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      08-26-2014, 07:44 AM   #441
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Originally Posted by direwolfM3 View Post
Wow!

I did not read every post in this thread but of what i did see; there definitely is a lot of Islamophobia here. To equate Hamas with ISIS shows a complete lack of understanding. Whether you agree with their methods or not, Hamas is a democratically elected government. And many countries recognize this. I'll be the first acknowledge that wrongs have been committed on both sides and it isn't as black and white as most people on here make it out to be. And I do believe that Hamas would be more effective if they took a Nelson Mandela or Ghandi type of approach. However, I am not in their position and have no idea what it feels like to basically be a prisoner in your own home.

Lets be honest here. It starts and ends with occupation. If you don't like the word occupation, then call it a blockade or siege. Call it whatever you want; its all the same.
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
Isn't that part of the problem: semantics and spin being "accepted" rather than common sense being applied? Call it a blockade and it's an overt act of war, but apparently an occupation is not.

All the best.
Speaking of semantics...
I wouldn't exactly call it a democratic process.

I think one of the saddest parts of the whole Middle East situation is the $1 TRILLION+ wasted, and 4,500+ US Soldiers killed over there, and now Iraq is worse than it was before, and we left our enemies with functional tanks and such.

I'm sure US intervention there has resulted in very poor side effects. We just don't understand this culture in a way that we can influence it or correct it in a positive way and still remain politically correct. Until we can, I think we should just let it go. Defend Israel, yes. But that is all.

The alternative is to play their game, play it to a biblical scale, and forget about political correctness. I mean pigs blood and beheadings, deny them entry into their "Jannah". They don't play by the "rules". I know we hold onto being on "higher ground", but at what price? Failure?
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      08-26-2014, 09:33 AM   #442
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Originally Posted by direwolfM3 View Post
Wow!

I did not read every post in this thread but of what i did see; there definitely is a lot of Islamophobia here. To equate Hamas with ISIS shows a complete lack of understanding. Whether you agree with their methods or not, Hamas is a democratically elected government. And many countries recognize this. I'll be the first acknowledge that wrongs have been committed on both sides and it isn't as black and white as most people on here make it out to be. And I do believe that Hamas would be more effective if they took a Nelson Mandela or Ghandi type of approach. However, I am not in their position and have no idea what it feels like to basically be a prisoner in your own home.

Lets be honest here. It starts and ends with occupation. If you don't like the word occupation, then call it a blockade or siege. Call it whatever you want; its all the same.
blue- there is no islamophobia here, it is common sense to equate radical islam with terror. hamas and ISIS are cut from the same cloth, both will not tolerate anybody with beliefs that differ from their own. have you read Hamas's charter? it calls for the murder of all jews and israelis. is that islamophobia?


red- thats using the term very loosely. they basically slaughtered all the Palestinian Authority supporters and didnt give anybody much of a choice.

you should really go back and read the entire thread, it seems as if your just tuning into CNN and taking what they are saying at face value.

there is a huge difference between occupation and blockade, and do you know why there is a blockade? after israel pulled out in 2005 they left the borders open, they were rewarded with an insane amount of terrorist attacks such as suicide bombing in civilian areas. in 2007, after 2 years of hamas killing innocent civilians in israel they put up[ the blockade to keep their citizens safe, and it worked!
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      08-26-2014, 09:44 AM   #443
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Originally Posted by bkM3
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Originally Posted by direwolfM3 View Post
Wow!

I did not read every post in this thread but of what i did see; there definitely is a lot of Islamophobia here. To equate Hamas with ISIS shows a complete lack of understanding. Whether you agree with their methods or not, Hamas is a democratically elected government. And many countries recognize this. I'll be the first acknowledge that wrongs have been committed on both sides and it isn't as black and white as most people on here make it out to be. And I do believe that Hamas would be more effective if they took a Nelson Mandela or Ghandi type of approach. However, I am not in their position and have no idea what it feels like to basically be a prisoner in your own home.

