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      08-06-2014, 04:58 PM   #265
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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
this kind of applies to the arab world in general. in the un partition, Palestinian arabs voiced their disapproval and all the arab nations voted against it, but it still passed. it's like their voices were drowned out by countries whose citizens don't live anywhere near the middle east.
their voice wasnt drowned out, it was put to a vote and it passed
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      08-06-2014, 04:59 PM   #266
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I'm not saying that they have the right to murder anyone, but I can understand why they would want to.
i apologize, i didnt word it correctly.

does it justify murder?
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      08-06-2014, 05:09 PM   #267
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
their voice wasnt drowned out, it was put to a vote and it passed
it was drowned out by votes from countries who aren't in the middle east. to me, I would think that the opinions of the land's inhabitants should carry more weight. how do you expect a whole population to react when you enforce something against their will?

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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
i apologize, i didnt word it correctly.

does it justify murder?
it does to them. I don't think theres ever going to be peace there.
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      08-06-2014, 05:40 PM   #268
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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
it was drowned out by votes from countries who aren't in the middle east. to me, I would think that the opinions of the land's inhabitants should carry more weight. how do you expect a whole population to react when you enforce something against their will?
The partition plan was imposed by the western countries partially to compensate jews for the holocaust, partially because they were antisemitic and wanted their own jews to emigrate away, and partially because they wanted a client state that will help them keep control of the middle east.

12 out of 14 European and western states supported the partition (except for abstaining Britain and the Greek negative vote). Meanwhile, only 21 out of 42 non-western states supported the partition, with the remaining votes in oppositon or abstention. Since General Assembly resolutions require 66% of the vote to pass, it is clear that the only reason the partition was implemented was due to the desires of the west.

That doesn't even take into account the undemocratic nature of the UN at the time. For example, tiny Europe gets 14 votes. Meanwhile, the much bigger and more populated Africa at the time had a mere 4 votes in total (Egypt, S. Africa, ethiopia, liberia). Arab countries like Algeria, Morocco, LIbya, Tunisia, Sudan, Somalia did not have membership yet.
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      08-06-2014, 09:24 PM   #269
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Originally Posted by Petros
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
straight from unrwa

http://www.unrwa.org/newsroom/press-...ne-its-schools

Today, in the course of the regular inspection of its premises, UNRWA discovered rockets hidden in a VACANT school in the Gaza Strip.
Notice the part I emphasized
In the most densely populated place on earth they have a vacant school? Doubtful.
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      08-06-2014, 11:21 PM   #270
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The problem with the creation of Israel is the two populations are too enmeshed, and since they see themselves so seperately the creation of one state for one people where there are two peoples is not going to work, unless you bulldozed everybody away in the start, now you just have neigbour on neighbour guerilla warfare.

Now its looking like a two-state solution is not good, because they would still elect Hamas as the people seem incapable of self-governance.. they would just descend into a hodgepodge of religious fever like everywhere else in the middle east. And Israel would still have to kick their ass - but can't without bulldozing over people because they are so close and enmeshed.

The 'fairest' solution is a united Israel/Palestine where the two majorities hold a gun to each other's neck - but Israel would never give up their power.
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      08-07-2014, 08:48 AM   #271
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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Made your way over too? Nice to see you making the rounds, keep up the good work...the internet car forum is always in need of more propaganda artists.

To the OP, why did you start this thread? We already have one that covers this exact topic. If you really want to play the "Israelis are war criminals" tune, there is plenty of space on the other thread.

It seems we have some syndrome going on here.
Well if you'd pull your head out of your ass and actually read the topic you would figure out this thread was originally in the UK forum for the british to discuss. Then the moderators moved it here recently.
This is still a redundant thread, and the fact that it started on a UK forum is somewhat disconcerting seeing as there are quite a bit of extremist Islamists who come from there.

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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Hamas has every right to defend themselves and their land from ILLEGAL occupation. But I guess in your warped mind god gave the land to a bunch of european zionists so the palestinians should just shut up and leave. Maybe you should give your own home to the zionists if you believe in their cause so much.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation...which you refuse to acknowledge. They were democratically elected, but they engage in illegal activities nonetheless. For sake of argument let's say they have the right to defend themselves from Israeli attacks...How does lobbing rockets at Israeli citizens or infiltrating Israel to kill/kidnap civilians qualify as defending themselves?

I can understand engaging Israeli military forces in direct or indirect conflict, but how do you justify the latter two actions?

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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
The partition plan was imposed by the western countries partially to compensate jews for the holocaust, partially because they were antisemitic and wanted their own jews to emigrate away, and partially because they wanted a client state that will help them keep control of the middle east.

12 out of 14 European and western states supported the partition (except for abstaining Britain and the Greek negative vote). Meanwhile, only 21 out of 42 non-western states supported the partition, with the remaining votes in oppositon or abstention. Since General Assembly resolutions require 66% of the vote to pass, it is clear that the only reason the partition was implemented was due to the desires of the west.

That doesn't even take into account the undemocratic nature of the UN at the time. For example, tiny Europe gets 14 votes. Meanwhile, the much bigger and more populated Africa at the time had a mere 4 votes in total (Egypt, S. Africa, ethiopia, liberia). Arab countries like Algeria, Morocco, LIbya, Tunisia, Sudan, Somalia did not have membership yet.
Dude, no one cares!! We can all read history ourselves so we don't need you acting as a wannabe teacher. We know how Israel was formed....we know the formation was controversial and violent in some instances....we know most of the Arab world disapproved of it and many still do...what does any of that have to do with the current situation and the drive for peace?

