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      11-22-2021, 11:50 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by RM7 View Post
This is exactly why the Challenger and Mustang are better sellers than the Camaro. The Camaro is a better chassis and when equipped with the top powertrains, an extremely capable car, around a track, whatever...but most of the sales are not V8 1LEs, ZL1s, most of the sales are the lesser V6 and I4 cars. And at the lesser engine trims, you'd be stupid to buy the Camaro with it's worse visibility and ergonomics over the easier-to-live-with competition. Sure, a V6 camaro still has a good chassis, but people at the lower price-point aren't going for maximum performance anymore and volume sales easily trump a better performing car for the bottom line. 99% of the people buying a car aren't going for maximum performance.
It's all about image. Formerly FCA knew that the people who buy muscle cars know nothing about driving dynamics and handling, and would be content driving a big fat American sedan if they didn't desire a mean looking 2-door car. They invested in what matters: marketing, practicality, sound, etc.

GM tried to go full sports car. But nobody in this segment cares about that. I don't even think the Camaro's biggest problem is its lack of visibility or it being too sporty to drive, it's the fact that nobody even remembers it exists.

The Challenger is very present in popular culture, everybody including non-car people know what it is. The Camaro? It hasn't registered in anybody's mind for years.
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      11-23-2021, 07:40 AM   #24
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What a douche
But is he wrong?
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      11-23-2021, 08:46 AM   #25
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Originally Posted by RM7 View Post
Americans basically are begging for this and have been since forever, when all you care about is quarter mile and 0-60...well here is something that will deliver the ultimate in straight-line acceleration. You are welcome.
Um....?

You high?
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      11-23-2021, 08:57 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
It's all about image. Formerly FCA knew that the people who buy muscle cars know nothing about driving dynamics and handling, and would be content driving a big fat American sedan if they didn't desire a mean looking 2-door car. They invested in what matters: marketing, practicality, sound, etc.

GM tried to go full sports car. But nobody in this segment cares about that. I don't even think the Camaro's biggest problem is its lack of visibility or it being too sporty to drive, it's the fact that nobody even remembers it exists.

The Challenger is very present in popular culture, everybody including non-car people know what it is. The Camaro? It hasn't registered in anybody's mind for years.
I'll go out on a limb a say the Charger is hands down Dodges most successful model and sales wise the Charger Rt, SRT, Hellcat, ect..... all blow the 2 door cars out of the water.

And yes.... the Camaro has been irrelevant for years.
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      11-23-2021, 09:15 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by nerdogray View Post
EV muscle car. Hilarious.
^^^ This!

There's more to a "muscle car" than 0-60 acceleration times. In this modern day and age, there are numerous cars that will flat out embarrass a muscle car in a drag race or most any other contest. Hell, my M550i will embarrass my Cobra in exactly the same way, but I don't consider my BMW a muscle car, while I absolutely do include the Cobra in that categorization.

In my mind, the term muscle car is truly limited to the era of the 1960s-to early 1970s. It implies a big engine with loud exhaust and represents the peak of power for that era. It usually also meant radio delete plates, manual transmissions, and in most (not all) cases, some form of appearance package that uniquely identified the car as something to behold.

I think the closest examples we have today are in the Dodge lineup with the SRT and Hellcat cars. Sure GM's Corvette could be in that group, but GM is really pushing the Corvette more toward the Exotic rather than muscle car designation. Ford has a couple of Mustang models that come to mind as well.

Even the Japanese "hot rods" have a unique classification as "tuners" or "EVOs". Let the EVs of this era come up with their own classification!

Last edited by dscabra; 11-23-2021 at 09:45 AM..
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      11-23-2021, 09:19 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
No. Meaning all the people that are going to run out of battery juice sitting on the side of the freaking road. It’s going to be catastrophic.
I appreciate this dystopian view, but its the wrong dystopia.

IMO this is the plan - I work for the company that is enabling it through massive technological capability in autonomous driving. I see the branded rigs up and down I45 in Texas every month, learning. You may have seen the minivans running around Socal, and Arizona...Nuff said.

