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      01-09-2020, 02:30 PM   #2839
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Tesla isn't a car company, it's a technology hardware company powered by software, just like Apple:
Software is eating the world.
-- Marc Andreessen, August 20, 2011
that's good because they suck at making cars but i guess that's expected when your producing your "tech" in a tent.







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      01-09-2020, 02:35 PM   #2840
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Originally Posted by KRS_SN View Post
There was a pent up demand for model 3 due to poor supply and new concept and loads of pre orders etc The graph reflects this. Will be interesting to see next years figures.
BTW any graphs comparing sales of model X v X5 or X7 Sales to confirm that the way ahead is electric and Tesla is truly winning?
Part of the equation: the way how potential customers receive a new design or new pricing. Regardless of the EV trend, the so-called "avant-garde design" and the improved performance figures of a new car model: if a customer doesn't like the car or if (s)he considers it overpriced, there's a high chance that no sale will materialize.

Nowadays, the EV trend can be a cheap 'lightning rod' for the marketing department of car manufacturers to explain lukewarm reception/sales of new models with questionable design features.
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      01-09-2020, 02:53 PM   #2841
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Tesla isn't a car company, it's a technology hardware company powered by software, just like Apple:
Software is eating the world.
-- Marc Andreessen, August 20, 2011
that's good because they suck at making cars but i guess that's expected when your producing your "tech" in a tent.







Tesla is very good at producing random outcomes. You have to give them that.
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      01-09-2020, 02:57 PM   #2842
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^ Don't forget about the Model 3 owners who couldn't get into their cars because the handles had frozen in cold weather... Good times.
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      01-09-2020, 03:00 PM   #2843
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Tesla Model Y Performance AWD - CARB Executive Order 12/19/19

PDF

Coming soon ...
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      01-09-2020, 03:22 PM   #2844
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Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
that's good because they suck at making cars but i guess that's expected when your producing your "tech" in a tent.







These pics do not appear to be as new deliveries
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      01-09-2020, 04:27 PM   #2845
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Originally Posted by glennQNYC View Post
Putting aside the Big Enviro conspiracy theories, there is a huge difference between government ensuring the steady supply of an energy resource (like oil), and making tax payers pay to prop up a specific form transportation technology. It's an apples and oranges comparison. What makes it worse is that we have people making $40k/year, helping the wealthy pay for very-expensive second, third, or fourth vehicles. It's just appalling. What's wrong with my concept of limiting subsidies for expensive EVs? Wait- I know! The EV fanboys know their toys will fail in the marketplace without the government assisting.
First of all, tax payers pay for everything, and an EV federal or state rebate gets it's funds from the same source as all government funding, so making it a point that tax payers pay is moot. I could make that argument about presidential golf trips.

Second of all, most new forms of transportation and technology get support from subsidies. Yes, oil is an energy source and EV is not, but why are you limiting viable subsidies to only oil/energy? Mass transit is subsidized... that's a form of transportation. Airline... subsidized. Why? Because we see value in ensuring there are airlines going to even rural areas and that people can get on a bus and get where they need to be in order to function. As such, there is value in a clean(er) vehicle. What's wrong with limiting subsidies on the EV? Nothing inherently, but your argument is that you just don't like them and it sound like you want ALL subsidies to disappear. That's not a reasonable justification. Just because you don't see value it in doesn't mean you have the privilege to deny that value to others.

Thirdly, someone making $40k a year isn't paying as much taxes as someone making $500k a year. The "wealthy" EV owner has paid much more. In comparison, someone making $40k/yr is just as eligible for the federal rebate for the same amount, yet they didn't pay nearly as much into the tax pool as the $300k/yr person. It doesn't really make sense to use income as a metric of worthiness for subsidies does it? Additionally, some states have income limitations for their rebates.

As far as EV fanboy-ism, I am certainly not a fanboy. I'm pragmatic. My politics has nothing to do with my decision to daily an EV, nor does it dictate how I interpret science. I don't entertain nut-job conspiracy theories. The conspiracy theory that our actions have no effect on the environment is just as asinine as the idea that the world will suddenly end in 5 years. I don't have to believe that the world will be saved by my EV to believe that my EV is a better option as a commuter for both me and the environment. I don't deal with ridiculous absolutes.
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      01-09-2020, 04:39 PM   #2846
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Originally Posted by 530iDriver View Post
Yes but you still have to contend with the grid problems once everyone starts plugging in their long range EV at night. There is no free lunch.
Round and round we go!

