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      12-27-2019, 06:24 AM   #2685
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
No - 4 years until auto manufacturers with good EV products can make them at scale to meet demand. The problem with EV sales globally isn't demand, it's supply: either niche product for few customers (Nissan Leaf), or mainstream product but small supply (Teslas, Rivian).

Once auto manufacturers with good EV products DO make them at scale, costs will come down and market share will sky rocket just like for any other product (smart phones, flat screen TVs, fitness watches, houses, etc)

As for middle America, how many people predicted Tesla in coastal America 9 years ago? Zero. Well, EV trucks will destroy ICE trucks in every way and in 10 years new trucks will be majority EV:



There's no way Joe Rogan isn't buying a Rivian, and BOOM!, middle America is electric.


No, auto executives think EVs are taking over the World:
Volkswagen AG will ramp up spending on electric vehicles, automated driving and other new technology by 36% as the world’s largest automaker challenges rivals to keep pace with an aggressive shift into the post-combustion era.“We will step up the pace again in the coming years with our investments,” said Diess. “Hybridization, electrification and digitalization of our fleet are becoming an increasingly important area of focus.”

Investment surges 36% to 12 billion euros a year in new plan
  • Total expenditures over next five years total roughly 145 billion euros
  • Share of spending on next-generation technology climbs to 40% from 30%
  • 20 million electrics to be based on mass-market MEB platform, with 6 million on technology developed by Porsche and Audi
  • Electrics to be made at plants in Mlada Boleslav, Czech Republic; Chattanooga, Tennessee; and Foshan, China
  • ID.Next electric SUV to start production in 2022 at factory in Emden, Germany
  • Decision on a Turkey plant to be made by the end of the year
Californians just read facts because they think other people already know all this stuff until they leave/travel.
Electric vehicle startup Rivian said on Monday it closed a $1.3 billion investment round led by fund manager T. Rowe Price, but also including existing investors online retailer Amazon and No. 2 U.S. automaker Ford.

The investment round, which also included BlackRock, is the fourth this year for Rivian and positions the Plymouth, Michigan-based company...Prior to Monday’s announcement, Rivian had raised $2.2 billion from investors, according to investor website PitchBook, and was valued at an estimated $5 billion to $7 billion.
I don' t think it's a supply issue as much as a profit issue. How much in government subsidies does Tesla get? Car makers are in the business of building a product there is demand for and at a profit. Here in Ontario EV sales were about 3-4 % when the government further subusidised the builders with a rebate of $14,000. When that rebate was eliminated EV sales dropped to 2% or less. Nothing to do with supply.

People are all about saving the planet but don't want to pay for it. We have a carbon tax here, when polled folks say they want to reduce emissions but also are feeling chocked by taxes and won't tolerate the amount of tax it will take to make any significant difference. I think there is also the issue of the carbon footprint of manufacture and disposal of EV's, I don't think they are as green as Greta et al would have us believe.
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      12-27-2019, 06:32 AM   #2686
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
I think there is also the issue of the carbon footprint of manufacture and disposal of EV's, I don't think they are as green as Greta et al would have us believe.
And let's not forget the mining and use of rare earth metals and the consequences of that.
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      12-27-2019, 06:51 AM   #2687
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And let's not forget the mining and use of rare earth metals and the consequences of that.
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      12-27-2019, 10:47 AM   #2688
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Yes the inconvenient truth about electric cars, lithium extraction that involves child labor in Africa:


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      12-27-2019, 10:48 AM   #2689
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
It's one thing to have every wanna be tree hugger in Cali with their Soy Lattes rocking a Tesla... I just don't see it.
Here's why you don't see it: You're confusing waging anti-American culture war with business.

Take another example: global warming - We all know the arguments for/against, pussies vs the tough guys, blah blah blah. What's the right answer?

For those who knew where to look, they saw the answer back in the 90s by the one authority you can trust on this topic: reinsurers. See, they don't give a shit about name-calling or culture wars or hating other Americans; as a business, they just care about making money. So back in the 90s reinsurers started pricing in global warming to their premiums - because that's business. and they weren't wrong cause they just look at the claims math, and they're doing pretty great. (see below)

In your "very populated area" do you see USB-C? Do see iPhones? Do you see Netflix, Hulu, Facebook, Instagram, or Gmail? Why no culture wars there? Anyone bitching about soy-drinking Californians making iPhones?

Do you see Amazon? Do you think any Amazon customers are aware of [COLOR="Blue"]Amazon's soy-drinking politics?[/COLOR]
"Human-induced climate change is real, serious, and action is needed".
It one click away on their homepage!

It's all just business: Exponential growth of technology adoption.