Lets be honest here. It starts and ends with occupation. If you don't like the word occupation, then call it a blockade or siege. Call it whatever you want; its all the same.
blue- there is no islamophobia here, it is common sense to equate radical islam with terror. hamas and ISIS are cut from the same cloth, both will not tolerate anybody with beliefs that differ from their own. have you read Hamas's charter? it calls for the murder of all jews and israelis. is that islamophobia?


red- thats using the term very loosely. they basically slaughtered all the Palestinian Authority supporters and didnt give anybody much of a choice.

you should really go back and read the entire thread, it seems as if your just tuning into CNN and taking what they are saying at face value.

there is a huge difference between occupation and blockade, and do you know why there is a blockade? after israel pulled out in 2005 they left the borders open, they were rewarded with an insane amount of terrorist attacks such as suicide bombing in civilian areas. in 2007, after 2 years of hamas killing innocent civilians in israel they put up[ the blockade to keep their citizens safe, and it worked!
The reason I asked about where Palestinians make their incomes, and if they can travel and move away from Palestine is to get a sense of their existence. Some in the media refer to Gaza and WB as "refugee camps", but they seem to get money from somewhere, and if they are able to leave, it's not much of a blockade. My question is sincere - I don't know the answer.
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      08-26-2014, 09:59 AM   #444
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
The reason I asked about where Palestinians make their incomes, and if they can travel and move away from Palestine is to get a sense of their existence. Some in the media refer to Gaza and WB as "refugee camps", but they seem to get money from somewhere, and if they are able to leave, it's not much of a blockade. My question is sincere - I don't know the answer.
if they dont have jobs in gaza then they have work permits to work in Israel although im sure there are a bunch of Palestinians that choose to join hamas and received money from them.
about 1.5 million palestinians are residents of israel and live peacefully side by side with israelis so its not like the "apartheid" that the media is making it out to be.
there is a process to become a citizen but how is that any different from any other country? just as you cant just walk into the US and demand to be a citizen, the same is for israel.

the Palestinian government (PA and Hamas) received BILLIONS in aid, you have seen what they do with the money. they do not choose to build an infrastructure or help their economy. when israel pulled out of gaza they left behind functioning greenhouses that the israelis used to export fruits and vegetables, hamas destroyed them and decided to use the materials to build terror tunnels.

somebody mentioned that israel is counting the calories entering gaza and starving the gazan children. this is so far from the truth, did you know that the child obesity rate in gaza is over 15%?

In 2009, a study showed that theoverall prevalence of obesity amongadolescents aged 12-18 years old in West-Bank and Gaza Strip was 20.4% boys;13.0% girls

http://www.academia.edu/4859410/Prev...umia_Palestine
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      08-26-2014, 03:53 PM   #445
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looks like BDS got what they want!

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      08-26-2014, 06:43 PM   #446
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
blue- there is no islamophobia here, it is common sense to equate radical islam with terror. hamas and ISIS are cut from the same cloth, both will not tolerate anybody with beliefs that differ from their own. have you read Hamas's charter? it calls for the murder of all jews and israelis. is that islamophobia?


red- thats using the term very loosely. they basically slaughtered all the Palestinian Authority supporters and didnt give anybody much of a choice.

you should really go back and read the entire thread, it seems as if your just tuning into CNN and taking what they are saying at face value.

there is a huge difference between occupation and blockade, and do you know why there is a blockade? after israel pulled out in 2005 they left the borders open, they were rewarded with an insane amount of terrorist attacks such as suicide bombing in civilian areas. in 2007, after 2 years of hamas killing innocent civilians in israel they put up[ the blockade to keep their citizens safe, and it worked!

Hamas was democratically elected. The fighting with the PA occurred after Hamas won the elections when Abbas (president of the PA) refused to give up power. Which brings up another point. The PA largely advocated for peaceful negotiations with Israel; and what did it get them? The Palestinians continued to have land stolen as the settlements expanded. The Palestinians seeing this occur for years decided for a change and voted in Hamas. Whats interesting is that just before these latest bombings, Hamas and Abbas were on the verge of getting along and putting their differences aside. And some experts have said that this was the reason for Netanyahu offensive against Gaza. We all know now that killing of the three Israelis was just used as an excuse to attack.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n15/mouin-r...-mows-the-lawn

please read the above link. It gives some good insight on how the latest round of fighting started.


No country would tolerate a blockade. Again, I do not condone suicide bombings or any innocent person being killed. But lets look at the reason. They are basically in an open air prison. Everything that comes in and out is controlled. They don't even have use of their own water ways. Another post asked if Palestinians can freely move about. I think you know the answer to this. They cannot. Their are multiple check points everywhere and they are restricted from moving about freely. Thats why I believe its comical when people say that the Gazans are given a warning before being bombed and should just leave. There is no where to escape to. Gaza is very densely populated.