Soon (in our lifetime), private citizens will not own cars. Period. They will be too expensive to. The resources to build them will be too scarce, and the operating expense will lock most people out of the market. Its actually not a bad idea, when you consider the utilization rates of a depreciating asset. Car shares are a much more efficient way of solving for transportation needs... Auto manufacturers know this. Automobiles are not following moores law, the tech should be getting cheaper, but it isnt, its getting more expensive.

How will this happen? Easy, by making replacement cost too high, by making gasoline too expensive, the private citizen will attrition out of the market. When Gas is $25/Gallon, a $75 Autonomous taxi ride will be cost effective for commuting to work, especially because the most expensive part (the human driver) has been removed.

EVs are just one leg of the future of transportation stool...Enjoy your car while you can, but eventually, you will be unable to repair it, and off it will go forever....
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      11-23-2021, 09:22 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by dscabra View Post
^^^ This!

There's more to a "muscle car" that 0-60 acceleration times. In this modern day and age, there are numerous cars that will flat out embarrass a muscle car in a drag race or most any other contest. Hell, my M550i will embarrass my Cobra in exactly the same way, but I don't consider my BMW a muscle car, which I absolutely do include the Cobra in that categorization.

In my mind, the term muscle car is truly limited to the era of the 1960s-to early 1970s. It implies a big engine with loud exhaust and represents the peak of power for that era. It usually also meant radio delete plates, manual transmissions, and in most (not all) cases, some form of appearance package that uniquely identified the car as something to behold.

I think the closest examples we have today are in the Dodge lineup with the SRT and Hellcat cars. Sure GM's Corvette could be in that group, but GM is really pushing the Corvette more toward the Exotic rather than muscle car designation. Ford has a couple of Mustang models that come to mind as well.

Even the Japanese "hot rods" have a unique classification as "tuners" or "EVOs". Let the EVs of this era come up with their own classification!
I like this guy!

Logic, common sense, and a free thinker!

Then again you're someone speaking from experience such as myself and largely most the EV pushers of this thread and forum have never experienced raw power a large displacement V8 that's boosted can create.

The rawness is absolutely intoxicating and regardless of ET the general feel of a the front tires wanting to make space for air under the tires is just funny.
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      11-23-2021, 09:22 AM   #30
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Originally Posted by Sedoy View Post
Don't freak out. The average American commutes like 16 miles/day and if charged at home you always leave with full (or at least 80%) battery. People without home charges will be able to charge at work, public places, groceries shops etc. Plus post pandemic time everybody sitting home ordering sh!t from Amazon and get their food delivered. Also, it will probably take the industry many years to convert everything to electric. We will be ok.
This argument can be used to justify even the most exotic of cars going EV. Not all cars are created to be sensible commuters. Some are purposely engineered to spark emotion in a driver. Sound and vibration (e.g. touch/feel) are two innate human sensory inputs which will disappear with full electrification. Under the latter's umbrella you can also throw in the feeling of changing your own gears and the sensation of gears jerking. All these little things add up.

Sure I'm curious to see how Dodge plans to make their EV muscle cars unique as they claim. But I also think that ICE variants should continue to live on for as long as it's possible.
They will live for awhile!! If you are 40 years old you will never be forced to have an EV. There is no chance there will be enough charging stations across our great country😉 to have every person on electric cars. Our government can't get shit done as it is. So a lot of you "muscle car dudes" can relax. We will all be dead before this takes over. Happy Tuesday
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      11-23-2021, 09:37 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by beachBmmr View Post
I appreciate this dystopian view, but its the wrong dystopia.

IMO this is the plan - I work for the company that is enabling it through massive technological capability in autonomous driving. I see the branded rigs up and down I45 in Texas every month, learning. You may have seen the minivans running around Socal, and Arizona...Nuff said.

Soon (in our lifetime), private citizens will not own cars. Period. They will be too expensive to. The resources to build them will be too scarce, and the operating expense will lock most people out of the market. Its actually not a bad idea, when you consider the utilization rates of a depreciating asset. Car shares are a much more efficient way of solving for transportation needs... Auto manufacturers know this. Automobiles are not following moores law, the tech should be getting cheaper, but it isnt, its getting more expensive.

How will this happen? Easy, by making replacement cost too high, by making gasoline too expensive, the private citizen will attrition out of the market. When Gas is $25/Gallon, a $75 Autonomous taxi ride will be cost effective for commuting to work, especially because the most expensive part (the human driver) has been removed.

