[Tonto_Goldstein]

Originally Posted by damnitBobby

I will gladly own another Z. I had a 350z MT for 7 years loved that car! Ended up trading it for a FRS MT but only kept that for a couple years.

Lack of MT will be the dealbreaker though. Only reason I haven't bought a Supra yet. Oh and if they stick a 4 cylinder in it that too will keep me away. Definitely gotta have a 6 cylinder twin turbo.

Agree 100%. I had a 350z for 9 years before swapping for my e92. Hearing people bag on the VQ is silly, that engine at 5K RPM's was a beast. Don't know why Nissan felt compelled to shorten the wheelbase for the 370z..one of the reasons I didn't get one. And the hideous headlights and taillights.

[Tonto_Goldstein]

Originally Posted by Moflow

You're right, the engine is that old, I thought the passage in question was about the engine and the chassis being that old, not just the engine. That's my bad.

However, calling the 370Z a 50 grand car kind of illustrates my point about the car being treated a bit unfairly by enthusiasts. Everyone knows a Mustang GT costs about $35K. But if you throw enough options at it, you can actually get the price of a GT above $60K, and yet nobody is sitting here telling people the Mustang GT costs $60K. The 370Z starts at $30K. It essentially has the same engine and transmission as the Nismo. Why do we talk about 370Z pricing based on the maximum amount the car costs, while every single other car gets judged on its base price?

I'm not even saying its a good buy at $30K mind you, i'm just saying its ended up on the wrong side of a certain amount of hyperbole that resides within the enthusiast community.

Nissan is the only one making a true sports car at an affordable price and should get credit for it. And cars with anemic 4 cyclinder motors don't count as sports cars, e.g. Miata, FRS. You can buy a used one all day long for under $20K. Only a moron would spend $50K on the Nismo, so people need to stop saying the Z costs $50K, that's just nonsense.

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by Tonto_Goldstein

Nissan is the only one making a true sports car at an affordable price and should get credit for it. And cars with anemic 4 cyclinder motors don't count as sports cars, e.g. Miata, FRS. You can buy a used one all day long for under $20K. Only a moron would spend $50K on the Nismo, so people need to stop saying the Z costs $50K, that's just nonsense.

Are you talking about the 370Z which is an outdated turd or the new car to which no price has been announced? That 3.7L engine sounds like a trash compactor once you get over 5k RPM and I've driven plenty of 4 Cylinder engines that didn't feel like they were going to self destruct near redline. Noisy ass manual transmission with clutch pedals that sometimes don't work. I'm not giving Nissan credit for anything. Maybe this new engine will do the car justice but the VQ was past its prime long before Nissan bored it out to 3.7L and the reason the 370Z sold poorly is because it just wasn't that great of a sports car as I would own a 4-Cylinder S2000 over a 370Z any day of the week.

[nick3753]

Originally Posted by jstein55

I'll wait till the car is shown and reviews come out, Nissan is a s*** show right now and I'm still sour from how they ruined Infiniti with the Q50/60, those cars drove nothing like the the G35/37, not to mention I find the 3.0TT has a lot less character than the 3.5 and 3.7, so right now I don't have much hope for the next Z.

Looks like we might have to wait quite a while. This MT article is calling it "2023 Z"


https://www.motortrend.com/news/2022...thing-we-know/

[RM7]

Originally Posted by Tonto_Goldstein

Nissan is the only one making a true sports car at an affordable price and should get credit for it. And cars with anemic 4 cyclinder motors don't count as sports cars, e.g. Miata, FRS. You can buy a used one all day long for under $20K. Only a moron would spend $50K on the Nismo, so people need to stop saying the Z costs $50K, that's just nonsense.

Not this **** again.

[PopsnBurbles]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

I would own a 4-Cylinder S2000 over a 370Z any day of the week.

I mean, the S2000 is one of the, if not the best reasonable/realistic sports car ever. I am not sure if there are many sports cars that can top the S2000.

240 hp
2.0L or 2.2L that's high revving
Regarded to have one of the best manual transmission experience ever
Lightweight
Great looks
Cheap to run
Reliable
Reasonably priced (not for long)
"Street cred" is high
Rare enough but not too rare to cause problems with parts
Great aftermarket support

What more can you ask for a car outside of practicality?

Honestly, I would own an S2000 over many other cars. Still, your point still stands about the 370Z.

[stein_325i]

Manual confirmed.

[freakystyly]

It's a sad time to be alive when you need to question whether or not a sports coupe will get a manual transmission.

The 350/70z never were amazing at any one thing, but the fact that they existed in the first place at least breathed some life into that segment.