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      01-09-2020, 05:42 PM   #2847
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Vehicle registration is just that. It does not show quantity of new cars sold off the dealer. With teslas, there are alot of 'flips'. Atleast over here in highly-incentive BC, Canada. Registration counts inflates these numbers. There are a number of Tesla-worship sites like Cleantechnica, Electrek, Telsarati etc that does the public audience a disservice with providing biased and sometimes questionable stats. That's because the authors/owners are long TSLA. IIRC Motor1 or Jalopnik called out Electrek's founder on that.

Whether you're long TSLA or just whatever. It comes down to making or saving a buck and people will vote with their wallet.
Ontario saw EV sales plummet after incentives were taken away.

If you truly want to make an impact on climate... Take the public transit. Ride a bicycle. Walk. Don't fly.
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      01-09-2020, 07:24 PM   #2848
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
that's good because they suck at making cars
Agreed, Tesla did suck at making cars, although I'd add just like Apple sucked at making iPhones, like Amazon sucked at home delivery, like Android still sucks at messaging ... New companies suck at doing new stuff, and Tesla definitely had QC issues.

That said, they seem to have fixed QC (for now?), and Consumer Reports put both Teslas (Model S & 3) back on the "recommended" list in November based on their survey of 400,000+ owners. Here's the full map:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Electric motor horsepower [ tech stuff ] Batteries also have an inherent [ tech stuff ] ... All in all these are minor tweaks to the performance of each.
Maybe I'm over-rotating, but people seem to care about minor tweaks in performance with their cars.

In September, Tesla Version 10 added Smart Summon, Netflix/YouTube/Hulu and Spotify streaming; and v10.1, added a 5% bump in horsepower.

Seems like stuff people like, especially automagically. My M4 Comp didn't get shit in Sept or any other time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
to say this isn’t possible via ICE vehicles is somewhat disingenuous ... they choose not to do so because they’re more conservative and largely still stuck in the old business model.
Business Nerds Only:
That's a great summary of The Innovator's Dilemma, Clay Christiansen's excellent 1997 book, where he details why legacy companies, previously thought invulnerable, go bankrupt due to startups leveraging new technology that lowers costs and/or creates superior products.

We all know the stories ... like Blockbuster laughing at buying Netflix for $50M in 2000, and then going bankrupt in 2010.

Basically, internally, a legacy company's whole culture and power structure is built around maintaining the status quo; any substantial change to that looks financially stupid in a 1-2 year time horizon - no legacy exec is going to advocate disrupting their own business unit or spending billions on a new unproven thing.

Further, the new people hired to "do internet" or whatever - no matter how big of a name - get pushed aside and ignored, and then leave with a grudge.
When I say "it's not possible", I mean:

(1.) legacy ICE company execs aren't going to redesign their cars to do what Teslas can do because it would disrupt their business unit's financials in the 1-2 time horizon, and those execs ain't gonna do that.

(2.) CEOs aren't going to do what it takes to bet the farm on EVs and win, so the best they can do is keep up with startups (walmart, target with Amazon)

(3.) ICE cars have a big complicated engine that can't get OTA updates for horsepower, efficiency and other upgrades. Further, big technology changes like turbos, or new fuels require new engines, which must wait for next-gen vehicles.

With a Tesla, if new battery tech is 1000x more powerful, it's a 1 hour hot-swap. If new solar or other fuel tech is 1000x more efficient, an EV gets the benefit the next time it plugs in. Thus EV, at its foundation, is fast upgradable and hot swappable, especially so the way Tesla has designed their vehicles.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bayarea328xit View Post
I don't quite see things playing out this way for automobiles
This one is the most fun!

First, until 2019Q4 Tesla was a questionable business, but no longer.

