoCal235 View Post
5) Glenn Beck: ‘This is the end of prosperity in America forever, if this passes. This is the end of America as you know it.’ (November 19, 2009)

The good ol' USA seems to stil be here.
A very subjective and interpretative claim to begin with, so there is no real way to prove or disprove it. He's a pundit with a target audience in mind. What else do you expect from him?

Overall, I think you are getting to focused on peoples' opinions rather than focusing on the context on which those opinions are derived from.

The Afordable Care Act is still a great unknown because it hasn't been fully implemented yet.

The economic well-being of our government's balance sheet and our economy in general is very much under scrutiny by many economic experts and academics.

If you think that there is no discussion to be had in either area, you really don't have a good view of what is going on in the grand scheme of things.
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      03-10-2015, 09:15 AM   #3
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Another embarrassing prediction was that if you liked your healthcare plan, you could keep it.

Another embarrassing prediction was that it would make health care more affordable.

Then of course there's Jonathan Gruber who is just plain embarrassing himself, admitting they had to lie to America to get this thing passed.

Lots of embarrassment to go around.
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      03-10-2015, 09:32 AM   #4
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Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Another embarrassing prediction was that if you liked your healthcare plan, you could keep it.

Another embarrassing prediction was that it would make health care more affordable.

Then of course there's Jonathan Gruber who is just plain embarrassing himself, admitting they had to lie to America to get this thing passed.

Lots of embarrassment to go around.
^ Valid points.

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      04-19-2015, 02:54 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
Another embarrassing prediction was that if you liked your healthcare plan, you could keep it.

Another embarrassing prediction was that it would make health care more affordable.

Then of course there's Jonathan Gruber who is just plain embarrassing himself, admitting they had to lie to America to get this thing passed.

Lots of embarrassment to go around.
That's gonna sting.
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      04-19-2015, 05:04 PM   #6
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No tort reform = no dice. Sorry, but the reason that healthcare is so expensive is that ambulance-chasing lawyers have their long fingers in everyone's pockets. And until we keep them from advertising on TV and from operating on contingency it will stay that way.
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      04-20-2015, 09:20 AM   #7
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^ But Larry Parker got me $2.1 Million!!!

And I might have had a bladder mesh installed

Oh, and there's that time in the furnace yard that gave me mesothelioma

And that hip implant, it's starting to hurt
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      04-20-2015, 02:15 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Much too soon to tell either way. But FYI, the CBO and Treasury have projected that:
- our national deficit will increase by a magnitude of 6 over the next decade
-and our national Debt has increased from $9.5 Billion to $18 Billion since Obama took office.

That doesn't sound healthy to me, but maybe I'm too pragmatic.

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/45653


http://www.treasurydirect.gov/NP/deb...1&endYear=2015
Except that the deficit is projected (and did) go down from previous years, partly [mainly] due to the affordable care act.
D'oh
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-down-deficit/

So what does this "point" have to do with the ACA/Obama considering the budget is created in the house and not by the executive branch? Nothing.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Please refer to my previous post.
Oh, I did and I'm starting to see a trend here.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
I agree, that may be somewhat of an exaggeration, though it may not. But you also fail to take into account that the implementation of the Affordable Care Act has been delayed numerous times (some would say illegally by the executive branch, since that branch has no right to interpret legislation).

Numerous mandates, including the employer mandate, have not been fully implemented due to these delays, so it is far too soon to tell what the long-term implications are for the insurance industry:

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/poli...icle-1.1710455

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/v...amacare-delay/

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner...ys-alec-torres
Err, healthcare companies are flourishing under the ACA.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/us...lies.html?_r=0


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
This is easily the most underwhelming economic recovery we have encountered following a market recession. Again 2.5 Million lost jobs may very well be a hyperbole, but to suggest our economy is going strong is to ignore the reality on the ground. A diverse group of media sources on this one, in case you think I am cherry-picking information:

http://www.economist.com/blogs/freee...ericas-economy

http://www.cfr.org/united-states/qua...context/p25774

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank...previous-ones/
Underwhelming compared to who? The US recovered faster than every other economy besides Germany. I think this is due in part to our stupid austerity measure which are a failure in every other country. Hurrah for Conservatives trying to intentionally sabotage economic recovery.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_4935182.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/...dvanced-world/


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
A very subjective and interpretative claim to begin with, so there is no real way to prove or disprove it. He's a pundit with a target audience in mind. What else do you expect from him?