Humans cannot intuitively understand exponential growth; so the smart business dude looks to the inputs that would trigger exponential growth ... like $146B in EV auto investments by every major manufacturer.


BTW, reinsurers are doing great, and they don't even like soy lattes!
Outlook for 2019
The industry is expected to benefit from [blah blah blah] Additionally, climate change issues present an opportunity for the reinsurance industry as the frequency of weather-related catastrophes increases and presents more opportunities to tap into demand growth from traditional insurers related to risk adaptation strategies associated with climate change. Since ceding insurers typically obtain reinsurance for high-risk policies, reinsurance operators generally underwrite high-risk classes of insurance.


I'm telling you, invest in lithium. Electric is done deal and that's not an opinion, just like reinsurers know "climate change" isn't an opinion.
I don't disagree Gruss. At the end of the day it's ALWAYS about the cashola. I'm not saying that people won't EVENTUALLY adopt EVs but it's the speed of adoption that I'm contesting. In 15 years every major auto manufacturer will still make ICE cars (trucks etc etc...)along side their respective EV offerings. I'm just not buying the hype. If this really was a "revolution" then I would be seeing a shit ton of EVs all over the NY metro area and it's just not happening. While shopping for my '20 M4 (had to get one more F82 before they fuck it up) I asked a few CAs if clients were asking for EVs, Hybrids etc etc... the response was a resounding NO. This tells me that in this AREA there really isn't a huge customer base for electric cars AT THIS TIME.

I'll look into lithium

On another note. What is your next car gonna be? Beaver Teeth Vert?
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      12-27-2019, 04:17 PM   #2690
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Four (4) years where the mainstream auto manufacturers only produce EV? I'm not seeing it.
No - 4 years until auto manufacturers with good EV products can make them at scale to meet demand. The problem with EV sales globally isn't demand, it's supply: either niche product for few customers, or mainstream product but small supply.

Once auto manufacturers with good EV products DO make them at scale, costs will come down and market share will sky rocket just like for any other product (smart phones, flat screen TVs, fitness watches, houses, etc)

As for middle America, how many people predicted Tesla in coastal America 9 years ago? Zero. Well, EV trucks will destroy ICE trucks in every way and in 10 years new trucks will be majority EV:



There's no way Joe Rogan isn't buying a Rivian, and BOOM!, middle America is electric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
People from California think that EVs are taking over the world until they leave/travel. It's not happening anytime soon.
No, [COLOR="Blue"]auto executives think EVs are taking over the World[/COLOR]:
Volkswagen AG will ramp up spending on electric vehicles, automated driving and other new technology by 36% as the world's largest automaker challenges rivals to keep pace with an aggressive shift into the post-combustion era."We will step up the pace again in the coming years with our investments," said Diess. "Hybridization, electrification and digitalization of our fleet are becoming an increasingly important area of focus."
  • Total expenditures over next five years total roughly 145 billion euros
  • Share of spending on next-generation technology climbs to 40% from 30%
  • 20 million electrics to be based on mass-market MEB platform, with 6 million on technology developed by Porsche and Audi
  • Electrics to be made at plants in Mlada Boleslav, Czech Republic; Chattanooga, Tennessee; and Foshan, China
  • ID.Next electric SUV to start production in 2022 at factory in Emden, Germany
  • Decision on a Turkey plant to be made by the end of the year
Californians just read facts because they think other people already all this stuff until they leave/travel.
We will agree to disagree. I live in a densely populated part of NY.

I saw 2 Tesla's on the road today among the thousands upon thousands of other vehicles.

The Germans are taking a big gamble
NY actually has useful public mass transport.
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      12-27-2019, 04:23 PM   #2691
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
No - 4 years until auto manufacturers with good EV products can make them at scale to meet demand. The problem with EV sales globally isn't demand, it's supply: either niche product for few customers (Nissan Leaf), or mainstream product but small supply (Teslas, Rivian).

Once auto manufacturers with good EV products DO make them at scale, costs will come down and market share will sky rocket just like for any other product (smart phones, flat screen TVs, fitness watches, houses, etc)

As for middle America, how many people predicted Tesla in coastal America 9 years ago? Zero. Well, EV trucks will destroy ICE trucks in every way and in 10 years new trucks will be majority EV:



There's no way Joe Rogan isn't buying a Rivian, and BOOM!, middle America is electric.


No, [COLOR="Blue"]auto executives think EVs are taking over the World[/COLOR]:
Volkswagen AG will ramp up spending on electric vehicles, automated driving and other new technology by 36% as the world’s largest automaker challenges rivals to keep pace with an aggressive shift into the post-combustion era.“We will step up the pace again in the coming years with our investments,” said Diess. “Hybridization, electrification and digitalization of our fleet are becoming an increasingly important area of focus.”