The stuff you are talking about is water under a bridge...we can't change the past..we can only focus on the future. Have you seen the Egyptian-brokered peace between Hamas and Israel? Have you heard of Hamas' willingness to allow the Palestinian authority from the West Bank to take over governance? Have you read how targeted blockades by Israel and Egypt (your native country right?) were squeezing Hamas financially and likely set the stage for this round of violence?

These are topics worthy of discussion....The BS you constantly bring up, besides being largely inaccurate or biased, has very little to do with a possible peace solution for Israel and Palestine.

The fact that you and your "UK" buddies have hardly anything to say about peace or possible ways ahead for a viable two-state solution says volumes about your stance on the whole issue. Instead you want to focus on Israel's "illegal" formation that happened half a century ago.

Last edited by Dalko43; 08-07-2014 at 08:54 AM..
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      08-07-2014, 10:09 AM   #272
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
This is still a redundant thread, and the fact that it started on a UK forum is somewhat disconcerting seeing as there are quite a bit of extremist Islamists who come from there.
I'm glad that you find it disconcerting. That means there is good progress being made in educating the UK public.



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Hamas is a terrorist organisation...
Says who? The israelis and their western sponsors? Yeah, that's a very neutral and credible opinion indeed
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They were democratically elected, but they engage in illegal activities nonetheless.
What "illegal" activities? Israel has been engaging in illegal activities for over half a century, invading and occupying, annexing land that doesnt belong to them, kicking people out of their homes, ethnic cleansing, building settlements, massacring civilians, using banned weapons, building apartheid wall, etc..... There is no country in more violation of UN resolutions and international law than Israel.
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For sake of argument let's say they have the right to defend themselves from Israeli attacks...How does lobbing rockets at Israeli citizens or infiltrating Israel to kill/kidnap civilians qualify as defending themselves?
How does israel bombing kids on the beach, cafes where people are watching soccer, schools, hospitals, TV stations, journalists, UN shelters, universities, ambulances, power generation stations qualify as self defense?

Quote:
I can understand engaging Israeli military forces in direct or indirect conflict, but how do you justify the latter two actions?
When you can justify bombing ambulances, TV stations, hospitals, UN shelters, kids making sand castles on a beach, people smoking shisha and watching soccer, universities, schools, etc, then I'll bother to indulge you and justify the rocket firing.



Quote:
Dude, no one cares!! We can all read history ourselves so we don't need you acting as a wannabe teacher.
I was answering another post by another person in a conversation that didn't involve you. So if you don't care, kindly butt out and make yourself scarce.
Quote:
We know how Israel was formed....we know the formation was controversial and violent in some instances....we know most of the Arab world disapproved of it and many still do...what does any of that have to do with the current situation and the drive for peace?
Because many of the zionists still keep spreading propaganda that Palestinians have no claim to the land, that Israel is entitled to all the west bank, and the Palestinians are "recent" immigrants from other Arab countries. Just read a couple of posts ago with bkM3 claming there's no such thing as Palestine or Palestinians

Any future drive towards a peace that's actually sustainable must be based on acknowledging the rights of the Palestinians. Just like how peace was brought into post apartheid S. Africa by acknowledging the legitimate grievances of the black citizens, or how peace was brought to the US by ending the discrimination and oppression of the blacks.

Quote:
The stuff you are talking about is water under a bridge...we can't change the past..we can only focus on the future.
So how come your Israeli darlings are still to this very day chasing Nazi war criminals who are mostly 80 and 90 year old men on their deathbed?

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Have you seen the Egyptian-brokered peace between Hamas and Israel?
They're still negotiating. No final agreement yet.
Quote:
Have you heard of Hamas' willingness to allow the Palestinian authority from the West Bank to take over governance?
Yes, the unity government. The same government Netanyahu tried to incite the west to unrecognize. In fact, one of the reasons why the israelis attacked Gaza was to destroy this unity government. It definitely wasn't because of 3 dead settlers or a bunch of rocket fire like they led you to believe.
Quote:
Have you read how targeted blockades by Israel and Egypt (your native country right?) were squeezing Hamas financially and likely set the stage for this round of violence?
Yes, and I linked an article to that on my facebook page. And yes, I'm a very harsh critic of the Sisi military regime and their collaboration with the israelis.

Quote:
These are topics worthy of discussion....The BS you constantly bring up, besides being largely inaccurate or biased, has very little to do with a possible peace solution for Israel and Palestine.
Well then, Einstein, why don't you lead by example and explain to us how you would suggest solving the conflict. Because all you ever do is rant and post inaccurate biased BS, just like you accuse me of doing. And for the record, I think the only viable long term solution is one binational Arab-Jewish state in all of Palestine between the jordan river and the mediterranean sea. I believe I already stated that once or twice before.

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The fact that you and your "UK" buddies have hardly anything to say about peace or possible ways ahead for a viable two-state solution says volumes about your stance on the whole issue.
There's no "viable" 2 state solution right now. The 2 state solution died the moment Netanyahu refuse to freeze (let alone dismantle) settlements to salvage the Kerry peace talks and help save the reputation of Mahmoud Abbas (who in case you've forgotten is a "pacifist" who doesn't fire rockets, dig tunnels, or capture Israelis).
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      08-07-2014, 11:59 AM   #273
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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
I'm glad that you find it disconcerting. That means there is good progress being made in educating the UK public.
You think young men from the UK decapitating British soldiers in the streets of London and going off to foreign countries to conduct terrorism is a result of better "education"? I would say that is a result of a narrow-minded thinking and ignorance...the very opposite of education.

