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      08-20-2014, 02:15 PM   #397
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
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Are there posts that are missing from this thread?

Edit:
Never mind. I see now that there absolutely are missing posts. Post 394 above has in it a reference to post 402, and this is post 396. It'll be interesting to see what happens when post 402 appears again....
Petros's posts are gone...and he is banned.
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      08-20-2014, 02:46 PM   #398
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Originally Posted by Ben2k9 View Post
Petros's posts are gone...and he is banned.
I guess openly supporting a known terrorist organization and making anti-Semitic comments will do that to you
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      08-20-2014, 03:42 PM   #399
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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
i thought the un was the one that established the state of israel in the first place?
id like to address this point

in 1948 the UN was made up of mostly civilized democratic countries, today it has members such as iran who openly state that they would like to wipe israel off the map.
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      08-20-2014, 04:49 PM   #400
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Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
I guess openly supporting a known terrorist organization and making anti-Semitic comments will do that to you
That kind of person should not be tolerated in any civil setting.
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      08-20-2014, 05:40 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
I guess openly supporting a known terrorist organization and making anti-Semitic comments will do that to you
I doubt that was the cause of the ban. Or perhaps more to the point, I should say that were I a moderator, I wouldn't ban him for that; he's entitled to have his opinions just as racists and all manners of others whom I'd consider miscreants are entitled to feel the way they feel about people of other races.

I don't mind that he favors Hamas over Israel. He's entitled to have his opinion on the matter, and he's deserves to have his opinion heard and to defend it, civilly, if folks what to raise arguments showing why they think his opinions are misguided. The problem I had with him is that he insulted me rather than my thoughts/words and their merit or lack thereof. People generally are careful not to disparage others in person and the anonymity of the WWW is no reason to discard that care.

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      08-20-2014, 05:49 PM   #402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
id like to address this point

in 1948 the UN was made up of mostly civilized democratic countries, today it has members such as iran who openly state that they would like to wipe israel off the map.
Okay. I'm not sure what you're driving at.

The U.N. is the body that provides a global forum for nations to discuss world matters. All countries need to belong and be given the opportunity to be heard. Were you just making an observation or are you intimating that something should be done, on the basis of simply having a point of view, with regard to U.N. membership/participation by states that advocate for the annihilation of other states?

I don't support the view that Israel should be eradicated, but I support Iran's right to have that view. What they do to act on making that view a reality is a different matter altogether.

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      08-20-2014, 05:51 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Ben2k9 View Post
Petros's posts are gone...and he is banned.
So is my post wherein I upbraided him for insulting me.

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      08-20-2014, 05:56 PM   #404
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
id like to address this point

in 1948 the UN was made up of mostly civilized democratic countries, today it has members such as iran who openly state that they would like to wipe israel off the map.
from my understanding, arab nations (including iran) participated in the un general assembly back then. they all voted against the proposed partition plan.
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      08-20-2014, 06:12 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by gatorfast View Post
I guess openly supporting a known terrorist organization and making anti-Semitic comments will do that to you
Not all nations consider Hamas a terrorist organization...
Australia, Germany (land of the ///M) UK, China, Norway, Russia, Switzerland, Iran and the United Nations etc recognize Hamas as a legitimate democratic government.

Hamas (like them or not) is a democratically elected government by the people, however their means of diplomacy are rather extreme.

From an outsider looking in, its obvious Israel has their tentacles steeped in US policy, there's even an "anti boycott" law for Israel and Israeli businesses.
So its not surprising the US side with Israel on that account.
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      08-20-2014, 06:43 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by TS135i View Post
Not all nations consider Hamas a terrorist organization...
Australia, Germany (land of the ///M) UK, China, Norway, Russia, Switzerland, Iran and the United Nations etc recognize Hamas as a legitimate democratic government.

Hamas (like them or not) is a democratically elected government by the people, however their means of diplomacy are rather extreme.

From an outsider looking in, its obvious Israel has their tentacles steeped in US policy, there's even an "anti boycott" law specificity for Israel and Israeli businesses.
So its not surprising the US side with Israel on that account.
What is the name of the country of which Hamas is the elected governing party/body? I may have missed it, but AFAIK, Gaza Strip and The West Bank have yet to achieve nationhood, although they are close. I agree that the Strip has a degree of autonomy, but at the end of the day, it's still part of Israel.

In my mind, Hamas is a subordinate governing entity within a larger nation, much like a state government in U.S. In that way, recognizing Hamas is the same as recognizing Iowa.