And CNN? Is that a news outlet??
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      08-26-2014, 07:09 PM   #447
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
if they dont have jobs in gaza then they have work permits to work in Israel although im sure there are a bunch of Palestinians that choose to join hamas and received money from them.
about 1.5 million palestinians are residents of israel and live peacefully side by side with israelis so its not like the "apartheid" that the media is making it out to be.
there is a process to become a citizen but how is that any different from any other country? just as you cant just walk into the US and demand to be a citizen, the same is for israel.

the Palestinian government (PA and Hamas) received BILLIONS in aid, you have seen what they do with the money. they do not choose to build an infrastructure or help their economy. when israel pulled out of gaza they left behind functioning greenhouses that the israelis used to export fruits and vegetables, hamas destroyed them and decided to use the materials to build terror tunnels.

somebody mentioned that israel is counting the calories entering gaza and starving the gazan children. this is so far from the truth, did you know that the child obesity rate in gaza is over 15%?

In 2009, a study showed that theoverall prevalence of obesity amongadolescents aged 12-18 years old in West-Bank and Gaza Strip was 20.4% boys;13.0% girls

http://www.academia.edu/4859410/Prev...umia_Palestine
Come on. You seem to be well versed on whats happening in Israel. So you should know that the Palestinians are treated as second class citizens there.
It's been well documented that there are different rules that apply to the non-Jewish Israelis.

Again the restriction of calories into Gaza is well documented.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...emium-1.470419


You cannot infer from the increase in the obesity rate that they are getting a sufficient nutrition. All calories are not equal. It is more likely that healthy foods were reduced and most of the nutrition is coming from cheaper, high fat, and high sugar diet.
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      08-27-2014, 10:01 AM   #448
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Originally Posted by direwolfM3 View Post
Hamas was democratically elected. The fighting with the PA occurred after Hamas won the elections when Abbas (president of the PA) refused to give up power. Which brings up another point. The PA largely advocated for peaceful negotiations with Israel; and what did it get them? The Palestinians continued to have land stolen as the settlements expanded. The Palestinians seeing this occur for years decided for a change and voted in Hamas. Whats interesting is that just before these latest bombings, Hamas and Abbas were on the verge of getting along and putting their differences aside. And some experts have said that this was the reason for Netanyahu offensive against Gaza. We all know now that killing of the three Israelis was just used as an excuse to attack.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v36/n15/mouin-r...-mows-the-lawn

please read the above link. It gives some good insight on how the latest round of fighting started.


No country would tolerate a blockade. Again, I do not condone suicide bombings or any innocent person being killed. But lets look at the reason. They are basically in an open air prison. Everything that comes in and out is controlled. They don't even have use of their own water ways. Another post asked if Palestinians can freely move about. I think you know the answer to this. They cannot. Their are multiple check points everywhere and they are restricted from moving about freely. Thats why I believe its comical when people say that the Gazans are given a warning before being bombed and should just leave. There is no where to escape to. Gaza is very densely populated.

And CNN? Is that a news outlet??
red- so was hitler, just because a party is democratically elected doesnt mean that they practice democracy.

green- israel has given up a ton of land for peace and where has that gotten them? after the israel won the 1967 war when it was attacked on 3 fronts by 4 arab armies it took control of gaza, sinai peninsula, judea and samaria (west bank), east Jerusalem, and golan heights.

when israel gave back the sinai peninsula it got peace (for the most part) from egypt but when israel pulled out of gaza completely and all it got them was more terrorism.
if a group of people was hell bent on killing you and your family would you let them walk through your border openly?

blue- it is controlled because hamas keeps smuggling in weapons to harm civilians with! look what they did with the cement that they received?

purple- they can move about freely in gaza, they cant cross into another country whether it be egypt or israel without going through checkpoints. just as the US can refuse entry so can israel.

yellow- tell hamas to stop launching rockets from these densely populated areas and israel wont attack these areas. although the cities are densely populated there is alot of open space but the cowards (hamas) wont fire from there because then they cant use Palestinian casualties to win the favor of the western media.

please see below for an Aeriel picture of an area of gaza. notice all the open space? Palestinian civilians can evacuate to these areas(or other cities where israel isnt responding to attacks at the moment)

BOLD- this is so untrue, israel attacked hamas only after days of constant rocket fire from gaza. was israel supposed to just sit back and watch?
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      08-27-2014, 10:07 AM   #449
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Originally Posted by direwolfM3 View Post
Come on. You seem to be well versed on whats happening in Israel. So you should know that the Palestinians are treated as second class citizens there.
It's been well documented that there are different rules that apply to the non-Jewish Israelis.