There is a fundamental problem with certain Islamic clerics and community leaders in the UK, among other countries, promoting extreme ideology...it's been discussed quite often in the press.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Says who? The israelis and their western sponsors? Yeah, that's a very neutral and credible opinion indeed
Egypt, USA, Australia, UK, Japan, the whole EU, have all branded Hamas a terrorist organisation. There are many other countries that refuse to have political contact with the group due to its activities. I wouldn't say that the US is Israel's sponsor anymore than it is Pakistan's or Egypt's sponsor...this country gives aid to a lot of foreign countries.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
What "illegal" activities? Israel has been engaging in illegal activities for over half a century, invading and occupying, annexing land that doesnt belong to them, kicking people out of their homes, ethnic cleansing, building settlements, massacring civilians, using banned weapons, building apartheid wall, etc..... There is no country in more violation of UN resolutions and international law than Israel. How does israel bombing kids on the beach, cafes where people are watching soccer, schools, hospitals, TV stations, journalists, UN shelters, universities, ambulances, power generation stations qualify as self defense?
Once again your post quickly changes the subject from Hamas to Israel...according to you Hamas is capable of no wrongs, while Israel should be blamed for everything.

-No one but you, and like-minded extremists, thinks Israel has conducted ethnic cleansing.
-No one but you, and like-minded extremists, are focused on Israel's "illegal" formation.
-Israel has not annexed anymore land in the past several years. In fact, over the last 40 years, Israel's occupied holdings have shrunk greatly, which I showed in the other thread.

Israel has killed innocent civilians through collateral damage and has even committed some war crimes in the past, something I have acknowledged. But Hamas has its own laundry list of crimes and they have been called out by many humanitarian organisations and nations for their transgressions (human shield tactics, targeting Israeli citizens, kidnapping, weapons smuggling, improper use of safe have sites such as hospitals and schools).

I provided links in the other thread which discussed these activities but you didn't respond.

Also please provide proof that Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than any other nation. I find it hard to believe.



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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
When you can justify bombing ambulances, TV stations, hospitals, UN shelters, kids making sand castles on a beach, people smoking shisha and watching soccer, universities, schools, etc, then I'll bother to indulge you and justify the rocket firing.
You have a different sense of justice and fairness than us westerners. We don't judge the morality of someone's actions based on how other people act. We make that determination based on established, unbiased standards (laws). If Israel intentionally bombed civilians, than I agree with you that they are guilty of crimes. Based on the evidence so far, I highly doubt the collateral deaths and damage caused by them was intentional.

Hamas' intentional targeting and killing of civilians is in-and-of-itself wrong morally and according to international law ...regardless of Israel's actions.


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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
I was answering another post by another person in a conversation that didn't involve you. So if you don't care, kindly butt out and make yourself scarce. Because many of the zionists still keep spreading propaganda that Palestinians have no claim to the land, that Israel is entitled to all the west bank, and the Palestinians are "recent" immigrants from other Arab countries. Just read a couple of posts ago with bkM3 claming there's no such thing as Palestine or Palestinians
Here we go with the "zionist" threat again.

I'm not here to speak for @bkM3's beliefs. You seem to bring up Israel's "illegal" formation quite often...it really is the only constant in your numerous arguments. You can talk all you want about how "wrong" it was, but that won't change anything or add anything useful to the current crisis.

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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Any future drive towards a peace that's actually sustainable must be based on acknowledging the rights of the Palestinians. Just like how peace was brought into post apartheid S. Africa by acknowledging the legitimate grievances of the black citizens, or how peace was brought to the US by ending the discrimination and oppression of the blacks.
I agree with the part in bold. There are in fact many Israeli's who agree with that statement and even acknowledge that their country has not done a good job helping the Palestinians in the past. The problem for immediate peace is Hamas. How can the Israeli's cooperate with a group which not only denies Israel's right to exist, but also has the overt goal of destroying the country?

Israel has been willing to make concessions in the past and has demonstrated an ability to at least co-exist with certain Palestinian authorities (look at Israel's relationship with the Abbas and the West Bank). I don't see long-term stability in the future so long as Hamas is in charge of Gaza and neither do Israel's neighbors (Egypt and Jordan to name a few).

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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
So how come your Israeli darlings are still to this very day chasing Nazi war criminals who are mostly 80 and 90 year old men on their deathbed?
We have a saying in the West, "Justice is Blind." It doesn't matter whether a criminal broke the law 1 year ago or 40 years ago...a criminal is a criminal. I guess that's a foreign concept to you.

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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
They're still negotiating. No final agreement yet. Yes, the unity government. The same government Netanyahu tried to incite the west to unrecognize. In fact, one of the reasons why the israelis attacked Gaza was to destroy this unity government. It definitely wasn't because of 3 dead settlers or a bunch of rocket fire like they led you to believe. Yes, and I linked an article to that on my facebook page. And yes, I'm a very harsh critic of the Sisi military regime and their collaboration with the israelis.
They attacked Hamas to reduce its rocket capabilities and destroy the tunnels leading into Israel (they've found 32 so far). Israel is experienced enough in counter-insurgency to know that they can't destroy Hamas' "unity" simply by bombing and targeted raids.

