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      04-14-2021, 03:46 PM   #23
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Lots of excellent points are being made.

Perhaps somewhat unrelated, but still interesting to consider, is that with an EV, you could theoretically make a body shell in any shape or form and use a very common chassis underpinning. It's basically like an RC car. Since the batteries are often in the floor and the motor(s) small, it's easy to make make a basic chassis that could be easily modified to work as a sports car, sedan, or SUV. Want to drive something that looks like a Ferrari? Easy. Want a sedan? Easy.
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      04-14-2021, 04:29 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
Is any ICE car is able to deliver on all these benchmarks? I'm confident in my guess of "no."

Most ICE cars have parts that start failing at increasing levels of expense at 40k, 60k, 100k miles, so expecting that all of those benchmarks need to be achieved for an electric car in addition to some ridiculously high mileage on the battery is very unreasonable.
Yes, nearly all of them. One example: 2017 Mercedes GLE 350. Another example: 2010 VW Touareg TDI. It's normal for ICE vehicles.

EVs are so not ready for prime time for people who actually use their vehicles.
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      04-14-2021, 04:53 PM   #25
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Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Yes, nearly all of them. One example: 2017 Mercedes GLE 350. Another example: 2010 VW Touareg TDI. It's normal for ICE vehicles.

EVs are so not ready for prime time for people who actually use their vehicles.
Conversely, even a short range EV covers the actual usage of probably 95% of normal drivers.

And when I have a fuel drop at home, I'll be sure to compare charging time to refill time. As it stands, I can recharge in my own garage, without driving five miles away, pulling out my debit card, touching a nozzle that's certain to be filthy, having an ad for telenovellas blared at me and nearly being side swiped by vacuous idiots every fifteen seconds.

Is an EV a great cross country travel option? Nope, but I've also never had a car with more than 300 miles of effective range and yet somehow, here I am at 47 and against the odds, I'm still doing fine. 500 mile range, sheesh, my wife and kid would lose their minds.
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      04-14-2021, 04:56 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Yes, nearly all of them. One example: 2017 Mercedes GLE 350. Another example: 2010 VW Touareg TDI. It's normal for ICE vehicles.
Having a 25 gallon fuel tank to make up for terrible fuel economy is one way to get to the 500 mile per tank benchmark.

But both examples are still affected by extra drag during extremely cold temperatures and extra power loss from running the AC in extremely hot temperatures.

The cost to get an ICE vehicle to 150k miles to maintain the same performance is going to cost quite a bit compared to an EV.

The increasing cost of new car purchases, the decreasing purchasing power of the average consumer as reflected by long financing terms, and the looming "maybe one day soon" gas price increase is going to have more people look at the long term cost benefits of ownership of EVs compared to ICE vehicles.

The "clearly cheaper to own" is the much better benchmark for EVs.

Quote:
EVs are so not ready for prime time for people who actually use their vehicles.
I'm sure those 7 people in the whole world where this actually applies on a regular basis won't be forced into resorting to an EV for a long time.

Every year I do a road trip that's between 600 to 800 miles in a day. In an EV, during the one or two extra stops I would make I would certainly be thinking "I would be hours ahead if I had a gas car." However, when I do stop for gas, I also stop to use a rest room, order food, buy snacks, and anything else I need to do. If I'm quick, it's 25 minutes but on average, it's closer to a 50 minute stop.

A 50 minute fast EV charge will get you quite a bit of range. There are plenty of people who make these stops in a much quicker time, but that's few people out of an already very small subset of drivers.

Last edited by Ximian; 04-14-2021 at 05:08 PM..
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      04-14-2021, 05:03 PM   #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Yes, nearly all of them. One example: 2017 Mercedes GLE 350. Another example: 2010 VW Touareg TDI. It's normal for ICE vehicles.

EVs are so not ready for prime time for people who actually use their vehicles.
I’m not sure what you mean by “people who actually use their vehicles” but this is sort of like declaring “I need to hammer a nail, my screwdriver can’t do that, screwdrivers aren’t ready yet”
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      04-14-2021, 05:11 PM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
Most ICE cars have parts that start failing at increasing levels of expense at 40k, 60k, 100k miles,
Most of these expenses also go for electric cars. I mean, the major difference is the engine. Of course modern engines need maintenance, but if I look at the engine of my daily, a volvo diesel, it has now 150k miles on the clock, and the only things that have been done is service every 20k miles (and electric cars also need some service, they have cabin air filters too), and cambelt change at 110k miles.
And of course a brake change (also at about 100k miles)
Costs of these services are pretty low. Only once a sensor went bad. $40 it cost me (replaced it myself, relative easy job; diagnosing was also easy with volvo software. Don't know what a mechanic would charge; maybe 30min work and the sensor that will cost double of course)