Let's hear about that from Tesla Bear, auto expert, and man-who's-realizing-his-reputation-is-fraying, Bob Lutz speaking yesterday:
“Tesla is finally being run like a normal business. [Musk] finally reigned in his costs ... He has been quite adept ... He is focusing on the business, focusing on the product and focusing on cost control”
So first, let's establish that Tesla is (now) a HUGE, well-run business (e.g., if Apple is buying a car manufacturer, it's cheaper for Apple to buy Ford AND GM ... but that would be stupid of course!)

Next, given a strong business, what must a customer TODAY be willing to do to buy a Tesla? This is key because it both establishes the qualities of the early adopters AND what needs to change for sales to scale:

(1.) Customer must be willing to mess with a new product category - EVs in this case
Willing to manage daily procedural changes that come with an EV: different fueling management & methods, different maintenance, Interested in buying and EV and managing the operational changes that come with it: new controls, different fueling management / methods, different maintenance, etc. This also includes culturally; what friends and neighbors say, because cars are fashion choices - I'm reminded of phone holsters - and, sadly, political choices. So basically, willing do things differently from the normals.

(2.) Customer must be willing to use new technology
Willing to manage the challenges and risks that come with new technology: new product bugs, QC, fewer people to ask advice, no easy answers, etc. Usually new / bleeding-edge tech is less reliable and more fussy.

(3.) Customer must be willing to spend, wait, and compromise due to low volumes
Anyone that's waited in line for an iPhone knows: There's pre-ordering, wait times, compromise on colors, etc and you pay a premium for it

Historically, when a startup finds 1M+ people willing to do these things you end up with a cult following to start and mainstream dispersion in 5-10 years.

Examples include Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Linux, Starbucks ($5 coffee? Never!), Southwest Airlines, Walmart, Costco, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, IKEA, SoulCycle, CrossFit, GoPro, mountain bikes, mini-vans, Harleys, Blackberry, Tesla, and Lizzo.

Tesla has the Model Y, the CyberTruck, and semi-trucks coming, and likely other variants on the way, but there are new entrants like Rivian coming as well.

In short, great product businesses that grow from early-adopter cults tend to go mainstream 5-10 years after the first early adopter wave ... I'd argue we're not through that first early-adopter wave across all segments with EVs.

This is why ICE sales will begin collapsing in 5ish years, and why no investors care that Ford & GM sell a lot of ICE cars.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.

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      01-09-2020, 07:55 PM   #2849
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
Agreed, Tesla did suck at making cars, although I'd add just like Apple sucked at making iPhones, like Amazon sucked at home delivery, like Android still sucks at messaging ... New companies suck at doing new stuff, and Tesla definitely had QC issues.

That said, they seem to have fixed QC (for now?), and Consumer Reports put both Teslas (Model S & 3) back on the "recommended" list in November based on their survey of 400,000+ owners. Here's the full map:

Maybe I'm over-rotating, but people seem to care about minor tweaks in performance with their cars.

In September, Tesla Version 10 software notably added Smart Summon, and built-in Netflix, YouTube, Hulu, and Spotify streaming, and Tesla Version 10.1, a 5 percent bump in horsepower.

Seems like stuff people like, especially automagically. My M4 Comp didn't get shit in Sept or any other time.

Business Nerds Only:
Great summary of The Innovator's Dilemma, Clay Christiansen's excellent 1997 book, where he details why legacy companies, previously thought invulnerable, go bankrupt due to startups leveraging new technology that lowers costs and/or creates superior products.

We all know the stories ... like Blockbuster laughing at buying Netflix for $50M in 2000, and then going bankrupt in 2010.

Basically, internally, a legacy company's whole culture and power structure is built around maintaining the status quo; any substantial change to that looks financially stupid in a 1-2 year time horizon - no legacy exec is going to advocate disrupting their own business unit or spending billions on a new unproven thing.

Further, the new people hired to "do internet" or whatever - no matter how big of a name - get pushed aside and ignored, and then leave with a grudge.
When I say "it's not possible", I mean:

(1.) legacy ICE company execs aren't going to redesign their cars to do what Teslas can do because it would disrupt their business unit's financials in the 1-2 time horizon, and those execs ain't gonna do that.