And I think you've missed the significance of Egypt brokering the peace deal. I'm not a big fan of military regimes either, especially the one in Egypt. But you have something unique going on here: Egypt (a long-time enemy of Israel in numerous conflicts) is not only cooperating with the Israeli's to block the flow of weapons, supplies and money to Hamas but is also helping to broker a peace deal. There is a level of trust, however small, between the 2 countries...hopefully it lays the groundwork for long-term peace and cooperation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Well then, Einstein, why don't you lead by example and explain to us how you would suggest solving the conflict. Because all you ever do is rant and post inaccurate biased BS, just like you accuse me of doing. And for the record, I think the only viable long term solution is one binational Arab-Jewish state in all of Palestine between the jordan river and the mediterranean sea. I believe I already stated that once or twice before.

There's no "viable" 2 state solution right now. The 2 state solution died the moment Netanyahu refuse to freeze (let alone dismantle) settlements to salvage the Kerry peace talks and help save the reputation of Mahmoud Abbas (who in case you've forgotten is a "pacifist" who doesn't fire rockets, dig tunnels, or capture Israelis).
The solution to Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not a binational Arab-Jewish state...you're high if you think that would ever be accepted by either the majority Israelis or Palestinians.

The solution is more akin to what is going on in the West Bank...Palestinian authority takes hold and develops its infrastructure and governance abilities. The Israeli's obviously need to continue to dismantle their settlements and give up control of the Jordanian-Israeli border for that to work...but that's the right direction.

The same concept needs to be applied to Gaza, and has been for the most part. The biggest problem for Gaza is Hamas. So long as a terrorist group is running that area, Israel is always going to have a reason to be prepared and ready to strike. Whatever form of government eventually takes hold in Gaza, it needs to be one that seeks peaceful co-existence with Israel, not Israel's destruction.

Also the "Kerry Peace talks" didn't fail because Netanyahu froze the dismantling of Isreali settlements...they died because no one in the international community, including Israel, takes the Obama administration seriously. That's why Egypt is working the peace deal and the US is learning about it from the news.

Something to note:the fact that you acknowledge that Netanyahu was in fact dismantling Israeli settlements seems to contradict your earlier claims that Israel is still trying to expand its territory.
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      08-07-2014, 01:00 PM   #274
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Originally Posted by Petros
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post

it is a known fact that unrwa employs hamas militants
This is a serious accusation. Do you have any evidence for it?

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lol you keep looking for ways to justify it.
You've been doing nothing but justifying and excusing land theft and ethnic cleansing.
Ethnic cleansing? The entire Hamas Charter (written in 1988, which they refuse to change or amend) is ENTIRELY about wiping out the Jews. That is not Israel's purpose or action at all toward Gaza or the Palestinians - Israel is 20+ % Palestinian.
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      08-07-2014, 01:06 PM   #275
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Ethnic cleansing? The entire Hamas Charter (written in 1988, which they refuse to change or amend) is ENTIRELY about wiping out the Jews. That is not Israel's purpose or action at all toward Gaza or the Palestinians - Israel is 20+ % Palestinian.
Where do you think the population of Gaza came from?

If you don't think Israel practices ethnic cleansing then go tell that to the descendants of 700000 palestinians expelled from their homes in 1948
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      08-07-2014, 01:09 PM   #276
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You are wrong. If it was about the land, the Hamas Charter would state reclaiming the land as a goal. The Charter's stated goal is genocide of the Jews.

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Originally Posted by i dunno View Post
but that hatred of jews probably stems from the anger over the partition.
You could be right, dunno, but if you are, that would make the folks who wrote Hamas' charter a bunch of abject idiots, assuming they have any education at all. I suppose, all things considered, it'd be best if they don't have any education; at least were that so, they would only be ignorant, and not thus (as) culpable for such an egregious oversight in the composition of their charter.

All the best.

P.S.
I haven't read Hamas' charter. I made the statement above taking it on faith that bbbbmw is correct in his assertion.
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      08-07-2014, 01:51 PM   #277
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
You think young men from the UK decapitating British soldiers in the streets of London and going off to foreign countries to conduct terrorism is a result of better "education"? I would say that is a result of a narrow-minded thinking and ignorance...the very opposite of education.

There is a fundamental problem with certain Islamic clerics and community leaders in the UK, among other countries, promoting extreme ideology...it's been discussed quite often in the press.
What the hell are you mumbling about? We're talking about Palestine, and now you want to debate UK jihadists? I guess you ran out of BS lies to propagate about Palestine.

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Egypt, USA, Australia, UK, Japan, the whole EU, have all branded Hamas a terrorist organisation.
Egypt hates hamas because it's an offshoot of the brotherhood, the main opposition to the military dictatorship regime. Japan is a US client state and has been since 1945. Outside of the pro-israel western governments, the rest of the world does not consider Hamas as a terrorist group. More countries recognize Israeli occupation as illegal than Hamas as a terrorist group.
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I wouldn't say that the US is Israel's sponsor anymore than it is Pakistan's or Egypt's sponsor...this country gives aid to a lot of foreign countries.
It's a sponsor of all those regimes.

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Once again your post quickly changes the subject from Hamas to Israel...according to you Hamas is capable of no wrongs, while Israel should be blamed for everything.
No, Israel should be blamed for Israeli occupation, Israeli apartheid, Israeli atrocities, and Israeli ethnic cleansing. But you want to give them a free pass on all of the above and cry about the hamas charter instead.

