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      03-08-2018, 09:01 PM   #419
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Tesla...
Why does it bring fear?
Why is it always negative comments about the company?
Feels like everyone wants it to fail.
There is so much hate...
People are trying to find any smallest possible reason to bash it.
There's got to be a reason...
What is it?
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      03-08-2018, 10:27 PM   #420
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Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
What is it?
Fear. Fear of something different. People know ICE engines and are "used to" them. EVs represent a threat to this, even though ICE isn't going away for a long time and EVs will offer many things that ICE can't compete with, especially as the are refined and improved. It's subconscious fear about how the world will be different.
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      03-09-2018, 06:14 AM   #421
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Tesla probably will be gone. But credit where credit is due... it helped create the acceptance of EV’s.
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      03-09-2018, 08:20 AM   #422
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Tesla...
Why does it bring fear?
Why is it always negative comments about the company?
Feels like everyone wants it to fail.
There is so much hate...
People are trying to find any smallest possible reason to bash it.
There's got to be a reason...
What is it?
Tesla has come up with some incredible ideas. I don’t believe people hate Tesla. I think the problem is they’ve been disappointed by Tesla - the perceptions or realities of long wait times, quality issues, Tesla technologies causing accidents, lining Musk’s pockets instead of putting the money back into the company, distractions of his other ventures, etc. One thing is for sure - there’s nothing boring about Musk or his ventures. (Well, maybe there is ... ).
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      03-09-2018, 08:43 AM   #423
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Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Of course, those that forget history (or like to revise it) would note Elon Musk laid out his plan for the EV prior to Obama’s election (or even decision to run), much less the CAFE Standard to which you refer. BTW, CAFE was first put in place in 1975.

Also, the regulations you are referring to came out of Congress in 2007, not the Obama Presidency.
Thank you for the unnecessary history lesson. Here is an unedited section from the U.S. Department of Transportation’s mission statement that may interest you:

“Following the direction set by President Obama on May 21, 2010, NHTSA and EPA have issued joint Final Rules for Corporate Average Fuel Economy and Greenhouse Gas emissions regulations for passenger cars and light trucks built in model years 2017 and beyond, and have also developed fuel efficiency and GHG emissions regulations for medium- and heavy-duty vehicles built in model years 2014 through 2018.

Passenger Car and Light Truck Standards for 2017 and beyond

In 2012, NHTSA established final passenger car and light truck CAFE standards for model years 2017-2021, which the agency projects will require in model year 2021, on average, a combined fleet-wide fuel economy of 40.3-41.0 mpg. As part of the same rulemaking action, EPA issued GHG standards, which are harmonized with NHTSA’s fuel economy standards that are projected to require 163 grams/mile of carbon dioxide (CO2) in model year 2025. EPA will reexamine the GHG standards for model years 2022-2025 and NHTSA will set new CAFE standards for those model years in the next couple of years, based on the best available information at that time.”


Of course, the EPA reexamination mentioned in the final sentence never happened, because right before he left office Obama locked in the standards for 2025. Unless President Trump moves to rescind or modify them, they will remain in place; fortunately, he has requested that they be reviewed.
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      03-09-2018, 01:09 PM   #424
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spa2k View Post
Tesla has come up with some incredible ideas. I don’t believe people hate Tesla. I think the problem is they’ve been disappointed by Tesla - the perceptions or realities of long wait times, quality issues, Tesla technologies causing accidents, lining Musk’s pockets instead of putting the money back into the company, distractions of his other ventures, etc. One thing is for sure - there’s nothing boring about Musk or his ventures. (Well, maybe there is ... ).
I'm not disappointed with Tesla, i'm extremely happy with it.
I had more quality issues with my BMWs than Teslas. Scratch that... So far no issues with Teslas. And some minor things i had with 2013 model S were handled very well. So, I can't say Tesla has bad quality, just average. There are far more cars with worse issues.
Also, Consumer satisfaction survey put it in No1 spot of all manufacturers. Meaning, people praise the Tesla compared to others
CR rated it the best car ever tested.
Not sure who's complaining or being dissapointed...
Tech is not causing accidents, it prevents them. But you always have this group of people trying to abuse it. "that's why we cant have nice things" comes to mind.
As for Musk, guy is barely getting paid, not to mention he went almost bankrupt in 2013 trying to save the company with his personal money.
I my opinion, he's got some balls.
And he's very talented in many areas.

