[Golfman]

Originally Posted by Argo

Got some more info: The person unloading cars off the truck allegedly backed another car (an i4) into the passenger door.

Allegedly there's "no paint damage" but there is a dent that does need to go to the body shop (IMO it would still need to be resurfaced though because impacts still stress the clear coat). I'm supposed to get some pictures soon.

I hope that you get this resolved to your satisfaction. Keep us informed.

[Argo]

Alright, today I just spent the day thinking about other stuff, replying to everyone here.

Originally Posted by MisanoblueZ4

Man it’s hard to see well enough on that video, cloudy skies and reflections from buildings. Any chance you can get down there to see it in person before repairs are initiated?

This dealer is about an hour away, so I'm really more interested in checking it out after the fix. I might do that next week unless I decide to pass on this.

Originally Posted by khp3655

The Carfax is a real issue. If the damage is reported, I'd pass unless there was significant discount.

I'd ask for a new door or probably pass on the car. That seems like it would be easier to replace as a whole unit and it could be replaced later on, so you could enjoy the car while the new door was on order.

I also think patience and passing is probably your best path.

Thanks. SA mentioned their shop doesn't really do Carfax reports, which honestly makes sense because I'm sure plenty of cars get some minor damage during delivery. I will ask to see what exactly the body shop did.

Originally Posted by eclz

What awful news. I feel like I have survivor guilt for having made it off the same boat without incident.

It would seem like in order for the car to be sold to anyone, it will have to be repaired. If they're going to have to repair it anyway, why wouldn't they agree to do that first and then allow you to decide what you want to do on the basis of how it came out? Preferably the repair could be evaluated by an independent expert. That provides both you and the dealer with useful additional information.

With negotiations in general you want to try to be on the same side of the table looking at the problem together. If the dealer's going to try to take advantage of your disappointment and impatience or in any other way tries to be adversarial in the process, I would take my business elsewhere. They're in a pretty weak position here.

This one almost made it, it was the delivery people unloading it at the dealer that dinged it. I mentioned for the time being I will need to get more info and think about how to move forward. The dealer said ordering it again is definitely on the table, so at least they're being gracious about it.

Originally Posted by Wynnsiensheng

Personally, I think the first issue is car fax. If the damage is recorded there, I’d suggest that is a deal breaker. It would be for me.

The second issue is how I would feel each day knowing my car had a repaired door. Pretty sure it would look ok, but how would I feel about it? That’s a personal decision for each individual to make.

Only after answering those questions would I get into monetary discounts, assuming of course that the first two questions get answered in such way to require such discussions.

Honestly it's not something that would bother me every day IF the repair is done correctly. Dings and scrapes in cars are a fact of life, but for a new car of course I'd prefer to gen an unblemished one.

Originally Posted by tracer bullet

On the upside, the damage is hard to see in the video so it's very possible PDR can take care of it. I'd be a lot less worried than I was when I started at the top of the thread. If PDR can make it like new, I'd still try to get a little more discount or some other freebie like oil changes for 5 years but it could very well turn out that this is no big deal after all.

Yeah there's no paint damage at all it seems (or at least none that couldn't buff-out). The damage visible in the video is the ding above the door crease (see how the light doesn't all reflect uniformly.

Originally Posted by DDS2015

Unfortunately damage during shipping happens all the time. Accidents happen. But this is why businesses have insurance.

That being said, the dealer has a very vested interest in selling you this car. They don’t want you to walk away or order another. So if it were me I’d work with them for a reasonable solution. That door will need to be replaced since bmw doesn’t sell doorskins by themselves anymore. So you have the panel gap, and the paint match to worry about.

This will likely not go through any insurance whatsoever as the cost to repair vs their premiums isn’t worth making a claim. But the body shop may put this on car fax because they track things internally by the VIN. Most dealer affiliated body shops will have lifetime warranties on their work though.

Agreed. This is something they'll cover on their end. I actually think it's the shipping company that will be footing the bill, as the dealer hadn't really taken possession as the cars were unloaded.

Originally Posted by Westside Guy

The most important issue is whether or not it gets reported to Carfax. At this point in time, there is no way for the OP to determine how much this could hurt his pricing when he goes to sell it in a few years. These shops record VIN numbers in their records so I would assume that this repair would be reported.

Maybe, but the SA said this is a shop the dealer uses and that it wouldn't report (and I'm inclined to believe them).

Originally Posted by Bimmerfun82

I would opt for another z4 myself. Hard to know what the extent of the damage is.

Seems fully cosmetic in this case. But obviously I'd have to see it in person to assess.