Again the restriction of calories into Gaza is well documented.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...emium-1.470419


You cannot infer from the increase in the obesity rate that they are getting a sufficient nutrition. All calories are not equal. It is more likely that healthy foods were reduced and most of the nutrition is coming from cheaper, high fat, and high sugar diet.
red- no country is perfect but for the most part this is not true, i have spent a significant amount of time in israel and i can tell you first hand that most Israeli-palestinians would rather live in israel than most arab countries.

green- i would like to see proof of this because this is the first time im hearing of this.
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      08-28-2014, 09:04 AM   #450
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red- so was hitler, just because a party is democratically elected doesnt mean that they practice democracy.

green- israel has given up a ton of land for peace and where has that gotten them? after the israel won the 1967 war when it was attacked on 3 fronts by 4 arab armies it took control of gaza, sinai peninsula, judea and samaria (west bank), east Jerusalem, and golan heights.

when israel gave back the sinai peninsula it got peace (for the most part) from egypt but when israel pulled out of gaza completely and all it got them was more terrorism.
if a group of people was hell bent on killing you and your family would you let them walk through your border openly?

blue- it is controlled because hamas keeps smuggling in weapons to harm civilians with! look what they did with the cement that they received?

purple- they can move about freely in gaza, they cant cross into another country whether it be egypt or israel without going through checkpoints. just as the US can refuse entry so can israel.

yellow- tell hamas to stop launching rockets from these densely populated areas and israel wont attack these areas. although the cities are densely populated there is alot of open space but the cowards (hamas) wont fire from there because then they cant use Palestinian casualties to win the favor of the western media.

please see below for an Aeriel picture of an area of gaza. notice all the open space? Palestinian civilians can evacuate to these areas(or other cities where israel isnt responding to attacks at the moment)

BOLD- this is so untrue, israel attacked hamas only after days of constant rocket fire from gaza. was israel supposed to just sit back and watch?
I don't really have the time to respond to every point. So, we can agree to disagree on just about everything. However, I cannot let your last point go without a response. And I urge you to do your own research. Operation Protective Edge began as response to the killing of the three Israeli teens. Hamas denied involvement. But Netanyahu accused them anyway and without any proof, proceeded to invade Gaza by killing, arresting and looting the Palestinians. We know now that Hamas was not involved with the murder of these Israeli teens.
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      08-28-2014, 09:17 AM   #451
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
red- no country is perfect but for the most part this is not true, i have spent a significant amount of time in israel and i can tell you first hand that most Israeli-palestinians would rather live in israel than most arab countries.

green- i would like to see proof of this because this is the first time im hearing of this.

You're not really setting the bar high if your comparing living conditions in Israel to other Arab countries.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-h...b_5473743.html
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      08-28-2014, 09:40 AM   #452
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Originally Posted by direwolfM3 View Post
I don't really have the time to respond to every point. So, we can agree to disagree on just about everything. However, I cannot let your last point go without a response. And I urge you to do your own research. Operation Protective Edge began as response to the killing of the three Israeli teens. Hamas denied involvement. But Netanyahu accused them anyway and without any proof, proceeded to invade Gaza by killing, arresting and looting the Palestinians. We know now that Hamas was not involved with the murder of these Israeli teens.
Please stop spreading lies. Hamas admitted to the kidnapping. I urge YOU to do your own research before you post.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...abb_story.html

And you failed to even acknowledge the fact that that Israel was being attacked by rockets for days before they responded.

Last edited by bkM3; 08-28-2014 at 09:46 AM..
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      08-28-2014, 09:41 AM   #453
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Originally Posted by direwolfM3 View Post
You're not really setting the bar high if your comparing living conditions in Israel to other Arab countries.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jeff-h...b_5473743.html
This does not show any proof of Israel feeding the Palestinians the '' bad calories ''
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      08-28-2014, 09:03 PM   #454
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Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
Please stop spreading lies. Hamas admitted to the kidnapping. I urge YOU to do your own research before you post.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...abb_story.html

And you failed to even acknowledge the fact that that Israel was being attacked by rockets for days before they responded.