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-No one but you, and like-minded extremists, thinks Israel has conducted ethnic cleansing.
All serious historians agree Israel did ethnic cleansing. I gave you plenty of examples. You prefer to wallow in ignorance instead.
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-No one but you, and like-minded extremists, are focused on Israel's "illegal" formation.
Your zionist cronies always on a daily basis keep blaming the Arabs and palestinians for rejecting the partition plan. So I'm not the only one focusing on israel's illegal creation.
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-Israel has not annexed anymore land in the past several years. In fact, over the last 40 years, Israel's occupied holdings have shrunk greatly, which I showed in the other thread.
Yeah, I guess if you get your ass kicked and run away, you end up giving back some of the land that you stole. What's your point?

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Israel has killed innocent civilians through collateral damage and has even committed some war crimes in the past, something I have acknowledged.
Pretty much the only correct thing you've ever said.
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But Hamas has its own laundry list of crimes and they have been called out by many humanitarian organisations and nations for their transgressions (human shield tactics, targeting Israeli citizens, kidnapping, weapons smuggling, improper use of safe have sites such as hospitals and schools).
None of which has been reported in the last month.

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Also please provide proof that Israel is in violation of more UN resolutions than any other nation. I find it hard to believe
.http://unispal.un.org/UNISPAL.NSF/0/...257B10006D19B2





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You have a different sense of justice and fairness than us westerners. We don't judge the morality of someone's actions based on how other people act. We make that determination based on established, unbiased standards (laws).
Great. So when can we start enforcing all those UN resolutions Israel is in violation of?
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If Israel intentionally bombed civilians, than I agree with you that they are guilty of crimes. Based on the evidence so far, I highly doubt the collateral deaths and damage caused by them was intentional.
It is this disgusting and despicable excusing of massacres that fuels the conflict. The Israelis can massacre 1800 civilians, including almost 400 children. Then they come out and say "oops, it's an accident", and then people like you come out and say "oh ok. don't worry about it, wink wink nudge nudge". Then you wonder why Palestinians are so angry

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Hamas' intentional targeting and killing of civilians is in-and-of-itself wrong morally and according to international law ...regardless of Israel's actions.
Israel's occupation, apartheid, ethic cleansing, and massacres are illegal, regardless of Hamas' actions.



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How can the Israeli's cooperate with a group which not only denies Israel's right to exist, but also has the overt goal of destroying the country?
Israel denies Palestine's right to exist and is destroying their country. I guess the Palestinians should just suck it up and keep quiet.

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Israel has been willing to make concessions in the past and has demonstrated an ability to at least co-exist with certain Palestinian authorities (look at Israel's relationship with the Abbas and the West Bank).
They refused to release the 4th round of prisoners or stop building settlements, which was a request from Abbas.
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I don't see long-term stability in the future so long as Hamas is in charge of Gaza and neither do Israel's neighbors (Egypt and Jordan to name a few).
Just in case you didn't know there was no stability before Hamas existed either. Something about an illegal occupation, or something like that I believe.



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We have a saying in the West, "Justice is Blind." It doesn't matter whether a criminal broke the law 1 year ago or 40 years ago...a criminal is a criminal.
Fantastic. So when is netanyahu's trial for war crimes gonna be? Right after Bush's and Blair's for invading Iraq?


Quote:
And I think you've missed the significance of Egypt brokering the peace deal. I'm not a big fan of military regimes either, especially the one in Egypt. But you have something unique going on here: Egypt (a long-time enemy of Israel in numerous conflicts) is not only cooperating with the Israeli's to block the flow of weapons, supplies and money to Hamas but is also helping to broker a peace deal.
Egypt hasn't been an "enemy" of Israel since 1979. In fact, under Mubarak and Sisi, Egypt is BFF with Israel.
Quote:
There is a level of trust, however small, between the 2 countries...hopefully it lays the groundwork for long-term peace and cooperation.
If "peace" means israel aligning itself with a military dictator who overthrew an elected leader (no matter his faults), massacred thousands of protesters, stifled dissent, oversaw kangaroo courts that shut down media, imprisoned journalists, sentenced hundreds of people to mass death sentences in 15 min trials, and resurrected the much hated fascist police state then no thanks, I don't want that "peace".



Quote:
The solution to Israeli-Palestinian conflict is not a binational Arab-Jewish state...you're high if you think that would ever be accepted by either the majority Israelis or Palestinians.
Actually plenty of Palestinians would accept that solution. As for the Israelis, a bit of tough love like the one shown to apartheid south africa will make them change their tune pretty quickly.

Quote:
The solution is more akin to what is going on in the West Bank...Palestinian authority takes hold and develops its infrastructure and governance abilities. The Israeli's obviously need to continue to dismantle their settlements and give up control of the Jordanian-Israeli border for that to work...but that's the right direction.
You mean cantons and bantustans masquerading as a state?

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The same concept needs to be applied to Gaza, and has been for the most part. The biggest problem for Gaza is Hamas. So long as a terrorist group is running that area, Israel is always going to have a reason to be prepared and ready to strike. Whatever form of government eventually takes hold in Gaza, it needs to be one that seeks peaceful co-existence with Israel, not Israel's destruction.
So when will we expect you to demand Israel recognize Palestine's right to exist?

Quote:
Also the "Kerry Peace talks" didn't fail because Netanyahu froze the dismantling of Isreali settlements...they died because no one in the international community, including Israel, takes the Obama administration seriously. That's why Egypt is working the peace deal and the US is learning about it from the news.
LMAO! Funniest thing I've ever heard! So the peace talks failed because no one takes Obama seriously? If only we had a widely respected and renowned international statesman in the White House, like George W Bush,.....oh wait........