Last edited by AndreyATC; 03-09-2018 at 01:20 PM..
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      03-09-2018, 02:49 PM   #425
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
I'm not disappointed with Tesla, i'm extremely happy with it.
I had more quality issues with my BMWs than Teslas. Scratch that... So far no issues with Teslas. And some minor things i had with 2013 model S were handled very well. So, I can't say Tesla has bad quality, just average. There are far more cars with worse issues.
Also, Consumer satisfaction survey put it in No1 spot of all manufacturers. Meaning, people praise the Tesla compared to others
CR rated it the best car ever tested.
Not sure who's complaining or being dissapointed...
Tech is not causing accidents, it prevents them. But you always have this group of people trying to abuse it. "that's why we cant have nice things" comes to mind.
As for Musk, guy is barely getting paid, not to mention he went almost bankrupt in 2013 trying to save the company with his personal money.
I my opinion, he's got some balls.
And he's very talented in many areas.
There's many people waiting for cars that may or may not get them. Elon keeps overpromising, missing deadlines and comes up with more crazy ideas than he can fund.

I think most people want Tesla to succeed but they're not doing very nice. Selling Model S and X at a loss is not going to make the company make money. Model 3 is no where near as nice as a Model S and they can't make it fast enough to keep the competition away. Plus I see more Model S on the roads than BMWs and Mercedes here. It is the poster child for eco friendly luxury toys and the desired image of success.

I have a lot of friends who were in the first batch of Model 3 pre-orders and watch their time line get pushed away. They're looking at a 1 year+ wait for the cars from the original promised time line. Sure, someone with money and more than 1 car can wait... but a lot of Model 3 buyers are upgrading from their 10 year old Corollas, Camrys and Accords - aspirational buyers who are getting a EV for the first time because you can get a Model 3 for $30k. They need a car to get them to work and school. They can't wait.
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      03-09-2018, 03:09 PM   #426
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Originally Posted by Z K View Post
There's many people waiting for cars that may or may not get them. Elon keeps overpromising, missing deadlines and comes up with more crazy ideas than he can fund.

I think most people want Tesla to succeed but they're not doing very nice. Selling Model S and X at a loss is not going to make the company make money. Model 3 is no where near as nice as a Model S and they can't make it fast enough to keep the competition away. Plus I see more Model S on the roads than BMWs and Mercedes here. It is the poster child for eco friendly luxury toys and the desired image of success.

I have a lot of friends who were in the first batch of Model 3 pre-orders and watch their time line get pushed away. They're looking at a 1 year+ wait for the cars from the original promised time line. Sure, someone with money and more than 1 car can wait... but a lot of Model 3 buyers are upgrading from their 10 year old Corollas, Camrys and Accords - aspirational buyers who are getting a EV for the first time because you can get a Model 3 for $30k. They need a car to get them to work and school. They can't wait.
Musk still delivers on his promises.
Yes, there are delays, but not with model 3.
They met the deadline. Also, if anyone remembers, they moved the original deadline (from before unveil) two years sooner because of a huge demand. So technically, it's not overpromissed.
Why everyone keeps saying that Tesla is losing money on X and S sales. They make huge margin unlike any manufacturer.
This is what is funding Tesla, besides battery sales and now solar as well
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      03-09-2018, 04:18 PM   #427
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Tesla...
Why does it bring fear?
Why is it always negative comments about the company?
Feels like everyone wants it to fail.
There is so much hate...
People are trying to find any smallest possible reason to bash it.
There's got to be a reason...
What is it?
I used to work with Tesla a lot. I was exposed to a lot of their sales people and clients as well as a result. I used to be a fan but my opinion has shifted the past couple years.