Investment surges 36% to 12 billion euros a year in new plan
  • Total expenditures over next five years total roughly 145 billion euros
  • Share of spending on next-generation technology climbs to 40% from 30%
  • 20 million electrics to be based on mass-market MEB platform, with 6 million on technology developed by Porsche and Audi
  • Electrics to be made at plants in Mlada Boleslav, Czech Republic; Chattanooga, Tennessee; and Foshan, China
  • ID.Next electric SUV to start production in 2022 at factory in Emden, Germany
  • Decision on a Turkey plant to be made by the end of the year
Californians just [COLOR="Blue"]read facts[/COLOR] because they think other people already know all this stuff until they leave/travel.
Electric vehicle startup Rivian said on Monday it closed a $1.3 billion investment round led by fund manager T. Rowe Price, but also including existing investors online retailer Amazon and No. 2 U.S. automaker Ford.

The investment round, which also included BlackRock, is the fourth this year for Rivian and positions the Plymouth, Michigan-based company...Prior to Monday’s announcement, Rivian had raised $2.2 billion from investors, according to investor website PitchBook, and was valued at an estimated $5 billion to $7 billion.
I don' t think it's a supply issue as much as a profit issue. How much in government subsidies does Tesla get? Car makers are in the business of building a product there is demand for and at a profit. Here in Ontario EV sales were about 3-4 % when the government further subusidised the builders with a rebate of $14,000. When that rebate was eliminated EV sales dropped to 2% or less. Nothing to do with supply.

People are all about saving the planet but don't want to pay for it. We have a carbon tax here, when polled folks say they want to reduce emissions but also are feeling chocked by taxes and won't tolerate the amount of tax it will take to make any significant difference. I think there is also the issue of the carbon footprint of manufacture and disposal of EV's, I don't think they are as green as Greta et al would have us believe.
In 10 years an ICE will burn enough fuel, go through enough oil to far surpass the disposal of a single EV battery. The manufacture of light weight materials in EVs are moot since many off those are being inherited by the ICE anyway. The only practical difference between materials in an ICE or EV is the battery and engine.
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      12-27-2019, 04:55 PM   #2692
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Four (4) years where the mainstream auto manufacturers only produce EV? I'm not seeing it.
No - 4 years until auto manufacturers with good EV products can make them at scale to meet demand. The problem with EV sales globally isn't demand, it's supply: either niche product for few customers, or mainstream product but small supply.

Once auto manufacturers with good EV products DO make them at scale, costs will come down and market share will sky rocket just like for any other product (smart phones, flat screen TVs, fitness watches, houses, etc)

As for middle America, how many people predicted Tesla in coastal America 9 years ago? Zero. Well, EV trucks will destroy ICE trucks in every way and in 10 years new trucks will be majority EV:



There's no way Joe Rogan isn't buying a Rivian, and BOOM!, middle America is electric.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
People from California think that EVs are taking over the world until they leave/travel. It's not happening anytime soon.
No, [COLOR="Blue"]auto executives think EVs are taking over the World[/COLOR]:
Volkswagen AG will ramp up spending on electric vehicles, automated driving and other new technology by 36% as the world's largest automaker challenges rivals to keep pace with an aggressive shift into the post-combustion era."We will step up the pace again in the coming years with our investments," said Diess. "Hybridization, electrification and digitalization of our fleet are becoming an increasingly important area of focus."
  • Total expenditures over next five years total roughly 145 billion euros
  • Share of spending on next-generation technology climbs to 40% from 30%
  • 20 million electrics to be based on mass-market MEB platform, with 6 million on technology developed by Porsche and Audi
  • Electrics to be made at plants in Mlada Boleslav, Czech Republic; Chattanooga, Tennessee; and Foshan, China
  • ID.Next electric SUV to start production in 2022 at factory in Emden, Germany
  • Decision on a Turkey plant to be made by the end of the year
Californians just read facts because they think other people already all this stuff until they leave/travel.
We will agree to disagree. I live in a densely populated part of NY.

I saw 2 Tesla's on the road today among the thousands upon thousands of other vehicles.

