[Dog Face Pony Soldier]

My thinking is AT have improved enough that their overall performance, reliability, and value has eclipsed DCT.

[G35POPPEDMYCHERRY]

I can smell a manual vs AT derailing this thread, its only a matter of time

[OG///M]

Actually like the jerkiness of the DCT, feels more alive and more character.
Then again, I'm sure most don't feel this way and probably why BMW has repositioned the M3/4 to be a GT with comfort more in mind than before.

Or it could just be cheaper to put a ZF8 AT in there than develop a bespoke DCT.

[zx10guy]

Originally Posted by Tacoma

I don't have time to check all the old threads about DCT vs. Slushbox AT's but I'm pretty sure complaints of lack of smoothness or driveability of BMW DCT's were very few if not negligible, certainly insufficient to now raise it as an issue and rationalization for its seeming demise.

On the contrary, any slight jerkiness felt was attributed the superiority of the DCT's direct gear connection (no torque converter) for better road feel that enthusiasts want and real enthusiasts would never buy a slushbox, so they swore.

I'm still driving a manual, so no dog in this fight, but I see this as another data point of BMW abandoning its enthusiast base moving towards the center all in pursuit of a greater profits. Nothing wrong with that but just call it what it is.

A little ridiculous making statements about the complaints of BMW's DCT being negligible or insignificant without owning said trans or even doing any research.

I happen to own said DCT and do have experience with the problems. Those of us that have a problematic DCT won't characterize the issues as some enthusiast characteristic. Hitting the gas pedal expecting the car to move but it doesn't when you're trying to merge into an opening in traffic will change your mind quickly about the enthusiast nature of the transmission. Or when you're coming to a stop with foot on the brake and then all of a sudden the car jumps forward. That'll will also get your adrenaline and heart rate going but not because you're wringing the car out.

No question the trans is great when doing spirited driving. But it can be an absolute nightmare at a stop to low speeds. This is why I made the statement that no DCT should be in a daily driven car. I had a few moments where I thought I was going to hit the car in front of me or an oncoming car was going to cream the side/back of my car because the car wouldn't move when there was an opening in traffic.

This is not to mention a known issue with the gasket around the mechatronics unit that has a potential to leak trans fluid. If that happens to fix it, you're dropping the trans to gain access.

[David70]

Combination of economics and some amount of complaints. Either use the AT that is used everywhere (cheap and without a lot of Engineering/tuning to make is work well), reliable and no real complaints or a DCT which some part of the consumers complain about as not being smooth. Published numbers (0-whatever) don't change enough to matter.

In addition the AT gets closer to the DCT performance wise and the benefits gets smaller.

I much prefer a DCT over an AT but can see a number of reasons they don't want to bother.

I have the similar complaint with "M's" not really getting a special engine. They also don't do it for the cost and because so many don't care enough for them to bother. Numbers are still great and the engine they pick is good enough.

[fastboatster]

Not a fan of dcts either. Great concept in theory, not so much in practice. Zf 8hp is hardly heavier and larger than comparable dcts. 8hp70 is hardly heavier than GS7D36SG while having larger official torque rating and probably having more in reserve. I don’t think that weight/size argument is valid simply because using planetary gear sets and a few clutches arranged around it in a radial fashion takes up a lot less space than having several large gears on 2 separate shafts. Larger gears also means more weight. Why wouldn’t we also call pre2017 Honda transmissions “enthusiast” if they are also using the same gearsets as manual transmissions to derive the gear ratios? Anyway, zf 8 is almost as fast shifting as many dcts, a lot more reliable, very light for what it is, has been continuously refined by multiple OEMs and has a huge knowledge base unlike many dcts which are often brand specific. There’s almost no performance penalty in any scenario and it has some killer features like direct shifts from 8 to 2nd or shifting up and down by disengaging and engaging one clutch only. If DCT preselected one gear but you actually need to get another then that shift will take a long time resulting in less than responsive behavior

[TheMidnightNarwhal]

Originally Posted by AlexFL

it’s also very reliable. and you can add 40% tq without fucking up the transmission. while DCT is clearly more fun, ZF8 should be the modders choice.

Manual would be the modders and fun choice IMO.

[tranquility]

So it's mainly a cost issue then? It's always kinda annoying that, for example, the big Lambo has the inferior single-clutch while the baby Lambo has the superior DCT. They should at least have the option for DCT.

Anyway, I prefer DCTs due to the lowest power loss, right, even compared to MTs? For sure it's better than slushboxes. The faster shifts/lighter components, etc, are just added bonuses.