(2.) CEOs aren't going to do what it takes to bet the farm on EVs and win, so the best they can do is keep up with startups (walmart, target with Amazon)

(3.) ICE cars have a big complicated engine that can't get OTA updates for horsepower, efficiency and other upgrades. Further, big technology changes like turbos, or new fuels require new engines, which must wait for next-gen vehicles.

With a Tesla, if new battery tech is 1000x more powerful, it's a 1 hour hot-swap. If new solar or other fuel tech is 1000x more efficient, an EV gets the benefit the next time it plugs in. Thus EV, at its foundation, is fast upgradable and hot swappable, especially so the way Tesla has designed their vehicles.


This one is the most fun!

First, until 2019Q4 Tesla was a questionable business, but no longer.

Let's hear about that from Tesla Bear, auto expert, and man-who's-realizing-his-reputation-is-fraying, Bob Lutz speaking yesterday:
“Tesla is finally being run like a normal business. [Musk] finally reigned in his costs ... He has been quite adept ... He is focusing on the business, focusing on the product and focusing on cost control”
So first, let's establish that Tesla is (now) a HUGE, well-run business (e.g., if Apple is buying a car manufacturer, it's cheaper for Apple to buy Ford AND GM ... but that would be stupid of course!)

Next, given a strong business, what must a customer TODAY be willing to do to buy a Tesla? This is key because it both establishes the qualities of the early adopters AND what needs to change for sales to scale:

(1.) Customer must be willing to mess with a new product category - EVs in this case
Willing to manage daily procedural changes that come with an EV: different fueling management & methods, different maintenance, Interested in buying and EV and managing the operational changes that come with it: new controls, different fueling management / methods, different maintenance, etc. This also includes culturally; what friends and neighbors say, because cars are fashion choices - I'm reminded of phone holsters - and, sadly, political choices. So basically, willing do things differently from the normals.

(2.) Customer must be willing to use new technology
Willing to manage the challenges and risks that come with new technology: new product bugs, QC, fewer people to ask advice, no easy answers, etc. Usually new / bleeding-edge tech is less reliable and more fussy.

(3.) Customer must be willing to spend, wait, and compromise due to low volumes
Anyone that's waited in line for an iPhone knows: There's pre-ordering, wait times, compromise on colors, etc and you pay a premium for it

Historically, when a startup finds 1M+ people willing to do that you end up with a cult following to start and mainstream dispersion in 5-10 years.

Examples include Apple, Amazon, Microsoft, Linux, Starbucks ($5 coffee? Never!), Southwest Airlines, Walmart, Costco, Trader Joe's, Whole Foods, IKEA, SoulCycle, CrossFit, GoPro, mountain bikes, mini-vans, Harleys, Blackberry, Tesla, and Lizzo.

Tesla has the Model Y, the CyberTruck, and semi-trucks coming, and likely other variants on the way, but there are new entrants like Rivian coming as well.

In short, great product businesses that grow from early-adopter cults tend to go mainstream 5-10 years after the first early adopter wave ... I'd argue we're not through that first early-adopter wave across all segments with EVs.
No you don't understand. I don't like Tesla. Therefore Tesla isn't a real company. /s
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      01-09-2020, 08:02 PM   #2850
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
No you don't understand. I don't like Tesla. Therefore Tesla isn't a real company. /s
Appreciate the /s. I caught it this time even without.
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      01-09-2020, 08:53 PM   #2851
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Originally Posted by Conissah View Post
^ Don't forget about the Model 3 owners who couldn't get into their cars because the handles had frozen in cold weather... Good times.
YEAH! let's not forget about stuff!

Let's not forget the Chrysler steering wheel claymore mine

or the Ford cruise-control fire bomb

or the GM gee-were-those-airbags-supposed-to-work feature

geezus, who hasn't started a billion dollar car company with zero build flaws??
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.
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      01-10-2020, 05:30 AM   #2852
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
No you don't understand. I don't like Tesla. Therefore Tesla isn't a real company. /s
I don't like Tesla cars. They are too expensive, ugly in my eyes (well the original Model S was decently styled), and have too much tech for someone who just likes to drive. And the build quality is poor.