Quote:
Something to note:the fact that you acknowledge that Netanyahu was in fact dismantling Israeli settlements seems to contradict your earlier claims that Israel is still trying to expand its territory.
Netanayu never dismantled settlements. WHen the hell did I say otherwise?
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      08-07-2014, 02:10 PM   #278
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Ethnic cleansing? The entire Hamas Charter (written in 1988, which they refuse to change or amend) is ENTIRELY about wiping out the Jews. That is not Israel's purpose or action at all toward Gaza or the Palestinians - Israel is 20+ % Palestinian.
petros, see below for proof

When there was talk of reforming the UNRWA by removing Hamas members from its ranks, the editor of a Hamas paper wrote that, “Laying off the agency employees because of their political affiliation means laying off all the employees of the aid agency, because…they are all members of the ‘resistance,’ in its various forms.”

The official word from Hamas was that it and the UNRWA are the same thing. The UNRWA’s vast majority of locally sourced Gazans are part of Hamas.

The UNRWA does not see that as a problem.

“I am sure that there are Hamas members on the UNRWA payroll,” a former UNRWA Commissioner General said, “and I don’t see that as a crime.”

http://canadafreepress.com/index.php/article/65086
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      08-07-2014, 02:28 PM   #279
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I think if everyone ignores @Petros he may stop his ramblings.
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      08-07-2014, 02:31 PM   #280
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I think if everyone ignores @Petros he may stop his ramblings.
I might, if you stop posting fairytales and myths.
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      08-07-2014, 02:43 PM   #281
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I think if everyone ignores @Petros he may stop his ramblings.
There is no getting through to someone like that. He is as brainwashed as the terrorists that he is defending.
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      08-07-2014, 02:47 PM   #282
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There is no getting through to someone like that. He is as brainwashed as the terrorists that he is defending.
Ok nice playing with you kid. Now go back to losing brain cells watching Faux News
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      08-07-2014, 02:47 PM   #283
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[quote] various statements form both the quoted members below...prior posts not specifically quoted for brevity....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
I think if everyone ignores @Petros he may stop his ramblings.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
I might, if you stop posting fairytales and myths.
And thus we see the pattern of escalation played out right here on the forum.
  • One party says something.
  • Another disagrees and rebuts/refutes the initial statement with his own interpretation of events.
  • The first party, even more frustrated, for all intents and purposes calls the second a liar and proposes an action to minimize/isolate the second party.
  • The second party intimates that the first of also lying and attempts to paint the first as making up their own version of history and declares irrelevant the point the first party has brought up.
Now, let's see how many more posts it'll take before the name calling commences.

Gentlemen/ladies, if you must point fingers of blame, well, I guess you just must. It won't do any good. It won't allow you to reach a common understanding, and it's certain that until you do reach such a point, there's little left for you to do but begin casting aspersions. There is one other alternative -- you can agree to disagree. (It's just unfortunate that that's not an option for Palestinians and Israelis.) It'd be a shame for that -- the devolution into insults -- to happen because at that point this thread will be of no value to anyone.

All the best.
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Last edited by tony20009; 08-07-2014 at 07:08 PM..
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      08-07-2014, 03:37 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Egypt hates hamas because it's an offshoot of the brotherhood, the main opposition to the military dictatorship regime. Japan is a US client state and has been since 1945. Outside of the pro-israel western governments, the rest of the world does not consider Hamas as a terrorist group. More countries recognize Israeli occupation as illegal than Hamas as a terrorist group. It's a sponsor of all those regimes.
Egypt also is against Hamas because it has consistently instigated violence with Israel. Egypt realizes, like many Arab nations, that one of the main reasons they are still a 3rd world country is because of the war, violence and extremism that plagues the region.

Which countries recognize Israel as occupying Gaza and the West Bank? I could care less if they are countries like China, Venezuela or some other 3rd world autocratic nation but am curious about this claim of yours.

How is Japan a US client state? Simply because we have US forces stationed there? Are Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Italy US client states, because we have forces stationed there too and they certainly don't share the same views as either Japan or the US.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
No, Israel should be blamed for Israeli occupation, Israeli apartheid, Israeli atrocities, and Israeli ethnic cleansing. But you want to give them a free pass on all of the above and cry about the hamas charter instead.

All serious historians agree Israel did ethnic cleansing. I gave you plenty of examples. You prefer to wallow in ignorance instead.
You actually gave no examples of Israeli ethnic cleansing...please provide some links to subjective, credible historical references.

I blame the Israelis where blame is due and I have acknowledged some of their wrong-doings in past posts. You on the other hand portray the Israelis as the root cause of all the problems in Israel/Palestine. I have yet to see you even acknowledge that Hamas as even partly responsible for the ongoing violence. I wonder why that is?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Israel has not annexed anymore land in the past several years. In fact, over the last 40 years, Israel's occupied holdings have shrunk greatly, which I showed in the other thread.
Yeah, I guess if you get your ass kicked and run away, you end up giving back some of the land that you stole. What's your point?
This is pretty moronic. When did Israel get its ass kicked? Israel has won every conflict/war with its neighbors. They returned Sinai voluntarily. They returned southern lebanon. They handed gaza over to the Palestinians and parts of the West Bank. I don't remember any foreign power forcing their hand on those issues. No one but your UK buddies will take you seriously if you go around making these erroneous statements.

But my main point is, you finally acknowledge that Israel has given up much of its occupied territories and is in fact smaller than it was before!!!!

