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      02-22-2018, 04:15 PM   #331
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
You started out insulting other people, not to mention your attempt to stereotype them into the categories that you have created, and that's just the tip of the iceberg. You bring up natural gas, but you mistakenly believe that the combustion has to take place inside your car's engine. It's not even worth it to attempt to explain to you any further.
True. At the moment, Tesla cannot make vehicle, and Elon Musk is pulling a scheme unforgiven to anyone else but. So, for example, their production line is abysmal (GE CEO cautioned that 3 years ago, Elon just admitted). Making cars at slow pace is reality, and Elon is already talking 10+ m/s? Yeah right.

Financially, their stock price and numbers make no sense. It should collapse.

BUT, as experts point out, Tesla investors and prebuy owners are not going for the financial proposition, but the mental image Elon sells (or conns) them. That is the only the average financial guru can explain. From an investment standpoint, it is a bad bed: poor sales, poor delivery, swallowing debt, high PER etc. Top it all, they truly do not know how to make reliable cars. Many gurus forecast Tesla collapsing, or being bought in some future.

That aside, as bloated and unrealistic as they are, Tesla has whipped the entire industry into moving electric. Its buyers genuinely believe the mantra (iffy in very cold climates, at -40 its range is low). Its buyers wait 2-4 years for delivery. So perhaps the reason why Tesla might succeed is indeed blind mental images as sold by Musk. But, interview after interview, Elon is charming his audience into not doing the one thing they should do: sell.

In a dream world, everyone moves to solid state batteries, Apple rescues Tesla, BMW makes light superpowerful hybrid powertrains, and charges last 2000 kms. Will see.
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      02-22-2018, 06:39 PM   #332
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Originally Posted by Musashi View Post

That aside, as bloated and unrealistic as they are, Tesla has whipped the entire industry into moving electric. Its buyers genuinely believe the mantra (iffy in very cold climates, at -40 its range is low). Its buyers wait 2-4 years for delivery. So perhaps the reason why Tesla might succeed is indeed blind mental images as sold by Musk. But, interview after interview, Elon is charming his audience into not doing the one thing they should do: sell.

In a dream world, everyone moves to solid state batteries, Apple rescues Tesla, BMW makes light superpowerful hybrid powertrains, and charges last 2000 kms. Will see.
Regardless of whether Tesla survives, electric cars are here to stay. I think the majority of cars on the roads will be electric in the future. There's no other efficient forms of automobile propulsion (natural gas? fuel cell?) on the horizon and gas cars are getting phased out. Any manufacturer who wants to be a part of the future needs to develop electric cars.
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      02-26-2018, 07:48 AM   #333
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there were more feasible options but the powers that be told us we do not want them.
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      02-26-2018, 08:15 AM   #334
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Originally Posted by Musashi View Post

That aside, as bloated and unrealistic as they are, Tesla has whipped the entire industry into moving electric. Its buyers genuinely believe the mantra (iffy in very cold climates, at -40 its range is low). Its buyers wait 2-4 years for delivery. So perhaps the reason why Tesla might succeed is indeed blind mental images as sold by Musk. But, interview after interview, Elon is charming his audience into not doing the one thing they should do: sell.

In a dream world, everyone moves to solid state batteries, Apple rescues Tesla, BMW makes light superpowerful hybrid powertrains, and charges last 2000 kms. Will see.
Regardless of whether Tesla survives, electric cars are here to stay. I think the majority of cars on the roads will be electric in the future. There's no other efficient forms of automobile propulsion (natural gas? fuel cell?) on the horizon and gas cars are getting phased out. Any manufacturer who wants to be a part of the future needs to develop electric cars.
I wouldn't be so certain. Just a few years ago Europe thought diesel was the future and now that's being phased out. Back in the 70s I was told the metric system was taking over and that still hasn't come to fruition. We don't even have high-speed internet across the country... EVs are a far, far way from being the norm in the US. I need to see some real actual sales volume to prove the viability of EV sales.
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      02-26-2018, 08:45 AM   #335
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Toyota predicted majority of their fleet to be EV after 2042. Now they are saying it's only a prediction. My guess is that judging by how slowly everything moves, it will be even more delayed. I think in reality we are looking at hybrid power-plants in majority of cars by 2050. Full EVs? Who knows when and if it even will happen?

