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      12-16-2016, 06:56 PM   #1
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Question If a dealership crashes my car, can I request "Black Box" data?

Let's say I take my car in for service, and on a test drive, a rather substantial accident takes place. They tell me about it, say they can fix it for me, etc.

Should I be able to request human-readable FASTA data in order to see what conditions were present before/upon impact?

This could theoretically tell me whether the wreck was the result of a freewheeling test drive with TC off, an RPM spike, no increase in front wheel speed, etc.

It'd be the next best thing to a dashcam recording.

Any opinions, or better yet, relevant personal experience?

[relevant thread]
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      12-16-2016, 09:30 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packetpilot View Post
Let's say I take my car in for service, and on a test drive, a rather substantial accident takes place. They tell me about it, say they can fix it for me, etc.

Should I be able to request human-readable FASTA data in order to see what conditions were present before/upon impact?

This could theoretically tell me whether the wreck was the result of a freewheeling test drive with TC off, an RPM spike, no increase in front wheel speed, etc.

It'd be the next best thing to a dashcam recording.

Any opinions, or better yet, relevant personal experience?

[relevant thread]
It's your car and your property...what's to stop you. Do you even need to request? Say you get the data and it shows they were speeding and they wrecked...now what? They are still fixing it.. I would go for diminished value and lost time for some free shit or discounts?
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      12-18-2016, 09:16 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kbueno
Quote:
Originally Posted by packetpilot View Post
Let's say I take my car in for service, and on a test drive, a rather substantial accident takes place. They tell me about it, say they can fix it for me, etc.

Should I be able to request human-readable FASTA data in order to see what conditions were present before/upon impact?

This could theoretically tell me whether the wreck was the result of a freewheeling test drive with TC off, an RPM spike, no increase in front wheel speed, etc.

It'd be the next best thing to a dashcam recording.

Any opinions, or better yet, relevant personal experience?

[relevant thread]
It's your car and your property...what's to stop you. Do you even need to request? Say you get the data and it shows they were speeding and they wrecked...now what? They are still fixing it.. I would go for diminished value and lost time for some free shit or discounts?
Sue Them maybe?
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      12-18-2016, 09:21 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by packetpilot View Post
Let's say I take my car in for service, and on a test drive, a rather substantial accident takes place. They tell me about it, say they can fix it for me, etc.

Should I be able to request human-readable FASTA data in order to see what conditions were present before/upon impact?

This could theoretically tell me whether the wreck was the result of a freewheeling test drive with TC off, an RPM spike, no increase in front wheel speed, etc.

It'd be the next best thing to a dashcam recording.

Any opinions, or better yet, relevant personal experience?

[relevant thread]
Ultimately I'm not sure it matters

Car was in their possession and they crashed it

Its their fault and their responsibility to make restitution

NOW.....with that said....what will the impact of having a significant repair on the permanent record of the car?

Loss in value?

I know a corvette owner that was in a similar situation and they stated that the dealership just ruined the resale value of the car and told the dealership they own it now as a result of their negligence and they were paid out on pre-accident value of the vehicle

If you're going to involve the courts then that data could/would help to bolster your case, particularly if speed limit was exceeded, data showed reckless driving/etc (Gross Negligence)
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      12-20-2016, 08:27 AM   #5
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Maybe by subpoena, but you'd have to have the courts involved, possibly bringing charges against them, at the very least suing them. You have the data, but they'd have to extract it and you'd have to have the software to use it. You could also research what the insurance company would do, whether they'd consider it a total loss, etc. If you were really skillful in how you went about this entire process, recording every name of every person you talk to, writing statements to summarize all of your conversations, sending return-receipt requests to the dealer/bmw that have "reply by" dates, you might be able to get some action. Those things start to "wake up" the other sides lawyers and sometimes they get the idea that it may be best just to suck up the cost rather than go to court, because you are gathering evidence.
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      12-20-2016, 08:38 AM   #6
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how bad is the damage? how many miles?

like the rest have said, it will hurt the resale value with accident on record.

ask for new car
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      12-20-2016, 08:43 AM   #7
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Almost every current car, if not all of them, have various data recording devices. I've seen data stored most frequently in the seatbelt module IIRC, but I'm not an expert. . . I just retain them.

You could retain an expert, usually an accident reconstruction expert, to download what data is available and analyze it for you.

Its your car. It's your data. Have at it.
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      12-20-2016, 09:04 AM   #8
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I have confirmed that BMW EDR data is accessible by independent experts, etc.:

BMW 4 Series:
430i Coupe, Sedan & Convertible
440i Coupe, Sedan & Convertible
M4 Coupe, GTS & Convertible ACM
Data
F00K108387 & F00K108796 Driver side, behind instrument panel between steering column and center console

BMW & Rolls-Royce EDR Data Overview
This section provides general information about the EDR capability of this ACM and the type of EDR data that may be recorded. Always refer to the Data Limitations section of the CDR report for further information about the ACM and limitations of the data retrieved. The information included in the CDR report's Data Limitations section for this ACM is considered to be more precise and current than the generalized information included below. The actual data retrieved from the ACM may differ from what is described below. Review all vehicle coverage notes which are referenced in the Supported Vehicle list for this ACM before attempting to retrieve data from it.