The biggest reason has to be the fanboys who worship Elon and the cars which I feel are overrated. The powertrain and tech are seriously impressive, but aside from that they are sub-par vehicles. The interiors and build quality are among the worst for the price. And aside from acceleration their cars aren't anything remarkable to drive. The F10 5-series got (deservedly) panned for how it drove, but every Model S I drove felt the exact same: fast but heavy and numb.

To add to that, Elon has a habit of making outlandish promises for the sake of keeping raising capital and keeping the stock high. Tesla feels like a cult as its followers, at least in my experience, are overwhelmingly a bunch of techie nerds rather than real car guys. They are truly insufferable.

I also feel there's a sentiment from many of us car enthusiasts that cars are meant to be driven. This autonomous movement has its pros and cons, but its clear that Tesla is not about driving dynamics.

Last edited by Germanauto; 03-09-2018 at 04:26 PM..
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      03-09-2018, 04:59 PM   #428
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Musk still delivers on his promises.
Yes, there are delays, but not with model 3.
They met the deadline. Also, if anyone remembers, they moved the original deadline (from before unveil) two years sooner because of a huge demand. So technically, it's not overpromissed.
I was going to bow out of this conversation, but I can't do that without responding to the points above. They're absolutely inaccurate and put the lie on everything else said here that actually may favor Tesla. I'm not a Tesla hater - in fact, I'm very much intrigued by everything the company is doing, from space and shingles to semis and solar - but the BS about the cars must stop.

Just run a Google search on a phrase like "Tesla behind on Model 3 production." Here are the first five responses I just got, followed by many more in the same vein:
  1. Tesla Delays Its Model 3 Production Goals—Again | WIRED
  2. Why Tesla Model 3 Deliveries Missed the Mark | Fortune
  3. Tesla seems to be emerging from Model 3 'production hell,' but how ... ? | LA Times
  4. Tesla is still struggling with Model 3 production - Jan. 3, 2018 | Money/CNN
  5. Tesla is behind on Model 3 production - The Verge
Tesla has fallen far short of the production targets it has announced for the Model 3. Please, everyone: Watch out for the sugar in the KoolAid - it'll make you fat, diabetic and unable to think rationally.
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      03-09-2018, 05:09 PM   #429
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Tesla promised end of 2017, they were delivering them at the end of 2017
what am i missing?
https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/31/1...specs-preorder
https://www.consumerreports.org/hybr...-car-unveiled/

It's just a beginning of 2018 but it's already top selling EV
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      03-09-2018, 05:18 PM   #430
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Musk still delivers on his promises.
Yes, there are delays, but not with model 3.
They met the deadline. Also, if anyone remembers, they moved the original deadline (from before unveil) two years sooner because of a huge demand. So technically, it's not overpromissed.
Why everyone keeps saying that Tesla is losing money on X and S sales. They make huge margin unlike any manufacturer.
This is what is funding Tesla, besides battery sales and now solar as well
I have friends who work at Tesla... the headquarters is nearby me. We're all car enthusiasts and run track days together. None of them drive a Tesla.

And yes, the Model S and X very much lose money. Factor in all the operating costs and they do not turn a profit based on car sales. They make money selling emissions credits to other car companies. Model 3 is supposed to be positive profit from the start but it's also the most cost cutting they've ever done. If you go sit in one it's very obvious you're getting the build quality of a Kia from the 1990s in a $30-50k car today - it's very cheap feeling. This is no where near a Model S which turns off a lot of buyers as well.