Read this
http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/killed...onslaught.html and this

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/justif...rotective.html


the ILLEGAL OCCUPATION is the instigating event.
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      08-29-2014, 04:42 AM   #455
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Opening up the boarders is the only solution.
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      08-29-2014, 06:26 AM   #456
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Opening up the boarders is the only solution.
Or the borders, whichever comes first. I heard there is a shortage of renters. I know, I jest.
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      08-29-2014, 10:39 AM   #457
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Opening up the boarders is the only solution.
if you think opening up the borders to hamas terrorists to enter israel freely is the solution than you have not been following this conflict long enough. the reason there are borders is because after israel pulled out of gaza in 2005 hamas was infiltrating israel blowing up buses and cafes full of civilians.
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      08-29-2014, 10:49 AM   #458
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listen, i respect your opinion but i have refuted these points time and time again in this thread. you can go back and read my posts to find them.

again,hamas admitted to the kidnapping and that wasnt even the reason israel attacked gaza. the reason again, was the relentless rocketfire from gaza. israel said more than once that they wont retaliate if the firing stopped. guess what? it didnt stop.

just because the orders didnt come from above doesnt mean that it is justified. and if the order to murder those 3 boys(which one of them was an american citizen btw) didnt come from hamas leadership than where is the condemnation from said leadership? why isnt hamas leadership punishing those murderers?


http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/22/world/...s-death-hamas/

p.s. those articles that you posted are basically saying that israel doesnt have a right to respond to rocket fire from gaza. seriously???

p.p.s. israel has done more to mitigate civilian casualties than any army in history.
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      08-29-2014, 11:44 AM   #459
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Originally Posted by direwolfM3 View Post
Hamas was democratically elected. The fighting with the PA occurred after Hamas won the elections when Abbas (president of the PA) refused to give up power. Which brings up another point. The PA largely advocated for peaceful negotiations with Israel; and what did it get them?
Hamas was democratically elected, but they engaged in illegal and terrorist activities to oust the Palestinian Authority to consolidate their power in Gaza. Certainly Fatah and Palestinian Authority were no better in many aspects, but to suggest Hamas was the innocent victim defending itself back in 2008 is a pure nonsense.

Hamas has also routinely conducted public executions (no trials) of its own citizens for supposedly being "Israeli collaborators" and have generally stamped out any kind of political opposition to their rule. Their actions have been declared illegal and immoral by many human rights watch groups. And they have routinely instigated conflict with Israel and Egypt over the last 6 years. Let's not even get into the fact that they aren't signatories to the Geneva Conventions.

Conversely, the actions and diplomatic efforts of the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank have resulted in a largely peaceful and stable atmosphere there. Israeli West Bank settled areas have been shrinking over the last 10 years because the Israeli government has more of a reason to trust Abbas and the PA.

But other than all of the above, I agree with you: Hamas is a "democratic" government with "democratic" intentions.
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      08-29-2014, 05:31 PM   #460
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if you think opening up the borders to hamas terrorists to enter israel freely is the solution than you have not been following this conflict long enough. the reason there are borders is because after israel pulled out of gaza in 2005 hamas was infiltrating israel blowing up buses and cafes full of civilians.
Yes its difficult to prevent a suicide bomber when they're convinced the act is justified by God.
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      08-29-2014, 09:02 PM   #461
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Speaking of borders: in 2011 Obama proved his uselessness in foreign affairs: http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/05/....palestinians/ in reading that article, I am actually surprised that coming from CNN, it's accurate.

Add to that his recent condemnation of Israel defending itself... is he trying to piss off our only ally in the Middle East? Or does he have ulterior motives?

Condemning Israel for defending itself is like telling Texas it shouldn't defend itself if Mexico (also a 'democracy') started launching rockets across the border. However if that ever happened, it would be a pretty short conflict... might even get Obama off vacation?? nah.

His response to the beheading of James Foley?? Very weak. And then it was right back to golf. How ridiculous. No wonder the world has lost so much respect.
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      08-29-2014, 09:15 PM   #462
direwolfM3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bkM3 View Post
listen, i respect your opinion but i have refuted these points time and time again in this thread. you can go back and read my posts to find them.

again,hamas admitted to the kidnapping and that wasnt even the reason israel attacked gaza. the reason again, was the relentless rocketfire from gaza. israel said more than once that they wont retaliate if the firing stopped. guess what? it didnt stop.

just because the orders didnt come from above doesnt mean that it is justified. and if the order to murder those 3 boys(which one of them was an american citizen btw) didnt come from hamas leadership than where is the condemnation from said leadership? why isnt hamas leadership punishing those murderers?


http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/22/world/...s-death-hamas/

p.s. those articles that you posted are basically saying that israel doesnt have a right to respond to rocket fire from gaza. seriously???

p.p.s. israel has done more to mitigate civilian casualties than any army in history.
Refuted? That's using the term rather loosely. Anyways, I respect your opinion as well.

But how is it exactly that Israel has done more to minimize civilian casualties? The international community thinks otherwise.
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