Overall, I think you are getting to focused on peoples' opinions rather than focusing on the context on which those opinions are derived from.

The Afordable Care Act is still a great unknown because it hasn't been fully implemented yet.

The economic well-being of our government's balance sheet and our economy in general is very much under scrutiny by many economic experts and academics.

If you think that there is no discussion to be had in either area, you really don't have a good view of what is going on in the grand scheme of things.
So far, most of the arguments point in favor of the ACA. Just saying.
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      04-20-2015, 02:18 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PINeely View Post
No tort reform = no dice. Sorry, but the reason that healthcare is so expensive is that ambulance-chasing lawyers have their long fingers in everyone's pockets. And until we keep them from advertising on TV and from operating on contingency it will stay that way.
Tort reform = little no savings. It's a red herring used to limit your right to restitution and put the tax payer on the hook instead of the insurance companies.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hilt...19-column.html
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      04-20-2015, 06:26 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Tort reform = little no savings. It's a red herring used to limit your right to restitution and put the tax payer on the hook instead of the insurance companies.

http://www.latimes.com/business/hilt...19-column.html
This article is about reforming defensive medicine, not tort reform as a whole. From the article: "Tort reform" would only eliminate orders made purely because of fear of litigation -- that is, 100% defensively -- and that's a tiny percentage of the total."

Not true. There are costs associated with defensive procedures, ie ordering an MRI when someone doesn't necessarily need one. And yes, those cases make up a tiny percent of tort reform savings. But the biggest reason that everything in healthcare is so expensive is because people love to turn around and sue the people who have just saved their lives. And yes there is a place for such suits, such as the case where the guy had a pair of hemostats left in him after they buttoned him up. But the vast majority are frivolous contingency suits. Frivolous contingency suits are more or less uncommon, but everyone still has to be prepared for them.

This is why malpractice insurance exists. This is why hospitals keep lawyers on staff, because they have to be ready for such suits. Do you know how much it costs for hospitals, even the rural ones around where I live, to keep 2-4 lawyers on retainer? All of this inflates overhead for both the practitioners and the hospitals. And THAT is why a Tylenol in a hospital costs fifteen dollars. It's not a red herring. Everything costs more because lawyers are involved at every level, and lawyers are expensive. It's just a fact.
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      04-20-2015, 06:36 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Except that the deficit is projected (and did) go down from previous years, partly [mainly] due to the affordable care act.
D'oh
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-me...-down-deficit/
The deficit has gone down in the last few years, but is projected to go drastically increase (by a factor of at least 6 over the next decade alone). Please carefully-reread the Treasury and CBO (Congressional Budget Office) websites that I linked previously. When those groups make budget deficit projections like that, they are anticipating rising costs/expenditures from government programs, like ACA, Social Security, MedicAid, ect.

Also, the debt has increased by from $9.5 Trillion to $18 Trillion under Obama so far (by comparison the debt under Bush went from $5.7 Trillion to $9.5 Trillion). If you don't understand the difference between debt and deficit you probably should go do some reading....you can have a shrinking deficit but still be adding to your debt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
So what does this "point" have to do with the ACA/Obama considering the budget is created in the house and not by the executive branch? Nothing.
The legislative branch approves of the funding that the executive branch requires for conducting governance. That's how our system works. ACA happened because Congress approved it and and agreed to fund it...which again adds to any pre-existing debt.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Err, healthcare companies are flourishing under the ACA.
http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/18/us...lies.html?_r=0
One article? By one of the most liberal newspapers out there? That's the best you can do?

Again, if and when ACA is fully implemented, maybe you can start to gather evidence to make an argument one way or the other...but since numerous parts of ACA have not yet been implemented (like the employer mandate), there really is no way to determine whether this legislation is good for healthcare as a whole.


Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Underwhelming compared to who? The US recovered faster than every other economy besides Germany.
Compared to previous recoveries, this has been one of the slowest we have ever experienced, and not just here in the US, but globally...have you been paying attention to emerging markets like Greece? Have your seen how the Euro has been doing?