As I said, I'm rooting for Tesla but they're not doing well currently. They keep missing deadlines and the delay means more money going to other auto companies. The true challenge is getting affordable cars to the mass market buyers in a timely manner - not producing small volume luxury vehicles for the wealthy as they have been doing.
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      03-09-2018, 05:24 PM   #431
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Tesla promised end of 2017, they were delivering them at the end of 2017
what am i missing?
https://www.theverge.com/2016/3/31/1...specs-preorder
https://www.consumerreports.org/hybr...-car-unveiled/

It's just a beginning of 2018 but it's already top selling EV
Some people got their Model 3s on time... but they were the very few. If you placed a preorder on the opening day of pre-orders, you had a production date in 2017 for delivery before the end of the year. The MAJORITY of people will instead get their car at the end of 2018 or later if you originally had a 2017 production date. That's a delay of a year for pre-order vehicles. It's very laughable. Good luck placing an order today... who knows when you'll get it.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...uld-be-drivers
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      03-09-2018, 06:54 PM   #432
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
Tesla...
Why does it bring fear?
Why is it always negative comments about the company?
Feels like everyone wants it to fail.
There is so much hate...
People are trying to find any smallest possible reason to bash it.
There's got to be a reason...
What is it?
I have nothing by respect for Elon and Tesla. I think it's fantastic and I am actually proud that an American company is coming up with these innovative ideas.

The problem I have is the execution.

If any of the major automotive manufacturers "launched" a vehicle with the kind of production issues the Model 3 is having, they'd be laughed out of the industry.
Tesla is too scattered and not focused enough. Instead of trying to develop a hypercar and a heavy duty truck, why not put the effort to getting the "bread and butter" of the company right?

Vision is one thing. Execution is an entirely different ball game. So far, it's a big let down.
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      03-09-2018, 07:28 PM   #433
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Zoom out and look at the entire picture...
Company is growing, producing more and more cars
It's also great to see new amazing battery and solar products that actually help people in many ways.
For such young manufacturer to be in the established place and still be able to hold its own, it's an accomplishment in my opinion.
There are a lot of areas of improvement, but what do you expect from startup?
Look where Tesla is after just a few years...And where it's going to be in a few more.
It's rapidly improving
And if you dont have a patience, then dont buy.
I'm sure every other EV will be better and trouble free...Because everyone else knows how to build them better than tesla
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      03-09-2018, 07:50 PM   #434
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Originally Posted by AndreyATC View Post
I'm sure every other EV will be better and trouble free...Because everyone else knows how to build them better than tesla
Exactly right, because they’re cars.
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      03-11-2018, 06:51 PM   #435
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IK6SPEED View Post
Of course, those that forget history (or like to revise it) would note Elon Musk laid out his plan for the EV prior to Obama’s election (or even decision to run), much less the CAFE Standard to which you refer. BTW, CAFE was first put in place in 1975.

Furthermore, Prius was literally the most successful car launch of the Decade and that is why the other Automotive Companies jumped in.

Also, the regulations you are referring to came out of Congress in 2007, not the Obama Presidency.
Well if we're really going to speak of automotive history, GM produced the EV1 20 years ago. It was quite successful but there was no market for it outside of California. GM developed the concept of a EV chassis for a battery in the floor more in the 1980s, which Musk adopted for Tesla's Model S.

And while were at it, TRW Automotive developed the hybrid technology in the early 1970's and tried to license it to the Big Three, but yet again there was no consumer market (and the Scientists all were telling us the Earth was cooling). Toyota eventually adopted the TRW architecture (and developed it further) for the Prius once the TRW patents were long expired.

What I find funny is all the hype around GM and how much money it was losing per car upon the debut of the Volt (Gen 1). Yet Tesla looses billions and Musk is considered a genius. GM has the most unique Hybrid in the Volt (IMO) which is far more efficient within the operating envelop it was designed for, and at the moment has the first 200+mile BEV under $40K MSRP.