I guess recognizing Hamas officially/publicly is a nice gesture, but short of that and acknowledging that, for as long as they are the elected body in that part of Israel, they are the organization with which the rest of the world must deal to negotiate (or help to do so) any accord between Israel and the Palestinians, I don't know what the point of recognizing them is. Were I the leader of a nation, I'd no more consider Hamas a sovereign equal than I would my cat sovereign over her litter box. The cat may feel differently, but she can't empty the litter box and she and I both know she wants it emptied ASAP, so she doesn't really have that much control over it. Hamas has got slightly more control over the Gaza Strip than does my cat over the litter box, but not much.

All the best.
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Last edited by tony20009; 08-20-2014 at 06:50 PM..
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      08-20-2014, 09:01 PM   #407
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I guess recognizing Hamas officially/publicly is a nice gesture, but short of that and acknowledging that, for as long as they are the elected body in that part of Israel, they are the organization with which the rest of the world must deal to negotiate (or help to do so) any accord between Israel and the Palestinians, I don't know what the point of recognizing them is. Were I the leader of a nation, I'd no more consider Hamas a sovereign equal than I would my cat sovereign over her litter box. The cat may feel differently, but she can't empty the litter box and she and I both know she wants it emptied ASAP, so she doesn't really have that much control over it. Hamas has got slightly more control over the Gaza Strip than does my cat over the litter box, but not much.

All the best.
Palestine is a recognized sovereign land/government, they've had foreign embassies/consulates/ambassadors in all four corners of the world for well over 100 years.
Those wishing to enter Palestine require a valid visa/passport. The Palestinian people did't just fall out of the sky.
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      08-20-2014, 11:49 PM   #408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TS135i View Post
Palestine is a recognized sovereign land/government, they've had foreign embassies/consulates/ambassadors in all four corners of the world for well over 100 years.
Those wishing to enter Palestine require a valid visa/passport. The Palestinian people did't just fall out of the sky.
First off, I know full and well the Palestinian people didn't materialize out of thin air. They and their ancestors have populated more or less the same lands as they do now for hundreds of years. Culturally, but not as Muslims, they have been there for even longer. Indeed, it wouldn't surprise me to find out that they have been there since at or before the time of Abraham, whom I would wager was more likely an Arab than he was a man of European or Oriental extraction. Truth be told, I would consider Abraham, and all the other Jews mentioned in the Bible, Palestinian.

Indeed, were I to think it'd solve the problem, I'd argue for Israel changing its name to Palestine. It was clearly called Palestine at least as early as 5 B.C.E. and there's evidence suggesting a derivation of that name as far back as ~1200 B.C.E. Jews lived there and variously controlled it for a long time and apparently it was called Palestine in those times. The substance of what the place is today is the same regardless of whether it's called Israel or Palestine.

Yes, the U.N. have granted Palestine "observer" status and have accepted Hamas as the party controlling the government there. That is what it is and starts the way toward full nationhood, IMO. That's as it should be as go actions of the U.N.; it'd be pure folly not to provide a way for the body that represents the Palestinian people with a means to participate in the U.N. discussions affecting the Palestinian people.

Yes, they have embassies/consulates. That's necessary for a nation, or a group of people wanting to become a nation, to have "normal" avenues of dialogue and relations with other nations. And realistically, what do other nations have to gain by not providing themselves with a means to formally communicate with the body that has been elected to represent the people who live in Gaza and The West Bank?

The thing is, that Hamas doesn't comport itself like the government of a nation. They seen able only to use violent, physical force to dragoon everyone else into agreeing with them. A nation, despite whatever differences it may have with other nations, doesn't found itself on the explicit purpose of eradicating another nation. The reason is quite simple: if that "nation" were to achieve it's goal, having done so, it should close up shop and cease to be a nation.

What Hamas have outlined is the sort of thing a task force, or a non-governmental organization might define as a goal. That makes it a project not a nation. Nations have objectives that are positive and intended to make things possible for its people, not destroy things for other people. Nations do not in their founding documents declare war, holy or otherwise, on anyone who doesn't agree with them.

Thus, IMO, Hamas, and by association Palestine, do not deserve recognition as a nation unless and until they modify their documents of nationhood. Sure, they are free to craft their documents any way they see fit; I'll grant them that much. The rest of the world is also free to call "a spade a spade" and not accord Palestine the dignity of nationhood, despite giving it some of the privileges thereof.