EVs are just one leg of the future of transportation stool...Enjoy your car while you can, but eventually, you will be unable to repair it, and off it will go forever....
Please don’t take this the wrong way as I give you my word of honor I do not mean it as an insult. For you to have said the things you said in this post there’s absolutely no way in the world you grew up in America. And if you did then you were extremely isolated. Americans will never give up their cars. Ever. Not this generation anyway. Perhaps 100 years from now I don’t know but certainly not now. Not without a fight anyway. I get that you believe what you believe but you absolutely don’t have any clue about the American psyche. If you did you most certainly wouldn’t hold the opinion you have.

Now let’s address what you wrote. In order for you to have that opinion you must firmly believe in global warming and that we are all going to die if we don’t do the things you stated. I would like to know from you or anyone else how we are going to get charging stations built all throughout the entire United States to the capacity that can handle cars pulling up to them and staying there for an hour at a time. Please lay out your plan and timeline for that. Because without that then my prediction of cars running out of juice stranded on the side of the road will absolutely come true.
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      11-23-2021, 09:44 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by SickGTR View Post
They will live for awhile!! If you are 40 years old you will never be forced to have an EV. There is no chance there will be enough charging stations across our great country😉 to have every person on electric cars. Our government can't get shit done as it is. So a lot of you "muscle car dudes" can relax. We will all be dead before this takes over. Happy Tuesday
I think the push for EVs by governments and automakers is also about total control of the population. Its already started on ICE cars with speed limiters, rev limiters etc but you can only do so much with ICE. I think new generation of politicians that are elected will ban all ICE cars new and used. They may allow them to exist in museums etc. This will probably happen sooner than most ppl think.

The EVs are much easier to control as they all can be updated with over-air updates. All the Tesla cars report back to the company. New generation of ppl are so accustomed to this with iphone and social media, but in the future this can be very dangerous. I think we take for granted the freedom we have to hop in a car and just drive anywhere.
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      11-23-2021, 09:48 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Bimmersandmopars View Post
I like this guy!

Logic, common sense, and a free thinker!

Then again you're someone speaking from experience such as myself and largely most the EV pushers of this thread and forum have never experienced raw power a large displacement V8 that's boosted can create.

The rawness is absolutely intoxicating and regardless of ET the general feel of a the front tires wanting to make space for air under the tires is just funny.
I love this post from another forum I read frequently:

Driving a Cobra Replica

"If you want to just gas and go, and never have to worry about replacing an alternator, or snuggling down the header bolts, or getting a wet leg driving in a rainstorm, or learning how to set your carb float level, or driving in traffic on a warm winter day with "winter gas" in the tank, get a Corvette. "

With a Cobra Replica you have to remind yourself that you are driving a hand made race car on the street. There is no compromise for anything other than pure speed. These cars are brutal and unforgiving, with all the refinement of a medieval battle ax. Like being in a relationship with an exotic dancer, you can never take anything for granted. These cars don't have millions of miles of testing refinement before you get yours. For any trip longer than an hour, you need earplugs, and goggles, and carry Advil and eye drops. You will need to learn to "read" the clouds for rain in your path, and have experience in un-wrapping your frozen fingers from the MotoLita. You will experience lady passengers "wetting" the passenger seat when you merge into traffic from an on ramp, and then nearly burn their calf getting out of the car.

You will have all the invisibility of a burning Hindenburg, and flee from underground parking lots when uncountable car alarms are screaming your departure. When you shop, you will remind yourself that these cars get more attention than a dead body in a parking lot.

With a power to weight ratio better than almost every supercar, you will find your 1/4 mile times traction rather than power limited. On the other hand, when you stage, out of the corner of your helmet's visor you will see almost the entire audience lining up at the fence, most with cameras up. If you track on a road course with a Porsche club, owners of expensive German machines will come to the fence to watch you power out in smoking oversteer. You won't even try to start your engine in the garage, but push it out onto the driveway, else your loyal watch dog will croak from the exhaust fumes. If you idle next to other "sports" cars at a traffic light, by the green, their girlfriend will be coughing green phlegm into her hanky, yelling at her date to just go! When you refuel, you might as well prop the "bonnet" open, because you are going to have to show your motor to just about every other guy there. When you order your wings at Hooters, your waitress will whisper in your ear "take me for a ride." When you stop at the red light, the girl in the convertible next to you will invite you to "take my top off too."