The Germans are taking a big gamble
NY actually has useful public mass transport.
NY is a large state. NYC is only a small part of it. I live on Long Island. Millions of people, Tons of cars, Very few EVs. The percentage has to be under 1%
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      12-27-2019, 11:11 PM   #2693
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Originally Posted by pennsiveguy View Post
And let's not forget the mining and ... the consequences of blah blah blah, nobody cares.
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Originally Posted by Salty Dog View Post
[ posted some shit ]
Look at you guys thinking up new markets of EV buyers: People who don't give a shit about stuff, they just want a fast cheap car!
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      12-28-2019, 01:10 AM   #2694
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
The planet is not going to be "saved" by the Elon Musk EV revolution.
Oh yeah?? Well, if Elon hasn't saved us all, then how come we're all here to talk about it??
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      12-28-2019, 04:00 AM   #2695
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Oh yeah?? Well, if Elon hasn't saved us all, then how come we're all here to talk about it??
Because it's on the internet.

Any carbon saved by driving a Tesla is lost by useless internet chatter about saving the planet.
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      12-28-2019, 01:41 PM   #2696
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Because it's on the internet.

Any carbon saved by driving a Tesla is lost by useless internet chatter about saving the planet.
Sure, but to be fair, all productivity is lost by useless internet chatter.

Speaking of that, what I'm more fascinated by is:

* if you go to Elon's website, he doesn't say much about saving the World, but that gets all of the air time from the haters

* If you go to Bezos's website, here's a sample of what he's preaching:
  • The federal minimum wage in the U.S. is too low and should be raised
  • Human-induced climate change is real, serious, and action is needed from the public and private sectors. ... We ... have created The Climate Pledge – a commitment to reach the Paris Agreement 10 years early. We are innovating and investing to be net zero carbon by 2040 and run on 100% renewable energy by 2030. We are purchasing 100,000 fully-electric delivery vehicles, the largest order ever for electric delivery vehicles, and investing $100 million in nature-based climate solutions and reforestation projects around the world
  • The rights of LGBTQ+ people must be protected
  • We strongly support the rights of immigrants and immigration reformWe support and lobby for immigration reform, including a legal pathway to citizenship for Dreamers and reforms to the green card and high-skilled visa programs, as well as actively participating in legal challenges to the travel ban.
HOLY SHIT!! so green! so much soy!

That's a square kick in the nuts to all of Trumpitarians right there; So why do you think we hear so much Trumpitarian about Elon, but hardly any about tree-hugging, feriner-lovin Jeff? You'd think the Trumpnazis would be on an Amazon-ban ... course that might ask them to do more than internet whine to your point ...

Asking for a friend.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.

Last edited by GrussGott; 12-28-2019 at 01:47 PM..
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      12-28-2019, 03:35 PM   #2697
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Oh yeah?? Well, if Elon hasn't saved us all, then how come we're all here to talk about it??
Because it's on the internet.

Any carbon saved by driving a Tesla is lost by useless internet chatter about saving the planet.
We don't need to save the planet anyway. It's our basic human right to consume. Don't tread on us, environment!
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      12-28-2019, 03:47 PM   #2698
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Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Yes the inconvenient truth about electric cars, lithium extraction that involves child labor in Africa:


FAKE NEWS!

Wow, even CNN can't stomach this. Thank god that the Chinese are the main suppliers here, I'm sure they'll make sure there are no human rights violations. Also, the mining seems pretty Green.....Saint Greta must be happy
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      12-28-2019, 04:08 PM   #2699
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Sure, but to be fair, all productivity is lost by useless internet chatter.

Speaking of that, what I'm more fascinated by is:

* if you go to Elon's website, he doesn't say much about saving the World, but that gets all of the air time from the haters

* If you go to Bezos's website, here's a sample of what he's preaching:
  • The federal minimum wage in the U.S. is too low and should be raised
  • Human-induced climate change is real, serious, and action is needed from the public and private sectors. ... We ... have created The Climate Pledge – a commitment to reach the Paris Agreement 10 years early. We are innovating and investing to be net zero carbon by 2040 and run on 100% renewable energy by 2030. We are purchasing 100,000 fully-electric delivery vehicles, the largest order ever for electric delivery vehicles, and investing $100 million in nature-based climate solutions and reforestation projects around the world
  • The rights of LGBTQ+ people must be protected
  • We strongly support the rights of immigrants and immigration reformWe support and lobby for immigration reform, including a legal pathway to citizenship for Dreamers and reforms to the green card and high-skilled visa programs, as well as actively participating in legal challenges to the travel ban.
HOLY SHIT!! so green! so much soy!

That's a square kick in the nuts to all of Trumpitarians right there; So why do you think we hear so much Trumpitarian about Elon, but hardly any about tree-hugging, feriner-lovin Jeff? You'd think the Trumpnazis would be on an Amazon-ban ... course that might ask them to do more than internet whine to your point ...