All the best.
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      08-21-2014, 06:46 AM   #409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TS135i View Post
Palestine is a recognized sovereign land/government, they've had foreign embassies/consulates/ambassadors in all four corners of the world for well over 100 years.
Those wishing to enter Palestine require a valid visa/passport. The Palestinian people did't just fall out of the sky.
The "State of Palestine" is recognized by SOME countries. Countries in Africa, Iran, China, and a couple European countries. I believe they declared independence in 1988.
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      08-21-2014, 09:57 AM   #410
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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
from my understanding, arab nations (including iran) participated in the un general assembly back then. they all voted against the proposed partition plan.
but it passed because it got the 2/3rds that it needed. if you look at alot of the islamic countries from back then and compare them to what they look like now its like night and day, alot of them became radicalized and with radicalization comes the mentality that israel (and jews) deserves to be destroyed
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      08-21-2014, 10:03 AM   #411
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TS135i View Post
Palestine is a recognized sovereign land/government, they've had foreign embassies/consulates/ambassadors in all four corners of the world for well over 100 years.
Those wishing to enter Palestine require a valid visa/passport. The Palestinian people did't just fall out of the sky.
the "palestine" of 100 years ago and the "palestine" of today are not the same.

its kind of like when the cleveland browns moved to baltimore to become the ravens and then Cleveland got an expansion franchise and called it the browns again. the name is the same but it is not the same state.

Last edited by bkM3; 08-21-2014 at 12:07 PM..
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      08-21-2014, 10:42 AM   #412
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
the "palestine" of 100 years ago and the "palestine" of today are not the same.

its kind of like when the cleveland browns moved to baltimore to become the ravens and then Cleveland got an expansion franchise and called it the browns agains. the name is the same but it is not the same state.
When did Cleveland move from Ohio? I am clearly missing too much U.S., domestic news by working overseas.

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      08-21-2014, 10:53 AM   #413
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
When did Cleveland move from Ohio? I am clearly missing too much U.S., domestic news by working overseas.

All the best.
i was referring to palestine, not ohio
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      08-21-2014, 12:05 PM   #414
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
i was referring to palestine, not ohio
Sorry....I misunderstood you. I definitely didn't realize you meant Palestine, not that I was sure really of what you meant. I did sort of figure it wasn't Ohio. LOL

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      08-21-2014, 02:39 PM   #415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
but it passed because it got the 2/3rds that it needed. if you look at alot of the islamic countries from back then and compare them to what they look like now its like night and day, alot of them became radicalized and with radicalization comes the mentality that israel (and jews) deserves to be destroyed
I think that part of the reason why they got radicalized was because they lost the vote. they probably felt that the destiny of arabs was left out of their hands so they started resorting to radicalism to support arab nationalism.
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      08-21-2014, 02:52 PM   #416
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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
I think that part of the reason why they got radicalized was because they lost the vote. they probably felt that the destiny of arabs was left out of their hands so they started resorting to radicalism to support arab nationalism.
I think to some extent you are right.

I don't know why they thought that as plenty of Israelis are Arabs, be they Atheists, Agnostics, Christians, Muslim, Jewish or something else. The fate of Arabs, then or now, hardly hangs on the status of that plot of land but rather on whether Arab people are committed to preserving the Arab-ness of their heritage. It's a cultural thing, not a political one. Or more appropriately, it doesn't have to be a political one. People were Arab long before they were practitioners of some faith that exists today.

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      08-21-2014, 04:54 PM   #417
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
the "palestine" of 100 years ago and the "palestine" of today are not the same.

its kind of like when the cleveland browns moved to baltimore to become the ravens and then Cleveland got an expansion franchise and called it the browns again. the name is the same but it is not the same state.
Gotcha, in the same way the native American Indians & and Australian Aborigines are different people today as of 500 years ago, it all makes sense now!
When China eventually takes over the US in alliance with Russia the act can now be justified
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      08-21-2014, 04:57 PM   #418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
I think that part of the reason why they got radicalized was because they lost the vote. they probably felt that the destiny of arabs was left out of their hands so they started resorting to radicalism to support arab nationalism.
Compare the size of Israel to the size of the Muslim countries and tell me if you really believe that. Losing a vote and then declaring that everybody who does not convert to your religion deserves to die is not an excuse.

Btw, the term arabs refers to Muslims, Christians, jews, and any other ethnicity that came from the Arab lands so it's not in support of Arab nationalism.
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