I admire the company for what it is attempting to do, but it's been propped up by investors and direct government subsidies (in a multitude number of ways), which is neither here nor there, other than my issues with the globalwarmingclimatechange philosophy.

Musk, I don't care for much.

When some company makes a $35K - $40K 4-door sports sedan EV that drives like a pre-F30 3-series and gets 300+ miles of range in the winter AND doesn't have a movie screen grafted into the dash, then I'll be interested.
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      01-10-2020, 07:28 AM   #2853
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamb1t View Post
Vehicle registration is just that. It does not show quantity of new cars sold off the dealer. With teslas, there are alot of 'flips'. Atleast over here in highly-incentive BC, Canada. Registration counts inflates these numbers. There are a number of Tesla-worship sites like Cleantechnica, Electrek, Telsarati etc that does the public audience a disservice with providing biased and sometimes questionable stats. That's because the authors/owners are long TSLA. IIRC Motor1 or Jalopnik called out Electrek's founder on that.

Whether you're long TSLA or just whatever. It comes down to making or saving a buck and people will vote with their wallet.
Ontario saw EV sales plummet after incentives were taken away.

If you truly want to make an impact on climate... Take the public transit. Ride a bicycle. Walk. Don't fly.
I especially like the last sentence in your post. Also,consider that, depending upon your locale, the power plant you're using might very well be burning fossil fuels. Some still use coal. In that case, the energy used to power that EV still generated carbon based emissions. Regardless of whether those emissions came from a power plant or your tail pipe, they still contribute to the tally. They don't just disappear.
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      01-10-2020, 07:39 AM   #2854
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      01-10-2020, 07:57 AM   #2855
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SamS View Post
Model 3 vs. BMW 3-Series + 4 series in the USA. Both lines start at $40K and go up to $60K+.





No one on this forum is going to accurately predict if the ICE phase out should be 2030/2040/2050. I think the point some people are trying to make is that it is obvious from this interview that BMW has a very conservative approach to offering a competitive mix of BEV vehicles, and as a result, it's costing them sales.
Funny thing is that Tesla is making no money and BMW is doing very well. I don't know why people would expect profitable companies to produce vehicles that lose money.
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      01-10-2020, 10:10 AM   #2856
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Funny thing is that Tesla is making no money and BMW is doing very well. I don't know why people would expect profitable companies to produce vehicles that lose money.
I agree they want a seamless integration of product and least amount of hicups. At this moment in my life it doesn't make total sense for me to go full EV. I am willing to adapt at a later point but just not now.
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      01-10-2020, 12:09 PM   #2857
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
Funny thing is that Tesla is making no money and BMW is doing very well.
No, the funny thing is you're comparing a company with 50 years of legacy infrastructure that makes products in different segments with a startup that's had to fund factories, and design and build an entirely new product from scratch. Maybe compare BMW's EV business with Tesla's?
Now THAT would be funny! Because if BMW has to worry about a 3er ICE vs Model 3, they're fucked.

FYI: Tesla has been profitable for 3 of the last 5 quarters with increasing demand & revenue, falling costs, massive market expansion, plus their service & energy revenue is rising - at this rate, 2020Q4 will fund every loss Tesla has ever had - that's why their stock price has them valued more Ford and GM combined and why Jim Cramer believes they'll soon be valued at double those two.
If we look at the actual numbers over Tesla's entire history (the last 20 quarters) here are the differentials:

Tesla Lifetime Operating Income: -$3.83 Billion lifetime total
Tesla Lifetime Net Income: -$5.439 Billion lifetime total

You might notice that for a global corporation these are tiny numbers. Which means pre-China, pre-Model Y (75% of parts are model 3), a single Tesla quarter, 18Q3, recovered 6% of Tesla's entire lifetime of losses.

If you prefer pictures, it looks like this:

Tesla Costs are falling despite new factories and new models coming to market:





Tesla's business is pivoting to profitability despite massive new infrastructure costs:



If you prefer spoken words, here's Tesla's biggest auto industry bear, Bob Lutz, explaining it 2 days ago:

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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.