Tesla - it's just doing what it can wile other manufacturers let Tesla do it. As soon as major players will start going after same market - Tesla will be just another mediocre car manufacturer. Why mediocre? Because they don't excel in anything they produce so far. Chassis? I think BMW or Porsche have a lot more better chassis even with ICE vehicles lol. Can you imagine when BMW or Porsche will produce EVs with lower center of gravity and start utilizing all benefits of EV? It will be next level of performance. Porsche is already making success with its Mission E - it's leaps better than anything Tesla produced or will produce in next 20 years lol.
What about luxury and comfort and cabin and interior? Yeah, well, Tesla is mediocre in that too. Even with Mercedes help and head start - it still has a lot of issues with quality and finish and comfort options. Well what's left then? A Panasonic/LG batteries lol? That's not a know-how or a secret sauce by any means and is a well known process - everyone are capable of using it and judging by what I've read about BMWs advances - I won't be surprised in couple years BMW leasing new tech (battery and autopilot) to Tesla lol. No really, read up about BMWs new battery tech they are developing - IMHO a lot more tech and a lot more advanced than just putting some Panasonic batteries together.
To sum it up - Tesla makes EV cars that they can make, while BMW can and will manufacture EV cars they want to make. Big difference

Last edited by DuSh; 02-26-2018 at 08:55 AM..
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      02-26-2018, 08:48 AM   #336
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      02-28-2018, 03:34 PM   #337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuSh View Post
Toyota predicted majority of their fleet to be EV after 2042. Now they are saying it's only a prediction. My guess is that judging by how slowly everything moves, it will be even more delayed. I think in reality we are looking at hybrid power-plants in majority of cars by 2050. Full EVs? Who knows when and if it even will happen?

Tesla - it's just doing what it can wile other manufacturers let Tesla do it. As soon as major players will start going after same market - Tesla will be just another mediocre car manufacturer. Why mediocre? Because they don't excel in anything they produce so far. Chassis? I think BMW or Porsche have a lot more better chassis even with ICE vehicles lol. Can you imagine when BMW or Porsche will produce EVs with lower center of gravity and start utilizing all benefits of EV? It will be next level of performance. Porsche is already making success with its Mission E - it's leaps better than anything Tesla produced or will produce in next 20 years lol.
What about luxury and comfort and cabin and interior? Yeah, well, Tesla is mediocre in that too. Even with Mercedes help and head start - it still has a lot of issues with quality and finish and comfort options. Well what's left then? A Panasonic/LG batteries lol? That's not a know-how or a secret sauce by any means and is a well known process - everyone are capable of using it and judging by what I've read about BMWs advances - I won't be surprised in couple years BMW leasing new tech (battery and autopilot) to Tesla lol. No really, read up about BMWs new battery tech they are developing - IMHO a lot more tech and a lot more advanced than just putting some Panasonic batteries together.
To sum it up - Tesla makes EV cars that they can make, while BMW can and will manufacture EV cars they want to make. Big difference
Seems like a lot of BMW hype and no bases behind it
Tesla outsells 7-series while being electric car
https://electrek.co/2017/05/26/tesls...uxury-segment/
http://europe.autonews.com/article/2...hips-in-europe
https://global.handelsblatt.com/mobi...-europe-889862
BMW has nothing yet to compete with it
All speculation and no solid offers for EV crowd
I would expect a bit stronger progress from such large and old car manufacturer.
Startup is growing rapidly and it is not going anywhere...

Last edited by AndreyATC; 02-28-2018 at 03:43 PM..
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      02-28-2018, 04:40 PM   #338
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Cool story bro... Tesla is worth more than Ford.

Highly unlikely, because the BEV Disruption is already on it's way...