Lots of other parts that break down are often suspension related.
And the heavier the car, more stress is put on suspension parts, so either more wear, or they have to be made beefier (more expensive?)
And all that torque? wear on your CV joints

And, I don't think EV's are maintenance free. Much maintenance is often due to design flaws (think tesla model S drivetrains!). Lots of problems on cars are related to electrics. The more complex a car, the more these problems occur.
I wouldn't be surpised that there will be lots of EV models in the future that are plagued by electrical faults. Temperature sensors, current measuring sensors, maybe little fans to cool certain electronics etc etc.
I think that the EV's we're seeing now are probably the best of the bunch. No brand wants their first EV model to be plagued by faults, so I think that the parts than are now put into EV's are of relative higher quality than the parts that we'll see in 10-20 years. Because then an EV is a business model that has to make money, and not a pilot that has to win customers.
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      04-14-2021, 06:00 PM   #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
Having a 25 gallon fuel tank to make up for terrible fuel economy is one way to get to the 500 mile per tank benchmark.

But both examples are still affected by extra drag during extremely cold temperatures and extra power loss from running the AC in extremely hot temperatures.

The cost to get an ICE vehicle to 150k miles to maintain the same performance is going to cost quite a bit compared to an EV.

The increasing cost of new car purchases, the decreasing purchasing power of the average consumer as reflected by long financing terms, and the looming "maybe one day soon" gas price increase is going to have more people look at the long term cost benefits of ownership of EVs compared to ICE vehicles.

The "clearly cheaper to own" is the much better benchmark for EVs.



I'm sure those 7 people in the whole world where this actually applies on a regular basis won't be forced into resorting to an EV for a long time.

Every year I do a road trip that's between 600 to 800 miles in a day. In an EV, during the one or two extra stops I would make I would certainly be thinking "I would be hours ahead if I had a gas car." However, when I do stop for gas, I also stop to use a rest room, order food, buy snacks, and anything else I need to do. If I'm quick, it's 25 minutes but on average, it's closer to a 50 minute stop.

A 50 minute fast EV charge will get you quite a bit of range. There are plenty of people who make these stops in a much quicker time, but that's few people out of an already very small subset of drivers.
Extra drag during cold temperatures? Power loss using the AC in warm/hot temperatures? How are these points relevant to the benchmarks that EVs need to attain?

Ripping through the Nevada desert at 80mph with 107 deg F ambient temps with the AC blasting, and slipping through the Texas Freeze of 2021 at 0 deg F for hours and hours, for nearly 1,000 miles per day, are how I use a vehicle. Multiple times per year, year after year.

Regarding cost of ownership, the jury hasn't boarded the bus yet to come to the hearing. In other words, the jury is out. 10 years of mass production is needed to establish credibility for EVs in my view.

Until then, EVs are not ready for prime time. They might get there, one day. When the benchmarks are met.
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      04-15-2021, 09:46 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
Having a 25 gallon fuel tank to make up for terrible fuel economy is one way to get to the 500 mile per tank benchmark.

But both examples are still affected by extra drag during extremely cold temperatures and extra power loss from running the AC in extremely hot temperatures.

The cost to get an ICE vehicle to 150k miles to maintain the same performance is going to cost quite a bit compared to an EV.

The increasing cost of new car purchases, the decreasing purchasing power of the average consumer as reflected by long financing terms, and the looming "maybe one day soon" gas price increase is going to have more people look at the long term cost benefits of ownership of EVs compared to ICE vehicles.

The "clearly cheaper to own" is the much better benchmark for EVs.



I'm sure those 7 people in the whole world where this actually applies on a regular basis won't be forced into resorting to an EV for a long time.

Every year I do a road trip that's between 600 to 800 miles in a day. In an EV, during the one or two extra stops I would make I would certainly be thinking "I would be hours ahead if I had a gas car." However, when I do stop for gas, I also stop to use a rest room, order food, buy snacks, and anything else I need to do. If I'm quick, it's 25 minutes but on average, it's closer to a 50 minute stop.