Again, please feel free to browse through my previously linked-websites. They provide answers to many of your concerns.
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      04-21-2015, 12:38 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PINeely View Post
This article is about reforming defensive medicine, not tort reform as a whole. From the article: "Tort reform" would only eliminate orders made purely because of fear of litigation -- that is, 100% defensively -- and that's a tiny percentage of the total."

Not true. There are costs associated with defensive procedures, ie ordering an MRI when someone doesn't necessarily need one. And yes, those cases make up a tiny percent of tort reform savings. But the biggest reason that everything in healthcare is so expensive is because people love to turn around and sue the people who have just saved their lives. And yes there is a place for such suits, such as the case where the guy had a pair of hemostats left in him after they buttoned him up. But the vast majority are frivolous contingency suits. Frivolous contingency suits are more or less uncommon, but everyone still has to be prepared for them.

This is why malpractice insurance exists. This is why hospitals keep lawyers on staff, because they have to be ready for such suits. Do you know how much it costs for hospitals, even the rural ones around where I live, to keep 2-4 lawyers on retainer? All of this inflates overhead for both the practitioners and the hospitals. And THAT is why a Tylenol in a hospital costs fifteen dollars. It's not a red herring. Everything costs more because lawyers are involved at every level, and lawyers are expensive. It's just a fact.
Please, feel free to source any study that shows reasonable savings. I've found nothing but failures, including TXs.
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      04-21-2015, 02:33 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Please, feel free to source any study that shows reasonable savings. I've found nothing but failures, including TXs.
This is basic economics. When you have to keep lawyers on staff at a hospital it drives up the cost of everything, because you have to pay them. They keep said lawyers on staff because of the possibility of a frivolous suit, which is the same reason that physicians pay for malpractice insurance thus driving up their overhead. It's not a hard concept to understand.
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      04-21-2015, 02:37 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PINeely View Post
This is basic economics. When you have to keep lawyers on staff at a hospital it drives up the cost of everything, because you have to pay them. They keep said lawyers on staff because of the possibility of a frivolous suit, which is the same reason that physicians pay for malpractice insurance thus driving up their overhead. It's not a hard concept to understand.
No it not, if it were it could easily be proven (which again, you have yet to do)
Want to also know what is "simple economics?" Obamacare, minimum wage increases and regulation killing jobs and sending the US economy into the shitter...oh wait.
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      04-21-2015, 02:49 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
No it not, if it were it could easily be proven (which again, you have yet to do)
Want to also know what is "simple economics?" Obamacare, minimum wage increases and regulation killing jobs and sending the US economy into the shitter...oh wait.
Prove what? That hospitals hire lawyers?
https://www.google.com/search?q=hosp...+lawyer+salary

Or that frivolous suits exist?
https://www.washingtonpolicy.org/pub...ore-affordable
"The great majority of injured patients do not sue their doctor, and only one in six of those who do sue receives compensation. In 40% of medical malpractice cases there is no evidence of medical error or even that an injury has occurred."

Or that medical malpractice insurance costs are rising?
http://www.modernhealthcare.com/arti...INFO/310119992
https://www.law.uh.edu/healthlaw/per...lpractice.html
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      04-21-2015, 03:04 PM   #16
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PROVE THERE ARE REASONABLE SAVINGS FROM TORT REFORM. There are 0 worthwhile savings, Texas is a great example of this.
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      04-21-2015, 03:11 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
PROVE THERE ARE REASONABLE SAVINGS FROM TORT REFORM. There are 0 worthwhile savings, Texas is a great example of this.
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news.../03/303718.htm

http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook...as-4708265.php

Tort reform has been working in Texas. Facts and you really don't seem to go together.

BTW a minimum wage increase increases the price floor for labor costs, and those costs will be passed on to the consumer.
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      04-21-2015, 03:28 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Acertx View Post
http://www.insurancejournal.com/news.../03/303718.htm

http://www.chron.com/opinion/outlook...as-4708265.php

Tort reform has been working in Texas. Facts and you really don't seem to go together.