Maybe Apple will buy Tesla and change the name but otherwise no dice for you.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Karmic Man View Post
Funny how most thinks EV are the future but my own prediction is Tesla might not be around 10 years from now.

They loss USD620M in 2016 and loss USD13,000 on very car they sold. The loss was only USD4,000 per car back in 2015.

Their cash flows are predominantly sustained by all the punters from Wall street.

When Wall street crashes (not if but when) and pull the plug so will Tesla.
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      02-28-2018, 07:35 PM   #339
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ORIGIN M. View Post
Cool story bro... Tesla is worth more than Ford.

Highly unlikely, because the BEV Disruption is already on it's way...

Maybe Apple will buy Tesla and change the name but otherwise no dice for you.
Great take
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      02-28-2018, 08:58 PM   #340
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Originally Posted by ScarecrowBoat View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ORIGIN M. View Post
Cool story bro... Tesla is worth more than Ford.

Highly unlikely, because the BEV Disruption is already on it's way...

Maybe Apple will buy Tesla and change the name but otherwise no dice for you.
Great take
I am just sick of people posting their FUD without knowing the reality of what is clear and logical if they just looked at reality.
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      02-28-2018, 10:50 PM   #341
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Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Seems like a lot of BMW hype and no bases behind it
Tesla outsells 7-series while being electric car
https://electrek.co/2017/05/26/tesls...uxury-segment/
http://europe.autonews.com/article/2...hips-in-europe
https://global.handelsblatt.com/mobi...-europe-889862
BMW has nothing yet to compete with it
All speculation and no solid offers for EV crowd
I would expect a bit stronger progress from such large and old car manufacturer.
Startup is growing rapidly and it is not going anywhere...
Tesla sells of course, as there's no real EV competition. Yet. That was my point actually. It sells while there's no competition. Let's talk when big 3 Germany makers will enter EV market.
Also, it's all my opinion, but Tesla model S is a good 4 inch lesser wheelbase than 7 series and 8 inch less than S klasse. Shouldn't you compare it to more like 5 series? Not only in size, but in amenities and options Tesla is closer to 5 series (if even that)
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      03-01-2018, 05:59 AM   #342
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuSh View Post
Tesla sells of course, as there's no real EV competition. Yet. That was my point actually. It sells while there's no competition. Let's talk when big 3 Germany makers will enter EV market.
Also, it's all my opinion, but Tesla model S is a good 4 inch lesser wheelbase than 7 series and 8 inch less than S klasse. Shouldn't you compare it to more like 5 series? Not only in size, but in amenities and options Tesla is closer to 5 series (if even that)
Eh, back seat and truck area is pretty useless in the 5 compared to the S.