A 50 minute fast EV charge will get you quite a bit of range. There are plenty of people who make these stops in a much quicker time, but that's few people out of an already very small subset of drivers.
I take 300-mile road trips at least 5 times a year. These are just a day out with my wife cruising around on a "Sunday drive". One trip we took was a weekend to Virginia Beach from say 50 miles north of Charlottesville. We took scenic roads vs. main interstates. Didn't see a EV charging station anywhere on the route. Yeah, planned right and using interstates, in a 300-mile Model 3 I could have made VA Beach without stopping. Once there, no charger was within walking of our hotel. On the way out, there was a Super Charger in Norfolk. Not in the best part of town and a 15 minutes in heavy traffic diversion from our route. So while the recharge time could be 30 minutes, another 30 minutes of time to get to the charger and back to our planned route. So an hour spent recharging for a 4-hour trip. Nope. I'll take a 5-minute recharge at one of the 20 or so has stations we passed along our route. Sorry, with EV, road tripping for the pleasure of road tripping is a PIA.
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      04-15-2021, 09:52 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post
Extra drag during cold temperatures? Power loss using the AC in warm/hot temperatures? How are these points relevant to the benchmarks that EVs need to attain?

Ripping through the Nevada desert at 80mph with 107 deg F ambient temps with the AC blasting, and slipping through the Texas Freeze of 2021 at 0 deg F for hours and hours, for nearly 1,000 miles per day, are how I use a vehicle. Multiple times per year, year after year.

Regarding cost of ownership, the jury hasn't boarded the bus yet to come to the hearing. In other words, the jury is out. 10 years of mass production is needed to establish credibility for EVs in my view.

Until then, EVs are not ready for prime time. They might get there, one day. When the benchmarks are met.
The point being, comfort consumers such as heat and AC in those varied climates reduce range, which diverts planned EV recharge stops. Yes, ICE AC drops fuel range a few percent, but you can refuel anywhere in 5 minutes.
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      04-15-2021, 10:27 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
The point being, comfort consumers such as heat and AC in those varied climates reduce range, which diverts planned EV recharge stops. Yes, ICE AC drops fuel range a few percent, but you can refuel anywhere in 5 minutes.
Agree. High energy consumers like HVAC have, in practical terms, zero impact on ICE transportation. Totally transparent to the experience.

On the contrary, high energy consumers and ambient conditions meaningfully impact EV range. This is unacceptable to me.

EVs are well suited to urban grocery getters that are plugged in every night. They are toys at this point.

Let's be clear, EV technology will improve. Carmakers have a 20%-30% cost improvement opportunity with an EV, compared to an ICE car. This is what is driving the EV trend, not saving the planet. But to gain significant penetration in the industry, the EV needs to climb over the benchmarks.

Today's EVs are toys.
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      04-15-2021, 10:53 AM   #33
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Lucid motors is the future of EV's. Check them out, if you haven't. IMO better looking cars and tech than Tesla. Future for them is really bright.
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      04-15-2021, 11:11 AM   #34
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I'm not going to lie. I am reaping a great deal of benefits driving my Chevy Volt. My commute is 100 miles round trip daily. I'm able to charge my car on a Level 2 charger at home and Level 1 at work. The electric range on the Volt is very short at 50 miles. When the weather is 60F or above, this is no issue (even with the air conditioner running) But when it's cold, I easily lose 15 miles of range just trying to heat up the cabin to a comfortable level.

Having over 400 miles range battery/electric with absolutely no range anxiety and the ability to have it both ways is wonderful.

Driving 2000 miles a month, my electric cost was $38 + $16.80 for 6 gallons of fuel during the cold hours of the day = $54.80

That's 2.7 cents per mile. I can see it going down to 2 cents per mile during spring and summer months.

I'm neither trying to be green nor fashionable. As a consumer I'm just in it for low cost and convenience.
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      04-15-2021, 11:15 AM   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
I'll settle for one that's not ugly as shit, or styled weirdly, and doesn't have a TV screen stuck on the dash.
The Mercedes EQS unveiled today continues to the EV tradition of looking like aborted fetuses.
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      04-15-2021, 12:01 PM   #36
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I have tried to stay away from this conversation for a long time. But I can’t anymore. So let me ask the question which popped into my head when I saw the thread title:

Who the f*** cares??

There are plenty of real performance cars out there. Neither EV tech, nor the infrastructure will close the gap to good old ICE before 2030. Till then long live 1000hp capable ICEs. You can ask about the next EV benchmark next decade.
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      04-15-2021, 12:11 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chassis View Post

EVs are well suited to urban grocery getters that are plugged in every night. They are toys at this point.
Correct..."urban grocery getter" is literally the ideal use case for an EV. It's also how the overwhelming majority of people use their cars. But then you say they are toys. Which is it? And why would you need to plug it in every night? I can't imagine too many people are driving 300+ miles to get groceries every single day. If you're really that far from the Piggly Wiggly, perhaps it would be wise to buy groceries which will last you longer than one day.