Meanwhile during the past 20 years BMW was paying large fines to the EPA for missing it's CAFE numbers...
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      03-11-2018, 06:59 PM   #436
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Spa2k View Post
Thank you for the unnecessary history lesson. Here is an unedited section from the U.S. Department of Transportation’s mission statement that may interest you:

“Following the direction set by President Obama on May 21, 2010, NHTSA and EPA have issued joint Final Rules for Corporate Average Fuel Economy and Greenhouse Gas emissions regulations for passenger cars and light trucks built in model years 2017 and beyond, and have also developed fuel efficiency and GHG emissions regulations for medium- and heavy-duty vehicles built in model years 2014 through 2018.

Passenger Car and Light Truck Standards for 2017 and beyond

In 2012, NHTSA established final passenger car and light truck CAFE standards for model years 2017-2021, which the agency projects will require in model year 2021, on average, a combined fleet-wide fuel economy of 40.3-41.0 mpg. As part of the same rulemaking action, EPA issued GHG standards, which are harmonized with NHTSA’s fuel economy standards that are projected to require 163 grams/mile of carbon dioxide (CO2) in model year 2025. EPA will reexamine the GHG standards for model years 2022-2025 and NHTSA will set new CAFE standards for those model years in the next couple of years, based on the best available information at that time.”


Of course, the EPA reexamination mentioned in the final sentence never happened, because right before he left office Obama locked in the standards for 2025. Unless President Trump moves to rescind or modify them, they will remain in place; fortunately, he has requested that they be reviewed.
Allow me to educate you on CAFE standards back to the mid-70s.

You act as if this was an Obama invention.

https://www.ucsusa.org/clean-vehicle...l#.WqXCkBopChC
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      03-11-2018, 08:33 PM   #437
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I am fully aware of the history of the CAFE standards, especially from original and authoritative sources - not associations, lobbyists, “unions” or other outside groups with their own agendas - and I have spent time at an EPA/mileage testing facility at one of the U.S. auto manufacturers in Detroit. References to Obama and the CAFE standards are relevant and included here only because he is the one who pushed for the 2025 standards that forced the manufacturers to accelerate their efforts on EV development. The CAFE history prior to that time has no importance to this discussion.
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      03-11-2018, 11:21 PM   #438
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IMO, the increase in mileage from about 1995-2015 has been nothing short of dramatic, especially 2000-2015. Now, ~250-300hp V6s and turbo-4s of similar TQ getting 32-36mpg highway regularly. I remember some of the vehicles we owned back in the mid 1990s that were just horrid.

I expect to see a lot of hybrid-boost drives soon like Mercedes is now doing, most people only need "extra HP" to accelerate in a straight line for a short period, either to reach a certain speed or just do the "take off" thing for a few seconds.
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      03-12-2018, 05:32 AM   #439
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Arguing that a BMW has a luxurious interior is amusing. BMW does a lot of things well, but they always have sub standard interiors.
I tend to disagree. My previous e90 328i was one of the best interior quality you can find even today. Seriously even today if you sit and touch materials in e90 - they are a notch above what you can find in entry level modern luxury cars. Tesla is not even close. My current x5 50i is same. X5M is next level with it's leather dash trim - you need to sit and touch and drive and feel. The only other brand that has similar experience is RR and some of Audi (not all models tho). I agree that some BMW modern cars have plastics and it looks cheap - which is surprising as BMW is the only one (if i'm not mistaken who has their own carbon fiber factory (even other brands buy CF from BMW). And yet they can't even implement it in their own models. So yes, there are pluses and minuses.
Compared to what Audi was doing at the time of the E90, I find that hard to believe. Maybe it's subjective, but Audi has BMW beat in interiors for quite awhile.
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      03-12-2018, 08:40 AM   #440
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I think the Tesla ergonomics model of "clean" design with no extra buttons, switches, handles, clutter, protrusions, etc., really confuses some people. The materials in an S are nice, but there aren't all sorts of "things" jutting out. Maybe those things make some people feel better?
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