Asking for a friend.
My wife buys everything with one click. Amazon's carbon foot print far exceeds the carbon economy when retail was brick and mortar. I hate to see when the UPS truck shows up to deliver lipstick. Bezos is full of BS as much as Pres Trump. Bezos is just using modern slavery in the form of illegal immigration like most other labor-intensive businesses.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 12-28-2019 at 04:14 PM..
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      12-28-2019, 04:10 PM   #2700
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
My wife buys everything with one click. Amazon's carbon foot print far exceeds the carbon economy when retail was brick and mortar. I hate to see when the UPS truck shows up to deliver lipstick. Bezos is full of BS as much as Pres Trump.
What colour lipstick.....sorry it's the rum talking, asking for a friend.
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      12-28-2019, 04:40 PM   #2701
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What colour lipstick.....sorry it's the rum talking, asking for a friend.
Black; she's Goth...
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      12-30-2019, 07:06 AM   #2702
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We don't need to save the planet anyway. It's our basic human right to consume. Don't tread on us, environment!
What are we saving it for? Serious question.
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      12-30-2019, 07:45 AM   #2703
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Sure, but to be fair, all productivity is lost by useless internet chatter.

Speaking of that, what I'm more fascinated by is:

* if you go to Elon's website, he doesn't say much about saving the World, but that gets all of the air time from the haters

* If you go to Bezos's website, here's a sample of what he's preaching:
  • The federal minimum wage in the U.S. is too low and should be raised
  • Human-induced climate change is real, serious, and action is needed from the public and private sectors. ... We ... have created The Climate Pledge – a commitment to reach the Paris Agreement 10 years early. We are innovating and investing to be net zero carbon by 2040 and run on 100% renewable energy by 2030. We are purchasing 100,000 fully-electric delivery vehicles, the largest order ever for electric delivery vehicles, and investing $100 million in nature-based climate solutions and reforestation projects around the world
  • The rights of LGBTQ+ people must be protected
  • We strongly support the rights of immigrants and immigration reformWe support and lobby for immigration reform, including a legal pathway to citizenship for Dreamers and reforms to the green card and high-skilled visa programs, as well as actively participating in legal challenges to the travel ban.
HOLY SHIT!! so green! so much soy!

That's a square kick in the nuts to all of Trumpitarians right there; So why do you think we hear so much Trumpitarian about Elon, but hardly any about tree-hugging, feriner-lovin Jeff? You'd think the Trumpnazis would be on an Amazon-ban ... course that might ask them to do more than internet whine to your point ...

Asking for a friend.
Now that I'm back behind a keyboard...

Elon has said many times one of his reasons for starting Tesla is to convert the world fleet to EV because he believes it is better for the climate. https://elonmusknews.org/blog/elon-m...climate-change

I wasn't speaking about productivity, I was speaking about how people get on the internet (consuming electricity, which from what I've heard and read, the manufacture of, harms the environment) and espouse about EVs saving the planet. If they really believe in saving the planet then they should stay off the internet and reduce their energy usage and stop blabbering on about climate change and how they are not changing the climate <read this in ironic font>

Legal aliens in the US already have the same rights under the constitution as US-born citizens do; that's actually how it works. Illegal aliens are not immigrants. Based on the current US law, people who enter the US illegally are by definition not immigrants. Immigrant is a term of legal status. Per the legal dictionary at Law.com: "illegal immigrant - n. an alien (non-citizen) who has entered the United States without government permission or stayed beyond the termination date of a visa." Hence, the opposite of "illegal immigrant" is immigrant, which means the person is either a legal non-citizen (i.e. alien with a permanent resident visa), or a citizen if they apply for and are granted US citizenship. That's how that works.

When a person steps over a border of a county, that doesn't mean they are an immigrant; it means they are a migrant. That's how that works.

So I'm completely for immigration reform as much as Jeff. I'm all for controlling the US southern border (all borders in fact) to prevent people from illegally entering the US and allow for controlled immigration of persons based on a merit system. I know, crazy-ass ideas.
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A manual transmission can be set to "comfort", "sport", and "track" modes simply by the technique and speed at which you shift it; it doesn't need "modes", modes are for manumatics that try to behave like a real 3-pedal manual transmission. If you can money-shift it, it's a manual transmission.

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 12-30-2019 at 07:54 AM..
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      12-30-2019, 12:38 PM   #2704
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https://ktla.com/2019/12/29/tesla-dr...killed-2-lapd/
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      12-30-2019, 04:18 PM   #2705
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
We don't need to save the planet anyway. It's our basic human right to consume. Don't tread on us, environment!
What are we saving it for? Serious question.
Sushi. We need to always have good sushi.
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      12-30-2019, 11:44 PM   #2706
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Yikes! I'll need to contact my LAPD contacts and find out more about this one.
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