What we've learned is if you're the type of person who enjoys road trips for whatever reason, EVs are not for you. Demographically speaking, this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
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      04-15-2021, 12:27 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
The Mercedes EQS unveiled today continues to the EV tradition of looking like aborted fetuses.
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      04-15-2021, 01:03 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by FC4 View Post
Correct..."urban grocery getter" is literally the ideal use case for an EV. It's also how the overwhelming majority of people use their cars. But then you say they are toys. Which is it? And why would you need to plug it in every night? I can't imagine too many people are driving 300+ miles to get groceries every single day. If you're really that far from the Piggly Wiggly, perhaps it would be wise to buy groceries which will last you longer than one day.

What we've learned is if you're the type of person who enjoys road trips for whatever reason, EVs are not for you. Demographically speaking, this shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.
Both. EVs are urban grocery getters and toys. Like a golf cart.
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      04-15-2021, 01:39 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GenXer View Post
I'm not going to lie. I am reaping a great deal of benefits driving my Chevy Volt. My commute is 100 miles round trip daily. I'm able to charge my car on a Level 2 charger at home and Level 1 at work. The electric range on the Volt is very short at 50 miles. When the weather is 60F or above, this is no issue (even with the air conditioner running) But when it's cold, I easily lose 15 miles of range just trying to heat up the cabin to a comfortable level.

Having over 400 miles range battery/electric with absolutely no range anxiety and the ability to have it both ways is wonderful.

Driving 2000 miles a month, my electric cost was $38 + $16.80 for 6 gallons of fuel during the cold hours of the day = $54.80

That's 2.7 cents per mile. I can see it going down to 2 cents per mile during spring and summer months.

I'm neither trying to be green nor fashionable. As a consumer I'm just in it for low cost and convenience.
See, I keep saying this is the solution but EV nuts won't even discuss it.

I can a future where market share is evenly split between pure EV, Hybrid and ICE. I feel EV's will dominate the "second car in household" market but for a main car, people will want aback up of at least a hybrid until EV's can be charged in under 5 minutes.
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      04-16-2021, 05:44 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by XutvJet View Post
Lots of excellent points are being made.

Perhaps somewhat unrelated, but still interesting to consider, is that with an EV, you could theoretically make a body shell in any shape or form and use a very common chassis underpinning. It's basically like an RC car. Since the batteries are often in the floor and the motor(s) small, it's easy to make make a basic chassis that could be easily modified to work as a sports car, sedan, or SUV. Want to drive something that looks like a Ferrari? Easy. Want a sedan? Easy.

That's exactly the design GM developed in the late 1990's it was for a hydrogen cell EV.
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      04-16-2021, 05:52 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
I’m not sure what you mean by “people who actually use their vehicles” but this is sort of like declaring “I need to hammer a nail, my screwdriver can’t do that, screwdrivers aren’t ready yet”
Well not really, hammers are already invented and work great for driving nails. No one is trying to make (reinvent) a screwdriver into a hammer. ICE cars are already invented and they work great. EVs don't in comparison as overall transportation. Everyone who says they use their ICE to take long-distance drives and leave their EV at home, just makes the point. The EV can exist as an alternate choice of transportation in a 2-car household with the other car being ICE. Right now, as a standalone transportation device, EVs have shortfalls.
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      04-16-2021, 06:11 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by yousefnjr View Post
I’m not sure you can find an affordable and also no-compromise car of any type really, but the current crop of EVs are generally good cars if they fit your lifestyle. I mean if you have a place to charge overnight and don’t drive 100+miles each way to work. They can make great 2nd cars.
I'll vote that my E90 is such a car. It's provided a great deal of service to me for a very reasonable cost of 31 cents per mile. It's on it's 15th year of service come May 22nd. I've not had to compromise at all to use it.
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      04-16-2021, 07:33 AM   #44
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Well not really, hammers are already invented and work great for driving nails. No one is trying to make (reinvent) a screwdriver into a hammer. ICE cars are already invented and they work great. EVs don't in comparison as overall transportation. Everyone who says they use their ICE to take long-distance drives and leave their EV at home, just makes the point. The EV can exist as an alternate choice of transportation in a 2-car household with the other car being ICE. Right now, as a standalone transportation device, EVs have shortfalls.
Well said, far better than I am capable of saying it.
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