I personally never felt anything significant/tangible to say that a DCT is clunky, it performs well imo given there are actual clutches being operated, so how can one fairly compare it to a true AT whose primarily purpose is smoothness? Doesn't make sense to do that. Ofc it's way smoother than MTs, but anyway, that's not a main selling pt for me. I like sporty cars, I don't really care about ultra-comfort.

[Moflow]

Why? Because its cheaper for them and for 90 percent of car buyers it's the right choice.

And what about the other 10 percent? Well. Here's what they're going to give up:

1. High redlines. This has always been a weakness for torque converters. Witness the 197 hp Mazda RX-8, that thing got a 30 hp nerf with the auto thanks to making its power so high up in the rev range. Or take a look at the S55 vs the S58 (7200 RPM vs 7600 RPM, guess which one is hooked up to the ZF8 and which one is mated to DCTs)

2. Consistent downshifts. Torque converters are getting really good at upshifting with lightning quickness! But the downshifts....well. They tend to take quite a bit longer and often times there's a lot of reluctance to drop a gear. All of that's really only a problem if you like twisty roads or race tracks though. If you just want to get arrested for going 130 in a 40 mph zone, a torque converter auto will do you just fine.

3. Consistent operation. This can probably be solved by proper cooling, but torque converter automatics can overheat with too much shifting (especially high-rpm downshifts.) Again, not a problem if you're just going to drag race your car for 10 seconds. A bigger problem on a race track or a twisty road. But like I said, this can be solved with proper transmission cooling so as long as you trust car manufacturers to not cheap out (wait...why are talking about this again? oh yeah because manufacturers cheaped out and didn't want to use DCT's anymore) we should be fine.

I'd be pretty angry at this general trend if I were a DCT enthusiast. A bunch of casuals just descended on the performance cars we love in such great numbers, that they basically killed a big part of what makes them special with their calls for civility, usability and smoothness.

But of course, i'm not a DCT enthisiast. I'm a manual enthusiast, so instead I'm just gonna sit here like a smug little asshole and be like "Yeah? You don't like it when a bunch of filthy casuals ruin your cars by demanding that they be easier to drive and more livable??? WOW. THAT MUST SUCK, CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT THAT'S LIKE....."

(but also, just so we're clear, i'm mostly just joking around here. A car is way too expensive of a purchase to not buy it exactly as you want it, so i don't REALLY blame anyone for just getting what they like. Even if they like different stuff than me)

I can smell a manual vs AT derailing this thread, its only a matter of time

I'm here to get shit started, don't worry!

[F32Fleet]

DCT truly only shines on the track and I suspect she to increases in size the M3/4/5 etc are less likely to spend a significant amount of time on the track. It would not surprise me if BMWNA had data on the predominant operating environment of these vehicles. Another thing is that the power:weight ratio is getting to the point where AWD is the only reliable way to safely put down power. There are a lot of owners with more money than sense and consequently do not have the skillset to briskly drive modified versions of these cars.

[RugbyBro]

Primarily cost + manufacturing efficiencies, however, ZF 8AT is practically as fast, lighter, handles more power, and is smoother than a typical DCT. Seriously its a fantastic transmission. Realistically, the only people who truly appreciate DCTs are enthusiasts and BMW (or any other mainstream manufacturer except Porsche) seemingly DGAF about that anymore - and why should they, we don't drive their top line. DCT in mainstream cars just doesn't fit the current consumer market. I will personally always love my DCT and think they'll always have a place in motorsport, but really only in track focused consumer cars (maybe special edition cars like a GTS trim) and maybe racecars as a more durable, less consumable intensive dogbox alternative.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by Moflow

Why? Because its cheaper for them and for 90 percent of car buyers it's the right choice.

And what about the other 10 percent? Well. Here's what they're going to give up:

1. High redlines. This has always been a weakness for torque converters. Witness the 197 hp Mazda RX-8, that thing got a 30 hp nerf with the auto thanks to making its power so high up in the rev range. Or take a look at the S55 vs the S58 (7200 RPM vs 7600 RPM, guess which one is hooked up to the ZF8 and which one is mated to DCTs)

2. Consistent downshifts. Torque converters are getting really good at upshifting with lightning quickness! But the downshifts....well. They tend to take quite a bit longer and often times there's a lot of reluctance to drop a gear. All of that's really only a problem if you like twisty roads or race tracks though. If you just want to get arrested for going 130 in a 40 mph zone, a torque converter auto will do you just fine.