[kyriian]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

Are you talking about the 370Z which is an outdated turd or the new car to which no price has been announced? That 3.7L engine sounds like a trash compactor once you get over 5k RPM and I've driven plenty of 4 Cylinder engines that didn't feel like they were going to self destruct near redline. Noisy ass manual transmission with clutch pedals that sometimes don't work. I'm not giving Nissan credit for anything. Maybe this new engine will do the car justice but the VQ was past its prime long before Nissan bored it out to 3.7L and the reason the 370Z sold poorly is because it just wasn't that great of a sports car as I would own a 4-Cylinder S2000 over a 370Z any day of the week.

VQ was outdated, and the platform itself is outdated in 2009, Nissan also never spent the kind of R&D required as they were too busy building the GTR to care at that time.

And you are not wrong, my non boosted NC Miata was far faster on the track than my 370Z, but then I never owned it long enough to find out consider how much I did not enjoy the drive, nor had it reliable enough to find how fast it can actually be

Originally Posted by freakystyly

The 350/70z never were amazing at any one thing, but the fact that they existed in the first place at least breathed some life into that segment.

There is one thing they were amazing at, its the amount of people that gawk at mine when I had mine, and aside from wheels and it being lowered was all it had, that car got more looks from passerbys than any of my other cars.

[damnitBobby]

Good call by Nissan to have a manual transmission. That along with a price around $40k and it will eat into Supra sales.

[stein_325i]

Originally Posted by damnitBobby

Good call by Nissan to have a manual transmission. That along with a price around $40k and it will eat into Supra sales.

The new supra has to be one of the biggest disappointments and failures of the 2019, I really hope the Z gets it right, but my overall feelings on Nissan will not change until I see a good product from them. Hopefully they will get back on track for the future.

[RM7]

Originally Posted by kyriian

VQ was outdated, and the platform itself is outdated in 2009, Nissan also never spent the kind of R&D required as they were too busy building the GTR to care at that time.

And you are not wrong, my non boosted NC Miata was far faster on the track than my 370Z, but then I never owned it long enough to find out consider how much I did not enjoy the drive, nor had it reliable enough to find how fast it can actually be


There is one thing they were amazing at, its the amount of people that gawk at mine when I had mine, and aside from wheels and it being lowered was all it had, that car got more looks from passerbys than any of my other cars.

The HO V6s seemed to have a very short life-span. The BMW I-6 had a much more successful run IMO, spanning decades. Most of the V6s being produced before those 240+hp V6s from major manufacturers were miserable around the 140-180hp level from a 3.0-4.0ish block, very low compression, just poor. Then came the high output V6s screaming up to around 350hp, except they had to of course rev up pretty high and the torque curve was pretty poor given the lack of displacement. Not bad engines at all, a huge improvement from before really, but they were so short lived because just a couple years later...mass turbos. And the turbos addressed the biggest issue, torque down low around 1500-5000rpm. Those V6s had to be driven at 9/10ths to be getting "the numbers" from them and experience the performance. Again, not bad engines, but for almost every real-world scenario, the turbo 4 and 6s were better, better acceleration response, more torque under the curve, etc.

Those V6s might do real well in a very lightweight chassis...but no one wants that these days, lots of people say they do, but they want all the creature comforts and a dedicated lightweight car is a very niche market, so economically, it just doesn't make much sense.

[supra93]

[hellrotm]

^

So, MT confirmed.

[super51fan]

Originally Posted by jstein55

The new supra has to be one of the biggest disappointments and failures of the 2019, I really hope the Z gets it right, but my overall feelings on Nissan will not change until I see a good product from them. Hopefully they will get back on track for the future.

Nissan will make a fool of Toyota if they can deliver a remotely competitive Z on their own. As good as the Supra is, I still can't believe a Cayman competitor is the best they can come up with the amount of resources at their disposal.

The bar is so low that as long as the new Z looks better than a cobbled together mess and has a manual trans, I believe it will still sell better than the Supra despite the Supra likely having much quicker track times and a better architecture (assuming the new Z is on the same old platform)

[RMachuca3d]

Originally Posted by super51fan

Nissan will make a fool of Toyota if they can deliver a remotely competitive Z on their own. As good as the Supra is, I still can't believe a Cayman competitor is the best they can come up with the amount of resources at their disposal.

The bar is so low that as long as the new Z looks better than a cobbled together mess and has a manual trans, I believe it will still sell better than the Supra despite the Supra likely having much quicker track times and a better architecture (assuming the new Z is on the same old platform)

I'm afraid the bean counters at nissan will neuter the Z even before its unveiled, demanding the CHEAPEST parts all over. I've owned a few nissans, and the cheapness of them was evident inside and out.

300+hp, manual, LSD standard and not a pig like the last few Z's and they might have something, otherwise the zupra will still be the #1 option for affordable sport coupes.