BTW a minimum wage increase increases the price floor for labor costs, and those costs will be passed on to the consumer.
Neither one of those links you provided prove anything that you are stating, they say NOTHING about the supposed savings of Tort Reform.
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      04-21-2015, 03:39 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by TheAxiom View Post
Neither one of those links you provided prove anything that you are stating, they say NOTHING about the supposed savings of Tort Reform.
Quote:
The Texas medical liability reforms that were enacted in 2003 stopped the exodus of doctors who were leaving the state or retiring because of high medical liability insurance costs. The result has been improved access to high-quality health care throughout the state, and similar caps have now been enacted in many other states.
That's from the Houston Chronicle link.

Quote:
The Austin American Statesman reported that Department of Insurance data shows medical malpractice claims, including lawsuits, resolved in a year fell by nearly two-thirds between 2003 and 2011 to 450. The average payout declined 22 percent to about $199,000.
That's from the Insurance Journal link.
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      04-21-2015, 03:55 PM   #20
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That's from the Houston Chronicle link.



That's from the Insurance Journal link.
Those are savings the insurance company reported, but what are the savings overall? How much money was saved?

How many medical care provides have returned to the state? You don't find it odd there are 0 number supporting these claims? Maybe because those claims are full of shit?

Here, let me help you
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/201...th-care-costs/
Quote:
Now, a group of researchers studying Texas Medicare spending have found no decrease in doctors’ fees for senior citizens between 2002 and 2009. Medicare payments to doctors rose 1 to 2 percent faster than the rest of the country, Northwestern professor Bernard Black, a researcher on the study, said.


In urban and high population counties, the study’s authors expected to see lower health care costs stemming from a reduction in medical tests doctors previously used to protect themselves from lawsuits. However, the researchers found no decrease in costs and a slight increase in medical tests performed. “This is not a result we expected,” said Bernard Black, a co-author and a professor at Northwestern University’s Law School and Kellogg School of Management.
http://www.pbs.org/newshour/updates/...ractice_09-25/

Quote:
But, according to Morrisey, those lower costs don’t necessarily get passed on to consumers. He found no difference in consumers’ employer-sponsored health insurance premiums between states with damage caps and those without.

“Try as we might we couldn’t find any effects,” he says.
http://westvirginia.legalexaminer.co...atient-safety/

Quote:
n October 2011, non-profit advocacy group Public Citizen released a report entitled “A Failed Experiment,” noting that health care in Texas has worsened in key respects since liability caps were put into effect in 2003.

Malpractice lawsuits have dropped dramatically since the caps were imposed, but patients have failed to see benefits. Medicare spending and private insurance premiums have both risen faster than the national average, while the percentage of Texans who lack health insurance has gone up. The per capita number of primary care physicians has remained flat, while the prevalence of those in non-metropolitan areas has declined.

Another study published in the Journal of Empirical Legal Studies in June 2012 noted similar trends, finding no evidence that tort reforms bent cost curves downward.
(BTW, so much for more doctors in the state)

http://healthcare.dmagazine.com/2012...owering-costs/
[quote]

http://westvirginia.legalexaminer.co...atient-safety/
Quote:
Four researchers—including a University of Texas law professor—concluded that there was no evidence that Texas physicians were leaving the state prior to the 2003 law, or that there was a significant increase in physicians moving to Texas because of better liability climate.

The 2003 legislation, which resulted a 70 percent decrease in medical malpractice claims, limited non-economic damages to $250,000 for a healthcare provider and $500,000 for healthcare facilities. Malpractice claim payouts dropped by more than 75 percent. Insurance premiums fell by about one half.
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      04-21-2015, 04:03 PM   #21
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The 2003 legislation, which resulted a 70 percent decrease in medical malpractice claims, limited non-economic damages to $250,000 for a healthcare provider and $500,000 for healthcare facilities. Malpractice claim payouts dropped by more than 75 percent. Insurance premiums fell by about one half.
I'm not even going to waste my time refuting anything else you said, since you just proved my point by admitting that premiums fell by 50%.
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      04-21-2015, 06:34 PM   #22
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I'm not even going to waste my time refuting anything else you said, since you just proved my point by admitting that premiums fell by 50%.
You know they aren't talking about consumer health insurance premiums, right?

Last edited by Taskmaster; 04-21-2015 at 06:43 PM..
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