When you slowly pass a troop of Harley riders, they will look over and give you thumbs up. When you want to ease out into traffic, other cars will immediately pause to let you go ahead of them. When your engine has its hot, crackling, intimidating exhaust side-pipe aimed right at the flank of the GTO, or the Z28, your exhaust pulsation's slowly unscrewing his lug nuts, the other car will remain motionless, as if the slightest quiver of his car will cause your car to stomp it dead. When you leave it open in a parking lot, and come back to find your sunglasses and cell phone still sitting on the tunnel, it is because your car has sullenly warned those who came over to admire it "touch me and I will rise up here and kill you dead."

When you put that tiny silver key into the ignition, and begin your start countdown, your car will whisper "take me for granted, and I will kill you."


When other drivers just hop in and snap up their belts while backing out of their parking space, you will still have two more minutes before you even get all the Simpson's properly on and snugged down. Pulling up in a Cobra Replica is like landing an F4U at an ultra-lite convention.

In summary, very, very few drivers want this kind of attention, or can tolerate all that a formidable Cobra Replica demands. These cars are intolerant mistresses.

But remember, there will come a day when you have to hang up your car keys for the last time. And perhaps you want to say then "I did it."
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      11-23-2021, 09:49 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
It's all about image. Formerly FCA knew that the people who buy muscle cars know nothing about driving dynamics and handling, and would be content driving a big fat American sedan if they didn't desire a mean looking 2-door car. They invested in what matters: marketing, practicality, sound, etc.

GM tried to go full sports car. But nobody in this segment cares about that. I don't even think the Camaro's biggest problem is its lack of visibility or it being too sporty to drive, it's the fact that nobody even remembers it exists.

The Challenger is very present in popular culture, everybody including non-car people know what it is. The Camaro? It hasn't registered in anybody's mind for years.
The Camaro tanked in sales only when the new hideous design came out. The original Camaro from 2010s was a huge success and outsold Challenger and even Mustang I believe. Then GM massacred the front end and no amount of performance could save it.
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      11-23-2021, 10:16 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by beachBmmr View Post
I appreciate this dystopian view, but its the wrong dystopia.

IMO this is the plan - I work for the company that is enabling it through massive technological capability in autonomous driving. I see the branded rigs up and down I45 in Texas every month, learning. You may have seen the minivans running around Socal, and Arizona...Nuff said.

Soon (in our lifetime), private citizens will not own cars. Period. They will be too expensive to. The resources to build them will be too scarce, and the operating expense will lock most people out of the market. Its actually not a bad idea, when you consider the utilization rates of a depreciating asset. Car shares are a much more efficient way of solving for transportation needs... Auto manufacturers know this. Automobiles are not following moores law, the tech should be getting cheaper, but it isnt, its getting more expensive.

How will this happen? Easy, by making replacement cost too high, by making gasoline too expensive, the private citizen will attrition out of the market. When Gas is $25/Gallon, a $75 Autonomous taxi ride will be cost effective for commuting to work, especially because the most expensive part (the human driver) has been removed.

EVs are just one leg of the future of transportation stool...Enjoy your car while you can, but eventually, you will be unable to repair it, and off it will go forever....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
Please don’t take this the wrong way as I give you my word of honor I do not mean it as an insult. For you to have said the things you said in this post there’s absolutely no way in the world you grew up in America. And if you did then you were extremely isolated. Americans will never give up their cars. Ever. Not this generation anyway. Perhaps 100 years from now I don’t know but certainly not now. Not without a fight anyway. I get that you believe what you believe but you absolutely don’t have any clue about the American psyche. If you did you most certainly wouldn’t hold the opinion you have.