3. Consistent operation. This can probably be solved by proper cooling, but torque converter automatics can overheat with too much shifting (especially high-rpm downshifts.) Again, not a problem if you're just going to drag race your car for 10 seconds. A bigger problem on a race track or a twisty road. But like I said, this can be solved with proper transmission cooling so as long as you trust car manufacturers to not cheap out (wait...why are talking about this again? oh yeah because manufacturers cheaped out and didn't want to use DCT's anymore) we should be fine.

I'd be pretty angry at this general trend if I were a DCT enthusiast. A bunch of casuals just descended on the performance cars we love in such great numbers, that they basically killed a big part of what makes them special with their calls for civility, usability and smoothness.

But of course, i'm not a DCT enthisiast. I'm a manual enthusiast, so instead I'm just gonna sit here like a smug little asshole and be like "Yeah? You don't like it when a bunch of filthy casuals ruin your cars by demanding that they be easier to drive and more livable??? WOW. THAT MUST SUCK, CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT THAT'S LIKE....."

(but also, just so we're clear, i'm mostly just joking around here. A car is way too expensive of a purchase to not buy it exactly as you want it, so i don't REALLY blame anyone for just getting what they like. Even if they like different stuff than me)



I'm here to get shit started, don't worry!

Sounds like all the right reasons to drive a manual

[M5Rick]

No DCT? BMW becoming snowflakes.

[David70]

Originally Posted by F32Fleet

DCT truly only shines on the track and I suspect she to increases in size the M3/4/5 etc are less likely to spend a significant amount of time on the track. It would not surprise me if BMWNA had data on the predominant operating environment of these vehicles. Another thing is that the power:weight ratio is getting to the point where AWD is the only reliable way to safely put down power. There are a lot of owners with more money than sense and consequently do not have the skillset to briskly drive modified versions of these cars.

I don't disagree but the M line didn't used to be about building cars for how people normally use them.

With the "shine on the track", same could be said about the whole M line of cars, tiny percentage of any cars time is at any limit or getting the most of it. If the decision on how to build a car is actually how people use them most of the time then there's no reason to build anything past an Accord. The "M" line used to cater to the enthusiast but seems to continue to get watered down with a focus on 0-60 using launch control.

With AWD, besides inclement weather, as DCT shines only at the track the same can be said for AWD and the never ending 0-60 being the overall goal. Interested in seeing how often the average M5 buyer is actually using AWD on dry roads. I think AWD is one of the worst things you can add to a sports sedan, carry about 150-200 lbs all the time, on the front axle, for the occasional time from a stop you want that extra small benefit of increased acceleration. It does benefit the owners ability to talk about his acceleration times, whether or not he ever goes through the process of activating and using launch control.

If the goal is to build cars for how people actually use them, cater to the masses and for the worst of the unskilled drivers the chances of building something exciting will continue to go down.

[GenXer]

I love the 8spd auto in my 440i. It's smooth and responsive. It shifts instantly at the tap of the flappy paddle. It holds any gear for as long as you want. It's night and day from my C7 8spd auto which shifted so slowly that you might as well not bother to use the paddles at all. The VW DSG I had in my Eos was herky jerky and not at all fun.

[clutchdj]

R&T had a very good article about this a few months ago. Bottom line is cost/longevity.

[5.M0NSTER]

Originally Posted by GenXer

I love the 8spd auto in my 440i. It's smooth and responsive. It shifts instantly at the tap of the flappy paddle. It holds any gear for as long as you want. It's night and day from my C7 8spd auto which shifted so slowly that you might as well not bother to use the paddles at all. The VW DSG I had in my Eos was herky jerky and not at all fun.

My wife has the VW Golf with 7 speed DCT. I hate that trans with a passion. It shifts fast at speed (up and down), which is nice, but the car has 150hp so why bother anyway?? But around town it is jerky and shaky. It really re-ignited my dislike for anything I can't shift myself.

But on the flip side my grocery getter back home is a 6 speed torque converter-ed auto, and there I don't care. It's smooth and quiet. And slow. But I don't care.

For a fun car there is only one option, and it doesn't shift until you press the 3rd pedal.

[F32Fleet]

Originally Posted by David70

I don't disagree but the M line didn't used to be about building cars for how people normally use them.

With the "shine on the track", same could be said about the whole M line of cars, tiny percentage of any cars time is at any limit or getting the most of it. If the decision on how to build a car is actually how people use them most of the time then there's no reason to build anything past an Accord. The "M" line used to cater to the enthusiast but seems to continue to get watered down with a focus on 0-60 using launch control.