So you're okay with retracting your earlier claim to the contrary? You know, the claim that Israel is still trying to expand its territory?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
So where is the part that shows Israel has the most UN resolutions against it? I could really care less what the UN's opinion of Israel is, I'm just curious where you are getting your "facts" from.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post

Israel's occupation, apartheid, ethic cleansing, and massacres are illegal, regardless of Hamas' actions.
Since you've been relying on the UN's rulings as a basis for part of your argument, why hasn't the UN ruled Israel's actions as "massacres" or "ethnic cleansing"?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Israel denies Palestine's right to exist and is destroying their country. I guess the Palestinians should just suck it up and keep quiet.
Yes...Israel denies Palestine's right to exist...that's why Israel removed its military forces from Gaza in 2005 and why it has gradually done the same in the West Bank over the years...because Israel's ultimate goal is to wipe out the Palestinians and the best way to do that is give them autonomy....

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
They refused to release the 4th round of prisoners or stop building settlements, which was a request from Abbas. Just in case you didn't know there was no stability before Hamas existed either.
No there was no stability in Gaza before Hamas, but when comparing Gaza, controlled by Hamas, to the West bank, controlled by the Palestinian authority, it certainly seems like Gaza has been much more volatile and conflict-ridden...that couldn't have anything to do with Hamas though, right?



Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Egypt hasn't been an "enemy" of Israel since 1979. In fact, under Mubarak and Sisi, Egypt is BFF with Israel. If "peace" means israel aligning itself with a military dictator who overthrew an elected leader (no matter his faults), massacred thousands of protesters, stifled dissent, oversaw kangaroo courts that shut down media, imprisoned journalists, sentenced hundreds of people to mass death sentences in 15 min trials, and resurrected the much hated fascist police state then no thanks, I don't want that "peace".
Let's not kid ourselves...the Muslim Brotherhood was not known for its democratic ways either. One of the first things Morsi did was essentially ban legislative or judicial opposition to his decrees and cement his autocratic rule.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20451208

And it was a combination of military coup and widespread protests that forced Morsi from office.

The actions/legality of the Muslim Brotherhood and the current Egyptian Government aside...cooperation between Israel and Egypt is key for long-term stability in that region. If you can't acknowledge that, then what point is there to debating possible peace plans?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Actually plenty of Palestinians would accept that solution. As for the Israelis, a bit of tough love like the one shown to apartheid south africa will make them change their tune pretty quickly.
Plenty= a majority? Anyway what is proof of this claim? What poll are you referencing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
O! Funniest thing I've ever heard! So the peace talks failed because no one takes Obama seriously? If only we had a widely respected and renowned international statesman in the White House, like George W Bush,.....oh wait........
Do you read the news? Israel isn't the only one. Russia doesn't take the US seriously and is still actively supporting Ukrainian separatists. Assad doesn't take the seriously and is still slaughtering his opposition. China is unilaterally claiming airspace and sea lanes that are closer to Vietnam and Philippines than its own shore line. This presidency has been marked by a lack of credibility on the international front.

Bush made his own mistakes...but like I said before, westerners tend to judge people based on standards rather than a comparison to "the guy who preceded him." Perhaps that's too hard for you to understand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
Netanayu never dismantled settlements. WHen the hell did I say otherwise?
You said he stopped freezing the settlement construction:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Petros View Post
The 2 state solution died the moment Netanyahu refuse to freeze (let alone dismantle) settlements to salvage the Kerry peace talks and help save the reputation of Mahmoud Abbas (who in case you've forgotten is a "pacifist" who doesn't fire rockets, dig tunnels, or capture Israelis).
In the past, he has made efforts to halt the construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ettlement-plan
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      08-07-2014, 04:27 PM   #285
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Egypt also is against Hamas because it has consistently instigated violence with Israel. Egypt realizes, like many Arab nations, that one of the main reasons they are still a 3rd world country is because of the war, violence and extremism that plagues the region.Nope. The Egyptian regime realizes that appeasing the Israelis will earn them enough American support to survive and oppress any domestic democratic aspirations of the people. And it's interesting how you dismiss a democracy like Venezuela yet are so eager to embrace a military dictatorship in Egypt.

Which countries recognize Israel as occupying Gaza and the West Bank?the whole world does. I could care less if they are countries like China, Venezuela or some other 3rd world autocratic nation but am curious about this claim of yours.Oh yeah, only white western countries are entitled to an opinion. The rest of the world doesn't count. Thanks for exposing yourself as a racist

How is Japan a US client state? Simply because we have US forces stationed there? Are Turkey, Saudi Arabia, and Italy US client states, because we have forces stationed there too and they certainly don't share the same views as either Japan or the US.All of them are US clients to some extent, except for Turkey which is recently beginning to carve a more independent and assertive path



You actually gave no examples of Israeli ethnic cleansing...please provide some links to subjective, credible historical references. Here http://www.amazon.ca/Ethnic-Cleansin.../dp/1851685553

I blame the Israelis where blame is due and I have acknowledged some of their wrong-doings in past posts. You on the other hand portray the Israelis as the root cause of all the problems in Israel/Palestine. I have yet to see you even acknowledge that Hamas as even partly responsible for the ongoing violence. I wonder why that is?There wouldn't be violence if there wasn't an occupation. So simple even a 5th grader can understand it.