Now let’s address what you wrote. In order for you to have that opinion you must firmly believe in global warming and that we are all going to die if we don’t do the things you stated. I would like to know from you or anyone else how we are going to get charging stations built all throughout the entire United States to the capacity that can handle cars pulling up to them and staying there for an hour at a time. Please lay out your plan and timeline for that. Because without that then my prediction of cars running out of juice stranded on the side of the road will absolutely come true.
I work for one of the big companies (rhymes with M&M). Unfortunately, what beachBmmr says is true. Companies are trying to move forward with this approach. Is it possible/feasible? Doesn't matter. There is more stable revenue there, so that's the direction they're heading. I'm in my late 20's and am an outlier in my generation in regards to my enthusiasm and passion for automobiles (be they EV or ICE). The generation(s) after me could not care less. Many don't even have driver's license or care to get them. These are future "customers" that automakers will have to cater to. It is a bleak future, and I try not to think about it too much. I'm just glad that I was able to pick up one of my attainable dream cars this year and I plan to drive it until it's no longer feasible.
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      11-23-2021, 10:22 AM   #36
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Originally Posted by beachBmmr View Post
I appreciate this dystopian view, but its the wrong dystopia.

IMO this is the plan - I work for the company that is enabling it through massive technological capability in autonomous driving. I see the branded rigs up and down I45 in Texas every month, learning. You may have seen the minivans running around Socal, and Arizona...Nuff said.

Soon (in our lifetime), private citizens will not own cars. Period. They will be too expensive to. The resources to build them will be too scarce, and the operating expense will lock most people out of the market. Its actually not a bad idea, when you consider the utilization rates of a depreciating asset. Car shares are a much more efficient way of solving for transportation needs... Auto manufacturers know this. Automobiles are not following moores law, the tech should be getting cheaper, but it isnt, its getting more expensive.

How will this happen? Easy, by making replacement cost too high, by making gasoline too expensive, the private citizen will attrition out of the market. When Gas is $25/Gallon, a $75 Autonomous taxi ride will be cost effective for commuting to work, especially because the most expensive part (the human driver) has been removed.

EVs are just one leg of the future of transportation stool...Enjoy your car while you can, but eventually, you will be unable to repair it, and off it will go forever....
I love your magical way of thinking, except it couldn't be farther from the truth.

Take note...

Resources make the world economy tick....

Not tech.

To better expand on this just search GDP based on country and seek to find that countries Resources and production level.

To better see how tech has significant shortfalls that are definite..... chip shortages case and point.

Tech is a by product or oil and oils success.

Tech is cool to an extent, but that's where it stops.
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      11-23-2021, 10:27 AM   #37
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There is no way in hell society will last long enough for any idealistic vision of EV's to take hold. At its root, EV is not being driven by some alruistic pursuit of a cleaner planet or environmental responsibility. It's about money and ultimately, power. That's it. Now certainly there are many of those that do champion the transition to EV that are being driven by more actual ideals. But in the end it won't make a difference... at all. We will all be steamrolled. ICE engines are a scapegoat used to leverage more power from a society too fractured to fight back. It is also an absolute absurdity that we are to uproot everything for truly minimal long-term gain when you have one country that will never participate and is also the leading cause of all emissions and pollution... not to mention being utterly morally bankrupt. I guess that's my Asian hate talking, though... because that's supposedly a thing, too. EV's are nothing but a farce, taken up as shield and sword by a generation that loves to proclaim its virtue while having not a single shred of wisdom to know what they are really asking or doing.
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      11-23-2021, 10:37 AM   #38
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Originally Posted by Patton250 View Post
Please don’t take this the wrong way as I give you my word of honor I do not mean it as an insult. For you to have said the things you said in this post there’s absolutely no way in the world you grew up in America. And if you did then you were extremely isolated. Americans will never give up their cars. Ever. Not this generation anyway. Perhaps 100 years from now I don’t know but certainly not now. Not without a fight anyway. I get that you believe what you believe but you absolutely don’t have any clue about the American psyche. If you did you most certainly wouldn’t hold the opinion you have.

Now let’s address what you wrote. In order for you to have that opinion you must firmly believe in global warming and that we are all going to die if we don’t do the things you stated. I would like to know from you or anyone else how we are going to get charging stations built all throughout the entire United States to the capacity that can handle cars pulling up to them and staying there for an hour at a time. Please lay out your plan and timeline for that. Because without that then my prediction of cars running out of juice stranded on the side of the road will absolutely come true.
No offense taken, but you are making several wrong assumptions.

1. I am born and raised in america, red blooded meat eating, gun toting american.
2. Just cause I see this doesnt mean I like it.
3. EVs are not environmentally friendly. Slave labor mined rare earth elements, fossil fueled electric generation
4. I dont believe in global warming, its a scam to control industrial output and drive down all labor costs to the lowest common denometer.