With AWD, besides inclement weather, as DCT shines only at the track the same can be said for AWD and the never ending 0-60 being the overall goal. Interested in seeing how often the average M5 buyer is actually using AWD on dry roads. I think AWD is one of the worst things you can add to a sports sedan, carry about 150-200 lbs all the time, on the front axle, for the occasional time from a stop you want that extra small benefit of increased acceleration. It does benefit the owners ability to talk about his acceleration times, whether or not he ever goes through the process of activating and using launch control.

If the goal is to build cars for how people actually use them, cater to the masses and for the worst of the unskilled drivers the chances of building something exciting will continue to go down.

Perhaps the definition of "enthusiast" has changed?

Donning the rose colored glasses I seem to remember back in the early 2000's owners were just as likely to track their M3 than not. Track days were full of e36's and e30's. Automatics were just bad and there were still plenty of drivers who were familiar with a manual. Modifications were typically limited to brakes, exhaust, cams, CAI and maybe a minor software modification. Driving schools were frequently spoken about. Low mileage leases weren't a thing.

Slowly but surely over the years things like low end torque for daily comfort, NAV, Tech, became a priority. Low mileage short-tern leases became a thing. Track schools were an afterthought replaced with tunes, intercoolers, lowered suspensions, aero-parts.

Over the last couple of years it seems as if it's only about checking boxes on the latest mods, pouring thousands of dollars into a commuter car that's going to get turned over for another in 24 months just so the cycle can repeat. I guess it's why I rarely see any BMW let alone a M-car on the highway outside a major city. Initial owners don't have the miles to give on roadtrips. It's crazy when I think about it because these cars shine on the open road.

Funny how you mentioned a Honda Accord. Over 15 yrs ago Mike Miller (BMWCCA Tech Talk guru) had suggested that the best track car in terms of cost to operate and fun factor could be the Accord.

[VisualEcho]

Enthusiasts get used to DCT's because they want that performance feel, but in all reality, they're crap compared to AT's in real-world driving. Yeah, yeah, yeah, you can say you like yours, but say that after you've driven the exact same car with AT.

I'm sure cost and emissions comes into it, but really, unless you're really just trying to eek out every bit of sport feel and performance, AT FTW.

[tranquility]

Hmmm, I guess there's a WIDE range when it comes to DCT 'smoothness'...again, why are we using this as the main criterion? Just from personal experience, my DCT is freaking smooth, couldn't tell the difference between that and an AT, so, I dunno how some ppl can blanket-state all DCTs are 'crap', that's just an outright lie.

If you want pure performance, DCT.
If you wanna have 100% control over and change gears yourself, MT.
If you wanna go for 'smoothness', whatever that means, buy a couch. We're operating *moving* vehicles, so ofc things shift and move about, deal w it and don't exaggerate like you're getting knocked upside the head every time a DCT shifts, maybe a SCT or a really really really crap DCT.

Bottom line, car makers are cheaping out, right?, so maybe the gap is lessening but don't say that AT>DCT generally-speaking in terms of performance (i.e. power loss and shift times, maybe wt also).

[fastboatster]

I think AT DCT performance gap is mostly a fiction, not to mention DCT is an automatic, too. Porsche pdk and bmw dct list their shift times as 200ms, same as well programmed zf 8hp. As for the losses, very tough call on this one. Both at and dct produce most of the losses from 1. Mechanical losses in the oil pump. Hydraulic pressure is required to apply the clutches in both cases. Roughly the same here 2. Open clutches drag. Something like zf 8 has only 2 open clutches at all times while dcts in general have one open clutch. Not much of a difference here.
So I don’t know. My personal opinion after owning a car with DL501 Dct aka dsg and having it repaired and repairing it a second time myself is this is mostly marketing. This whole bs started when VW group started to push their dual clutch technology in early 2000s as an “enthusiast” alternative to manual transmissions. Yes, those dct were better than old 4 speed torque converter transmissions, but times have changed. Not to offend anyone, but dct is often a cop out when somebody doesn’t want a manual transmission, and that’s why they used to sell)

[tranquility]

How is it fiction (DCT>AT re performance) if virtually all supercars have DCTs...why not just have ATs and be done w it? Regrets some ppl have had prbs w repairing their faulty DCTs but that's not really the pt here. The power loss is definitely bigger for AT but dunno how severe. It's just common sense since there's no direct linkage and it goes through a tq converter, right?

As an aside, that's the stuff car makers annoyingly omit, who cares about having massive hp if the car weighs like 3 tons? Better to have power/wt figures and also power at the wheel instead of engine figures.