... and the tesla has a lot of toys that neither the 5 nor the 7 has, so I'm not sure a spec for spec option comparison is really a thing.
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      03-01-2018, 08:01 AM   #343
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuSh View Post
Tesla sells of course, as there's no real EV competition. Yet. That was my point actually. It sells while there's no competition. Let's talk when big 3 Germany makers will enter EV market.
Also, it's all my opinion, but Tesla model S is a good 4 inch lesser wheelbase than 7 series and 8 inch less than S klasse. Shouldn't you compare it to more like 5 series? Not only in size, but in amenities and options Tesla is closer to 5 series (if even that)
I was at a Tesla dealership a couple days ago checking out the S and 3, because these cars have no ICE engine and traditional parts, they can maximize the space in a way that is difficult for other cars to match, like how the long snouts of the 5 and 7 arenít really boosting the space much inside.
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      03-01-2018, 10:42 AM   #344
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuSh View Post
Tesla sells of course, as there's no real EV competition. Yet. That was my point actually. It sells while there's no competition. Let's talk when big 3 Germany makers will enter EV market.
Also, it's all my opinion, but Tesla model S is a good 4 inch lesser wheelbase than 7 series and 8 inch less than S klasse. Shouldn't you compare it to more like 5 series? Not only in size, but in amenities and options Tesla is closer to 5 series (if even that)
By the time they come out with something, they will be so outdated...
Let's not even go to size debate
I had Model S while 3 of my kids were pretty small
So, 3 carseats installed and huge bugaboo stroller on board 99% of the time
Guess what? 3 adults and 3 kids with this kind of load could go Costco shopping
Try that on any BMW or MB SUV, forget sedan
Now, that i'm on Model X, the only thing could beat it is some gigantic gas gazler. But what fun driving that barge, when you can have fun with 3 second car
Tesla features, for me as a dad, outweigh any missing features.
Being able to pre-heat/cool car from your phone is one.
Getting OTA updates regularly, so your car stays current as it ages.
Falcon wing doors is great for getting your child into carseat, especially in bad weather.
Anyone remember what it's like to put and buckle your child in a car while standing in pouring rain?
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      03-02-2018, 12:22 PM   #345
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Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
By the time they come out with something, they will be so outdated...
Let's not even go to size debate
I had Model S while 3 of my kids were pretty small
So, 3 carseats installed and huge bugaboo stroller on board 99% of the time
Guess what? 3 adults and 3 kids with this kind of load could go Costco shopping
Try that on any BMW or MB SUV, forget sedan
Now, that i'm on Model X, the only thing could beat it is some gigantic gas gazler. But what fun driving that barge, when you can have fun with 3 second car
Tesla features, for me as a dad, outweigh any missing features.
Being able to pre-heat/cool car from your phone is one.
Getting OTA updates regularly, so your car stays current as it ages.
Falcon wing doors is great for getting your child into carseat, especially in bad weather.
Anyone remember what it's like to put and buckle your child in a car while standing in pouring rain?
We are both biased and there's little objective info coming from us. Any car has pros and cons. In your case it makes sense to have Tesla and it suits you well. In my case Tesla wold be useless. I'm a medical student and I live 4k miles from home, on a campus. There's no charging points and I won't feel comfortable to use any Tesla model or any EV here. For me EVs are too limited. When I was buying my x5 50i I could have bought used Tesla from website, but once again, when I saw Tesla S interior it was nowhere near my x5 - it looked and felt like Camry. Unfortunately I don't think Tesla can build a luxury cars. Maybe model X is more like it? I haven't seen it myself in person. When I graduate and finish residency, I'll be able to afford any car I want, but I doubt I will choose Tesla, unless they will improve by that time a lot. I don't feel it as something special, they don't thrill me. They are not luxurious enough, not fast enough (yes, 0-60 is good, but it's not the only parameter I'm looking at), they don't look good enough (tho black Model X looks more like it, still miles until it can match X5M looks), infrastructure is not good enough etc. I can see myself buying a Porsche, Jag or maybe even class B motorhome, but I don't see myself in bland EV car. Tesla has it's share now, but it's share will shrink in the future - just matter of time when other makers enter the market. Jag already made a trial first try I think: https://www.jaguar.com/jaguar-range/i-pace/index.html and it already looks better than anything Tesla created so far. And that's not even serious attempt if you ask me - as I'll repeat myself it's still too early for a full blown EV market expansion. Just wait and see how many really nice models will surface within next years from various manufacturers