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      01-10-2020, 12:27 PM   #2858
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I don't like Tesla cars ... have too much tech for someone who just likes to drive. When some company makes a $35K - $40K 4-door sports sedan EV that drives like a pre-F30 3-series and gets 300+ miles of range in the winter AND doesn't have a movie screen grafted into the dash, then I'll be interested.
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At this moment in my life it doesn't make total sense for me to go full EV. I am willing to adapt at a later point but just not now
These are great posts that speak to Tesla the product (the thread topic) rather than the BS around climate change or the "profitability" stumblings.

Personally I won't be getting a Tesla any time soon, I don't have an iPhone, and I'm not on Facebook, snapchat, tictoc, bingbong or whateverthefuck. I think iPhones are ghey and everytime I see a dude with one I wanna say, "you know you're a man right?" But then I drive an M4 'vert soooo....


If I had to compare this industry evolution, it'd probably be to the mechanical watch / quartz (electric!) transition in the 80s - Most mechanical watch companies died, a few survived. And, you can certainly still buy mechanical watches today - lots of people do, I have many - although it's a niche market and generally very expensive, with purchases being emotional vs practical (watches are purely jewelry after all).

I'd say that's where the ICE market is going: niche, emotional products with EV gobbling up the rest of the market as infrastructure grows and costs plummet.

If i had to bet, the Germans and some Japanese & Italians survive the EV transition.
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I thought the next M4 was going to be a flying car powered by bloomin' onions and a teaspoon of mayonnaise. At least that's what I read on the internet @ BimmerPoop.org.

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      01-10-2020, 03:23 PM   #2859
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Some of the posters here reminds me of the game "Top Trump" where it is either you win or I win. Also remember those days of nVidia vs 3dfx or Intel vs AMD. Now we have Tesla vs. World. It's rather immature and myopic.

The global economy is fluid and dynamic. I think BMW has a long term strategy in mind with the disparate use cases with transportation energy sources globally. They may not dominate in BEV, but as a global business, it has to see pass this segment and be able to cater to a variety of personal transportation energy source. What BMW and other car mfg is enabling its product portfolio to cover as much bases as possible with profit in mind.

I am not sure if Tesla will go away in 10 years. Its inception was 2009 (I might be wrong) with the first mass produced product the Model S in 2012. earlier if you consider the Roadster. It has only recently turned sporadic quarterly profit in 2018/19. TSLA has been supported by investments. Therefore I am unsure of its fundamentals if the economy changes and investors leave. So will Tesla be around in 10 years. I think so. I think there's value in the company especially its battery tech and supercharging infrastructure.

And who doesn't enjoy Elon's memes?
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      01-10-2020, 03:45 PM   #2860
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Originally Posted by GrussGott View Post
These are great posts that speak to Tesla the product (the thread topic) rather than the BS around climate change or the "profitability" stumblings.

Personally I won't be getting a Tesla any time soon, I don't have an iPhone, and I'm not on Facebook, snapchat, tictoc, bingbong or whateverthefuck. I think iPhones are ghey and everytime I see a dude with one I wanna say, "you know you're a man right?" But then I drive an M4 'vert soooo....


If I had to compare this industry evolution, it'd probably be to the mechanical watch / quartz (electric!) transition in the 80s - Most mechanical watch companies died, a few survived. And, you can certainly still buy mechanical watches today - lots of people do, I have many - although it's a niche market and generally very expensive, with purchases being emotional vs practical (watches are purely jewelry after all).

I'd say that's where the ICE market is going: niche, emotional products with EV gobbling up the rest of the market as infrastructure grows and costs plummet.

If i had to bet, the Germans and some Japanese & Italians survive the EV transition.
If we are talking just product, the Ford E-stang is a possibility for me. There should a reasonably priced RWD 300-mile version in early '21. Not as much tech, or at least make it optional (the old dogs are good at options diversity) and a nation-wide dealer network is a winning combo to convert me.

As I've written before, my dad was an early adopter of the GE Electrak garden tractor in 1972. I spent the better part of a decade cutting grass with that machine. It was far better than any gas lawn tractor of the time and any since. So I've been down the EV road.
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