This is pretty moronic. When did Israel get its ass kicked? 1973, 2000, 2006 Israel has won every conflict/war with its neighbors. They returned Sinai voluntarily.I'm sure 1973 war had nothing to do with it They returned southern lebanon.Because of Hezbollah spanking them They handed gaza over to the PalestiniansBecause the resistance made it too costly to protect the settlements and parts of the West Bank. No they didn'tI don't remember any foreign power forcing their hand on those issues.No, the resistance did No one but your UK buddies will take you seriously if you go around making these erroneous statements.You seem to hate the Brits. Why? Did a Brit sleep with your mom or something?

But my main point is, you finally acknowledge that Israel has given up much of its occupied territories and is in fact smaller than it was before!!!! So you acknowledge that "Israel" has no real borders? And there's a difference between "giving up" and being thrown out of a land.

So you're okay with retracting your earlier claim to the contrary? You know, the claim that Israel is still trying to expand its territory?
Oh I'm sure the settlements and apartheid wall have nothing to do with expropriating territory


So where is the part that shows Israel has the most UN resolutions against it? I could really care less what the UN's opinion of Israel is, I'm just curious where you are getting your "facts" from.You don't care about the UN opinion. You don't care about Venezuela or China or the rest of the world. you don't care about human rights organizations. You don't care about israeli jewish historians. You don't care about Miko Peled or Norman Finkelstein or Ilan Pappe. you don't care about Benny Morris. You don't care about the Neturei Karta or Marek ebelman or the Israeli refuseniks. You don't care about anyone else. All you care about are your friends in Faux News and CNN parroting Israeli propaganda.




Since you've been relying on the UN's rulings as a basis for part of your argument, why hasn't the UN ruled Israel's actions as "massacres" or "ethnic cleansing"?
The UN has already called for an investigation into war crimes, just like they've called for investigations into previous massacres. But of course the Israelis will refuse to cooperate, and your beloved little USA will use the veto power to protect them, which will doom to failure any potential investigations.



Yes...Israel denies Palestine's right to exist...that's why Israel removed its military forces from Gaza in 2005 and why it has gradually done the same in the West Bank over the years...because Israel's ultimate goal is to wipe out the Palestinians and the best way to do that is give them autonomy....When did Israel withdraw from the west bank? And I'm sure the palestinians being shot at daily by jewish settlers and israeli occupation forces and who get thier homes and land destroyed regularly feel so goddamn autonomous



No there was no stability in Gaza before Hamas, but when comparing Gaza, controlled by Hamas, to the West bank, controlled by the Palestinian authority, it certainly seems like Gaza has been much more volatile and conflict-ridden...that couldn't have anything to do with Hamas though, right?Several palestinians were shot to death in the west bank during peaceful protests recently. And a Palestinian teenager was forced to drink gasoline and burned alive. Yeah, that sounds very stable alright





Let's not kid ourselves...the Muslim Brotherhood was not known for its democratic ways either. One of the first things Morsi did was essentially ban legislative or judicial opposition to his decrees and cement his autocratic rule.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-20451208

And it was a combination of military coup and widespread protests that forced Morsi from office.

The actions/legality of the Muslim Brotherhood and the current Egyptian Government aside...cooperation between Israel and Egypt is key for long-term stability in that region. If you can't acknowledge that, then what point is there to debating possible peace plans?No. Long term stability will be achieved by cooperation between israelis and palestinians in the context of a fair and just settlement to the conflict. But having an unelected dictatorial regime in Cairo play bodyguard to the Israelis and keeping the Palestinians from inconveniencing the israeli occupiers will only lead to the events we've seen in the last 4 weeks.




Plenty= a majority? Anyway what is proof of this claim? What poll are you referencing?No poll and no real evidence. But more and more Palestinians are disillusioned with Abbas, the so-called peace process, and the viability of a 2 state solution.



Do you read the news? Israel isn't the only one. Russia doesn't take the US seriously and is still actively supporting Ukrainian separatists. Assad doesn't take the seriously and is still slaughtering his opposition. China is unilaterally claiming airspace and sea lanes that are closer to Vietnam and Philippines than its own shore line. This presidency has been marked by a lack of credibility on the international front.

Bush made his own mistakes...but like I said before, westerners tend to judge people based on standards rather than a comparison to "the guy who preceded him." Perhaps that's too hard for you to understand?Newsflash, no one ever took the US seriously. It's just that the rest of the world was afraid of your military power. But with your military running away from Afghanistan and Iraq after such a miserable failure, and your economy in tatters as a result of these wars, no one fears the Americans anymore. Well, not exactly. Big bad Uncle Sam still scares Arab dictators into behaving themselves



You said he stopped freezing the settlement construction:I said he refused to freeze, let alone dismantle, the settlements.



In the past, he has made efforts to halt the construction of Israeli settlements in the West Bank:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...ettlement-plan
Actually that was as a result of intense pressure by the same Obama you mock so much. And netanyahu was only too eager to resume the settlements soon after, embarassing Abbas in front of his own people.
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      08-07-2014, 04:38 PM   #286
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So, how can you possibly hope to have a small region, surrounded on 3 sides by a hated enemy, and one side by ocean water, be totally autonomous and without conflict? Maybe, like how the jews were moved to Israel, we need to take all of the Gaza strip Palestinians and move physically next to the West Bank. Neither side will be entirely satisfied, but that is the basis of compromise.

That way Gaza's former residents can have their own determination, not be surrounded by Israeli blockades. Israel will not have these 1.2 mil itches scratching at their belly all the time, and both groups can focus on building a sustainable infrastructure, contributing their youth to solving world health problems instead of dying in the streets.

"You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one. I hope some day you'll join us, and the world will live as one"

Or else we better hurry up and colonize Mars. . .
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