Last edited by DuSh; 03-02-2018 at 12:28 PM..
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      03-02-2018, 12:54 PM   #346
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The biggest thing holding back EV technology is the batteries. The limits of lithium ion batteries are well known and everyone is butting up against it. They need higher capacity batteries that weigh less and charge faster. Not to mention recycles better so it's not buried in a landfill when it doesn't hold a charge anymore. When such a battery becomes mainstream, EVs will get a lot better.
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      03-02-2018, 01:07 PM   #347
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
The biggest thing holding back EV technology is the batteries. The limits of lithium ion batteries are well known and everyone is butting up against it. They need higher capacity batteries that weigh less and charge faster. Not to mention recycles better so it's not buried in a landfill when it doesn't hold a charge anymore. When such a battery becomes mainstream, EVs will get a lot better.
Even that is not enough. You need charging stations on every current gas station - or at least 80% of them.
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      03-02-2018, 02:15 PM   #348
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by DuSh View Post
Tesla sells of course, as there's no real EV competition. Yet. That was my point actually. It sells while there's no competition. Let's talk when big 3 Germany makers will enter EV market.
Also, it's all my opinion, but Tesla model S is a good 4 inch lesser wheelbase than 7 series and 8 inch less than S klasse. Shouldn't you compare it to more like 5 series? Not only in size, but in amenities and options Tesla is closer to 5 series (if even that)
By the time they come out with something, they will be so outdated...
Let's not even go to size debate
I had Model S while 3 of my kids were pretty small
So, 3 carseats installed and huge bugaboo stroller on board 99% of the time
Guess what? 3 adults and 3 kids with this kind of load could go Costco shopping
Try that on any BMW or MB SUV, forget sedan
Now, that i'm on Model X, the only thing could beat it is some gigantic gas gazler. But what fun driving that barge, when you can have fun with 3 second car
Tesla features, for me as a dad, outweigh any missing features.
Being able to pre-heat/cool car from your phone is one.
Getting OTA updates regularly, so your car stays current as it ages.
Falcon wing doors is great for getting your child into carseat, especially in bad weather.
Anyone remember what it's like to put and buckle your child in a car while standing in pouring rain?
You can preheat and precool any new BMW as long as it has connected drive
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      03-02-2018, 02:16 PM   #349
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Originally Posted by DuSh View Post
Even that is not enough. You need charging stations on every current gas station - or at least 80% of them.
AND a standardized way to meter the charging so that it can be sale-able. That's easily figured out. What's not is the standardization of charging load, optimization, and repeatability from site to site across a country that has severe (and that's putting it mildly) infrastructure issues in its electrical grid as it is.

China, as many of us know, is moving to electrify its vehicles at as fast a pace as any country. That country faces many of the same issues that the U.S. does, such as use-able range and consumer cost, while dealing with much worse infrastructure inequalities, particularly in rural areas between cities old and new. Thing is, China has the capital to invest in this infrastructure to make it happen quickly. The U.S. doesn't -- heck, it's $20 trillion in debt.

That last fact is a big reason why I personally don't believe EVs will be a majority in the U.S. for at least the next generation, if not longer if fossil fuel or ICE-fuel alternatives hold out. It'll work for city dwellers. It'll work for most trucking companies. It'll work for those with per-capita income above the U.S.' median. It'll work for most of the white-collar work force. It won't work for much of the remainder.
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      03-02-2018, 02:33 PM   #350
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Originally Posted by DuSh View Post
Even that is not enough. You need charging stations on every current gas station - or at least 80% of them.
If solar panels on homes become as commonplace as air conditioners, then you can just charge at home overnight without drawing excessive power from the grid.

Also keep in mind that before the Model T, gas stations were even more scarce as charging stations are now. It took years for just dozens to pop up in major cities. The one thing that EVs have over the first ICE automobiles is that you can "fill up" your EV at home in any plug. You still had to buy fuel by the can in the early days. We seemed to have become more efficient at a distribution system for gasoline over the past century, and EV will be no different except it's already vastly superior to the ICE in it's comparative infancy.
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      03-02-2018, 03:07 PM   #351
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If solar panels on homes become as commonplace as air conditioners, then you can just charge at home overnight without drawing excessive power from the grid.

Also keep in mind that before the Model T, gas stations were even more scarce as charging stations are now. It took years for just dozens to pop up in major cities. The one thing that EVs have over the first ICE automobiles is that you can "fill up" your EV at home in any plug. You still had to buy fuel by the can in the early days. We seemed to have become more efficient at a distribution system for gasoline over the past century, and EV will be no different except it's already vastly superior to the ICE in it's comparative infancy.
Exactly. With charging at home, gas stations within cities will basically be a thing of the past.
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      03-02-2018, 03:45 PM   #352
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Yeah, why in the world would you need them at even 10% of the gas stations? Put them on interstates and that should cover it. With home charging and a 300 mile range, I would not have used a gas station in the last five years.
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