[nick3753]

Originally Posted by super51fan

Nissan will make a fool of Toyota if they can deliver a remotely competitive Z on their own. As good as the Supra is, I still can't believe a Cayman competitor is the best they can come up with the amount of resources at their disposal.

The bar is so low that as long as the new Z looks better than a cobbled together mess and has a manual trans, I believe it will still sell better than the Supra despite the Supra likely having much quicker track times and a better architecture (assuming the new Z is on the same old platform)

Unless of course Toyota now decides to put in a manual. The Z is still a year or maybe even 2 away from being out. Or perhaps the next Toyota 86 gets enough of a power bump to make it the better buy over the Z.

[super51fan]

Originally Posted by RMachuca3d

I'm afraid the bean counters at nissan will neuter the Z even before its unveiled, demanding the CHEAPEST parts all over. I've owned a few nissans, and the cheapness of them was evident inside and out.

300+hp, manual, LSD standard and not a pig like the last few Z's and they might have something, otherwise the zupra will still be the #1 option for affordable sport coupes.

It will definitely be neutered due to the state of Nissan, but they currently have all the pieces to make a car that outsells the Supra. Because of this, they will very little development costs assuming they are using the same platform. Although that would mean it probably will be outperformed by the Supra, it doesn't need to be the better car to be an engaging driver's car or to outsell the Supra.

Using the Q50 as a base for pricing (which is a 300hp TT V6 for $36k) and prices of 370z performance options (which is $4k for LSD and larger brakes) I think they could have a pricing structure like this with both 6mt and auto options across the board:

Base: 300hp - $32k
Base w/ sport package: 300hp, LSD, big brakes, optional leather - $36k
Sport: 400hp - $42k
Nismo (delayed release): 500hp - $50k

This pricing structure greatly undercuts the Supra even if it doesn't perform as well.

[super51fan]

Originally Posted by nick3753

Unless of course Toyota now decides to put in a manual. The Z is still a year or maybe even 2 away from being out. Or perhaps the next Toyota 86 gets enough of a power bump to make it the better buy over the Z.

That is true, I do think the Supra will remain the better car and a 6mt is icing on the cake. But I do think Nissan will have an upperhand in pricing and appearance which are incredibly important in this demographic (I personally believe appearance is a huge factor in the emotional car buying experience.)

[heavyD^2]

Originally Posted by super51fan

That is true, I do think the Supra will remain the better car and a 6mt is icing on the cake. But I do think Nissan will have an upperhand in pricing and appearance which are incredibly important in this demographic (I personally believe appearance is a huge factor in the emotional car buying experience.)

The Supra is a head turner as all the reviewers comment about the attention it receives and the Z looks fairly vanilla from the renders. If it comes down to appearance I think the Z will come out on the losing end for most unless it looks better than the renders.

[NytWolf]

It would be sad to see the Z finally fall behind to the Supra. From conception the (Celica/)Supra had always been Toyota's response to the Datsun/Nissan Z. The Celica to the 240Z, 260Z, and 280Z. The Celica Supra to the 300ZX. The Supra to the 300ZX. For the 350Z/370Z, Toyota had nothing. Toyota kept teasing a new Supra ... for years and years. Everyone became tired of the teasers and by the time the new Supra came out, a lot of people were disappointed. They expected something like the concept car. On top of it, it isn't really even a Toyota. I think Nissan milked the 350Z and 370Z long enough, but with bringing over the GT-R, Nissan has a switched its halo car from the Z to the GT-R. Give Nissan credit though; they didn't need to co-develop a low-profit margin sports car like the mega-financial corporate that Toyota is. The only true way to tell for sure is to wait until the Z actually comes and see how Toyota responds.

I have faith in Nissan but they were at the verge of bankruptcy even before Ghosn. He didn't leave them in any better shape either, but I do give them credit for updating the Z finally.

[super51fan]

Originally Posted by heavyD^2

The Supra is a head turner as all the reviewers comment about the attention it receives and the Z looks fairly vanilla from the renders. If it comes down to appearance I think the Z will come out on the losing end for most.

No doubt it is a head turner, it looks incredibly bold and aggressive is undoubtedly a sports car. It is near impossible for a car with those proportions, long hood, short deck, low, and wide, to not turn heads. These proportions are what make seeing it in person look so much better.

But with that being said, the car lacks any sort of design cohesion. There is not a single line (using the artistic definition of the movement of your eye though an object and not a stylized line) that flows from the front to the back of the car. As your eye moves across the body it is constantly broken up by stylized lines and strange lumps. This is the polar opposite of timeless design and will not age well.

Vanilla is not a bad thing with the correct proportions, and I would argue simple design and aggressive shape is a good thing. A good example of this is the pre-facelift AMG GT since it is one of the few other cars remaining with such proportions. Even though the design elements are vanilla, the aggressive shape creates a car that looks great despite this and will continue to look great for a long time.