Originally Posted by ebirotedu

Looks like an opportunity to get a brand new Z4 with minor and easily repaired cosmetic damage at an even bigger discount than the one you already negotiated.

Just spitballing, but I’d ask for an additional 5% off MSRP. That’s probably double what a traditional diminished value claim might be. But this is a brand new car and you’re not obligated to take ownership giving you a lot of leverage with the dealer, quite unlike a negotiating a diminished value claim with your insurance company.

Ask your insurance agent if they have any recommendations on how they’d value the car, since they’re going to be insuring this as yet untitled but already repaired vehicle.

The dealers only other option is to try to sell it as a new but repaired vehicle and hope someone is willling to pay more than the 10% off MSRP offer you made. That could happen - someone at the dealership might recognize it as a deal or know someone who’s in the market for a deal

My $.02

Would I really want to loop in my insurance into this? I don't think insurance cares if you were to buy a used vehicle with previous incidents. That said, I do agree about the negotiating position. I think they're going to have a hard time moving this car if I pass.

Originally Posted by BEAR-AvHistory

Not sure how much leverage there is in a turn down. How many damaged in shipping cars that are dealer orders get fixed & sold without the buyer ever knowing it was a 'repaired' vehicle?

Also wonder what BMWUSA's policy is with the dealers with shipping damaged cars. Is the dealer compensated in any way?

Would look at the repair, see what the dealer is offering, then decide if I wanted the car or not.

FWIW. I had a 2018 440's Mineral Gray Metallic driver side door pushed in when it was backed into while parked in a school pickup line. The drivers insurance paid & my dealers inhouse BMW/Porsche body shop did the repair. Was imposable to tell it was ever damaged.

EDIT 40+ currant comments on the M3/4 board over the same issue.

Thanks I'll take a look at this thread!

Originally Posted by ebirotedu

I think if the repair is reported to CarFax then you have leverage.

And it may vary by state, but I'd be surprised if the dealership wasn't obligated to tell potential buyers that a repair was made to a vehicle that's never been titled before.

EDIT - quick Google search found that Maryland has a 3% threshold for disclosing repaired damage to a new untitled vehicle to potential buyers.

As the OP is in California, which is probably the most consumer friendly state in the union, I will hazard that the dealer will likely to disclose the repair as a matter of state law.

I will investigate what the law is in CA. These days any body work is at least 3%.

Originally Posted by rikwynnpa

I would never take a new car that's got aftermarket paint on it right off the truck. The damage will end up listed in carfax and later on you'll get hit with a big drop in value. I had some minor bumper cover damage after getting tapped from behind in the rain which required $1100 in refinish and spot paint repair. When I went to trade in the car all the dealers tried to screw me out of like $2000 of value. Make the dealer eat the car and get a new one.

Fair, but if I get it for less on the way in, I can deal with getting less on the way out.

Originally Posted by Golfman

I hope that you get this resolved to your satisfaction. Keep us informed.

Will definitely do. I'm not in a rush at all so that puts me in a good position.

[StanDiego]

Originally Posted by Argo

They mentioned their PDR guy had already given it a shot. I do see some dents along the crease (the light doesn't reflect right) so I can see why they sent it to a body shop.

As I understand it, dents along a crease are a challenge for PDR.

[MisanoblueZ4]

Was reading the thread in the M3 section, dealer removed the bumper, repaired and painted. Seems the OP is content with progress, he has to fly from FL to NY to get the car.

Lots of ways to ease the mind (this happens often to new cars, won’t be the last ding/scrape, not museum pieces etc) but there is still disappointment a new ordered car will knowingly have been repaired before possession taken.

[Westside Guy]

Originally Posted by MisanoblueZ4

Was reading the thread in the M3 section, dealer removed the bumper, repaired and painted. Seems the OP is content with progress, he has to fly from FL to NY to get the car.

Lots of ways to ease the mind (this happens often to new cars, won’t be the last ding/scrape, not museum pieces etc) but there is still disappointment a new ordered car will knowingly have been repaired before possession taken.

Yes, a good body shop will do an acceptable job but at the end of the day, the biggest issue is a CarFax report that will affect the value of the car when one goes to sell it.

[bacampbe]

Originally Posted by Westside Guy

Yes, a good body shop will do an acceptable job but at the end of the day, the biggest issue is a CarFax report that will affect the value of the car when one goes to sell it.

What actually triggers a CarFax report? I've had a number of minor bumps and dings repaired over the years that never showed up on a report. Does an insurance claim trigger it? It seems like the dealer would have no incentive to do so in this case, unless maybe their insurance reports it.

OTOH, I've had an appraiser take one glance at what I thought was a really good repaint from years before and ask me about the repair.