I am petrochemical addict, and would not voluntarily submit to this, however consider the impact of spark plugs becoming regulated, or priced out of reach, or some other very elemental part of an ICE becoming unobtainable. Thats how this will be implemented.. Global _Fill_in_the_blank shortage/rationing special approval needed...
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      11-23-2021, 10:39 AM   #39
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Originally Posted by nerdogray View Post
There is no way in hell society will last long enough for any idealistic vision of EV's to take hold. At its root, EV is not being driven by some alruistic pursuit of a cleaner planet or environmental responsibility. It's about money and ultimately, power. That's it. Now certainly there are many of those that do champion the transition to EV that are being driven by more actual ideals. But in the end it won't make a difference... at all. We will all be steamrolled. ICE engines are a scapegoat used to leverage more power from a society too fractured to fight back. It is also an absolute absurdity that we are to uproot everything for truly minimal long-term gain when you have one country that will never participate and is also the leading cause of all emissions and pollution... not to mention being utterly morally bankrupt. I guess that's my Asian hate talking, though... because that's supposedly a thing, too. EV's are nothing but a farce, taken up as shield and sword by a generation that loves to proclaim its virtue while having not a single shred of wisdom to know what they are really asking or doing.

This guy gets it..Not a fan of Klaus Schwab either I assume...I digress..
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      11-23-2021, 10:42 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by Bimmersandmopars View Post
I love your magical way of thinking, except it couldn't be farther from the truth.

Take note...

Resources make the world economy tick....

Not tech.

To better expand on this just search GDP based on country and seek to find that countries Resources and production level.

To better see how tech has significant shortfalls that are definite..... chip shortages case and point.

Tech is a by product or oil and oils success.

Tech is cool to an extent, but that's where it stops.
I very much understand that resources control everything. Which is why instead of two ICE cars in every driveway, you wont see two EVs. You will see no EVs and about 1/1000th of the volume on roads as individual auto ownership evaporates...Of course we dont have the resources to produce an EV fleet equal in size to ICEs. Thats not the plan.
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      11-23-2021, 10:44 AM   #41
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US passenger cars make up about 2 1/2% of worldwide GHG emissions. Granted in a locality with poor air quality they will help, but we are not saving the planet by going EV. And some of that saving of ghg will be offset by the electricity generation needed to charge (of course we all want a nuclear plant in our area so this is a moot point).

Autonomous vehicles powered by a battery? Give me a bus pass.
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      11-23-2021, 10:58 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gjm120 View Post
US passenger cars make up about 2 1/2% of worldwide GHG emissions. Granted in a locality with poor air quality they will help, but we are not saving the planet by going EV. And some of that saving of ghg will be offset by the electricity generation needed to charge (of course we all want a nuclear plant in our area so this is a moot point).

Autonomous vehicles powered by a battery? Give me a bus pass.
The bus will be an option too. Again, I think we can all realize that passenger cars going to EV powertrains is not about curbing emissions, it's about money. We are a few years away from companies saying the quiet part out-loud (no private ownership, autonomous vehicles, etc.).
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      11-23-2021, 11:25 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Cos270 View Post
The bus will be an option too. Again, I think we can all realize that passenger cars going to EV powertrains is not about curbing emissions, it's about money. We are a few years away from companies saying the quiet part out-loud (no private ownership, autonomous vehicles, etc.).
Yes it is about money and feeling good about doing the right thing. We average about 24 mpg in the US. Raise that to 34 and gaso consumption drops to about 6 mln b/d. When the US normal that was around 8.6 mmb/d. Big drop and would further lower the relatively small amount of worldwide ghg's our cars put out.

But we all want to drive a tank to the supermarket and office that have low 0-60 times so here come the EV's. And the gov't will hand money out to make it happen.

Having said all that, for running around locally I'd consider an EV for a second vehicle. It would make sense economically. I don't know how much of that economic sense is because of subsidies (which includes lack of a gaso/road tax).
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      11-23-2021, 11:32 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by dscabra View Post
^^^ This!

There's more to a "muscle car" than 0-60 acceleration times.
No, that's literally what muscle cars are all about.
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