[Westside Guy]

Originally Posted by bacampbe

What actually triggers a CarFax report? I've had a number of minor bumps and dings repaired over the years that never showed up on a report. Does an insurance claim trigger it? It seems like the dealer would have no incentive to do so in this case, unless maybe their insurance reports it.

OTOH, I've had an appraiser take one glance at what I thought was a really good repaint from years before and ask me about the repair.

If the dealer does any work on a car, the VIN number is entered into the records. If you ever look at a Carfax report, you’ll see oil services etc. and it’s all based on that VIN number information.

[GerryC]

Originally Posted by bacampbe

What actually triggers a CarFax report? I've had a number of minor bumps and dings repaired over the years that never showed up on a report. Does an insurance claim trigger it? It seems like the dealer would have no incentive to do so in this case, unless maybe their insurance reports it.

OTOH, I've had an appraiser take one glance at what I thought was a really good repaint from years before and ask me about the repair.

It’s a decision on the part of the shop whether to report to CarFax. Having a free CarFax account it was apparent that not all shops participate with CarFax. CarFax actively solicits efforts to get shops to participate.

As you mentioned, I also have had several body repairs that were never reported to CarFax. I also noticed that my dealer started reporting routine service to CarFax about the time they started including “Link to free CarFax Report” in their used car listings. CarFax does have access to public databases so things like title changes, registration renewal, smog checks, and branded titles do show up.

As I said, the body shop I used did not report to CarFax. A friend had a fairly extensive fender dent (got the inner fender as well) on his M3 repaired at a BMW dealer’s body shop. He asked them about CarFax. They said they don’t report the repairs because as far as they were concerned the repair returned the car to factory spec condition and didn’t justify the report and any associated diminished value.

[rikwynnpa]

Someone will have to pay money to fix this damage. That company likely has insurance. That insurance company will likely report the repair to Carfax which makes money by reporting stuff. I had a nothing small plastic bumper cover repair done once that was less than $1K and 2 yrs later when I went to trade Carfax had the entire thing misrepresented. Carfax said there was damage to a quarterpanel that required metal repair. Total lie. Dealers all wanted to deduce $2K from my trade value. Assume this repair will be reported on your car to Carfax and take action as appropriate.

[Opie55]

If you keep the car several years, then the hit for CarFax damage is less of an issue. However, what I would insist on now for that future sale is a clear still photo of the damage, not that video the sales guy should have been embarrassed to send. I imagine myself as your future buyer. I have 100 of these to choose from and I see yours has "right side damage" with no photo and I wonder what it was and how bad. So I pass on your car. Minor cosmetics and I don't care so much.

I'm always amazed by all the salvage titled car on eBay where the damage is described as minor. If it was minor, then how did it get totaled by insurance? No photos, no buy.

[Argo]

Update

I was in Asia earlier this month and just got back to town. Touched base with the dealer and they're willing to do MSRP OTD (MSRP is $73,820, with a selling price of $66,356.80 the OTD is $73,820).

I'm almost certainly going to take it if it looks fine in person since it's a bit over another 5% off the previously agreed sales price ($70,129).

[ebirotedu]

Congratulations! Seems like a fair deal to me.

Originally Posted by Argo

Update

I was in Asia earlier this month and just got back to town. Touched base with the dealer and they're willing to do MSRP OTD (MSRP is $73,820, with a selling price of $66,356.80 the OTD is $73,820).

I'm almost certainly going to take it if it looks fine in person since it's a bit over another 5% off the previously agreed sales price ($70,129).

[Balr14]

I question how much a Carfax damage report would affect resale value in 5 years or more, unless it has very low mileage. It's not a popular car.

[MisanoblueZ4]

If the car look great, do it. Chances are at some point there will be another bump or ding the car takes in its lifetime. Life’s short, your saving a nice chunk of $$$.

[Wynnsiensheng]

If you are happy, then do it and feel good about it. Only you know your own mind

[Argo]

Originally Posted by Balr14

I question how much a Carfax damage report would affect resale value in 5 years or more, unless it has very low mileage. It's not a popular car.

Allegedly this won't show up on the Carfax, but I'd probably still disclose it to future buyers. In any case, I doubt the difference would exceed the ~$4,200 I'll save after taxes.

Originally Posted by MisanoblueZ4

If the car look great, do it. Chances are at some point there will be another bump or ding the car takes in its lifetime. Life’s short, your saving a nice chunk of $$$.

Yeah agreed. It definitely also somewhat lowers the pressure of parking and driving it a whole bunch.

Originally Posted by Wynnsiensheng

If you are happy, then do it and feel good about it. Only you know your own mind

Yeah, given the chunk of change I'm saving, I can live with it.