The list below includes data elements which may be supported by the EDR in the vehicle:
• SYSTEM STATUS AT RETRIEVAL
o Ignition Cycle, Download (cycle)
• SYSTEM STATUS AT EVENT
o Initial Event Type
o Ignition ON Timer, at Event (msec)
o Time From Time Zero to Frontal Threshold (Beginning of Impact) (msec)
o Time From Time Zero to Side Threshold (Beginning of Impact) (msec)
o Time From Time Zero to Algorithm Wake-Up Start (Front) (msec)
o Time From Time Zero to Algorithm Wake-Up Start (Side) (msec)
o Time From Time Zero to Algorithm Wake-Up Start (Rear) (msec)
o Time From Time Zero to Deployment (Rollover) (msec)
o Time From Time Zero to Deployment (Pitchover) (msec)
o Time From Time Zero to Algorithm Wake-Up Start (Pedestrian Protection) (msec)
o Event Counter (counts)
o Complete File Recorded (Yes, No)
o Multi-Event, Number of Events
o Time From Previous Event to Current Event (msec)
o Maximum Delta-V, Longitudinal (MPH)
o Maximum Delta-V, Lateral (MPH)
o Time, Maximum Delta-V, Longitudinal (msec)
o Time, Maximum Delta-V, Lateral (msec)
o Time, Maximum Delta-V, Resultant (msec)
• DEPLOYMENT COMMAND DATA
o Frontal Air Bag, Time to First Stage Deployment, Driver (msec)
o Frontal Air Bag, Time to Second Stage Deployment, Driver (msec)
o Frontal Air Bag, Time to Third Stage Deployment (Vent), Driver (msec)
o Frontal Air Bag, Second Stage Disposal, Driver
o Frontal Air Bag, Third Stage Disposal (Vent), Driver
o Frontal Air Bag, Time to First Stage Deployment, Front Passenger (msec)
o Frontal Air Bag, Time to Second Stage Deployment, Front Passenger (msec)
o Frontal Air Bag, Time to Third Stage Deployment (Vent), Front Passenger (msec)
o Frontal Air Bag, Second Stage Disposal, Front Passenger
o Frontal Air Bag, Third Stage Disposal (Vent), Front Passenger
o Side Air Bag, Time to Deployment First Stage, Driver (msec)
o Side Curtain/Tube Air Bag,Time to Deployment, Driver Side (msec)
o Pretensioner, Time to Deploy, Driver (msec)
o Knee Bag, Time to Deploy, Driver (msec)
o Side Air Bag, Time to Deployment First Stage, Front Passenger (msec)
o Side Curtain/Tube Air Bag, Time to Deployment, Passenger Side (msec)
o Pretensioner, Time to Deploy, Front Passenger (msec)
o Knee Bag, Time to Deploy, Front Passenger (msec)
• CRASH PULSE DATA
o Delta-V, Longitudinal
o Delta-V, Lateral
o Lateral Acceleration (Lateral G High Range) (g)
o Longitudinal Acceleration (g)
• PRE-CRASH DATA -1 Sec
o Ignition Cycle, Crash (cycle)
o Safety Belt Status, Driver
o Safety Belt Status, Front Passenger
o Air Bag Warning Lamp (On,Off)
o Air Bag Suppression Switch Status, Front Passenger
o Seat Track Position Switch Status, Driver
o Seat Track Position Switch Status, Foremost, Front Passenger
o Occupant Size Classification, Front Passenger (Child)
• PRE-CRASH DATA -5 to 0 Sec
o Speed, Vehicle Indicated (MPH)
o Accelerator Pedal, % Full (%)
o Engine RPM
o Steering Input (deg)
o Service Brake, On/Off
o ABS Activity (Engaged, Non-engaged)
o Stability Control (On Engaged, Non-engaged)
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      12-20-2016, 12:22 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
Ultimately I'm not sure it matters

Car was in their possession and they crashed it

Its their fault and their responsibility to make restitution

NOW.....with that said....what will the impact of having a significant repair on the permanent record of the car?

Loss in value?

I know a corvette owner that was in a similar situation and they stated that the dealership just ruined the resale value of the car and told the dealership they own it now as a result of their negligence and they were paid out on pre-accident value of the vehicle

If you're going to involve the courts then that data could/would help to bolster your case, particularly if speed limit was exceeded, data showed reckless driving/etc (Gross Negligence)
X2. Figuring out what they were doing seems pointless, you left the car with them and it is now damaged.

Someone ran into my previous car while at the dealer (random person driving behind the dealership, where they shouldn't have been), wasn't dealers fault but they were responsible for it while at their place. They had the car fixed, didn't involve insurance and it wasn't reported to anyone so Carfax was clean and car was ultimately better than I left it as they fixed both the rear fender and repainted the bumper which has some light scratches on it. I thought they did what was needed to rectify the situation.
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      12-20-2016, 12:41 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
X2. Figuring out what they were doing seems pointless, you left the car with them and it is now damaged.

Someone ran into my previous car while at the dealer (random person driving behind the dealership, where they shouldn't have been), wasn't dealers fault but they were responsible for it while at their place. They had the car fixed, didn't involve insurance and it wasn't reported to anyone so Carfax was clean and car was ultimately better than I left it as they fixed both the rear fender and repainted the bumper which has some light scratches on it. I thought they did what was needed to rectify the situation.
If there was an airbag deployment then if it were my car I would be lawyering up and pushing them to replace the vehicle

Car will never be the same and resale value is done....

Toss the dealer the keys and tell them to call you when they have your new car....and in the meantime enjoy the loaner
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      12-20-2016, 12:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
If there was an airbag deployment then if it were my car I would be lawyering up and pushing them to replace the vehicle

Car will never be the same and resale value is done....

Toss the dealer the keys and tell them to call you when they have your new car....and in the meantime enjoy the loaner
I would look at the car and wouldn't need black box data to figure this out.
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      12-20-2016, 12:48 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I would look at the car and wouldn't need black box data to figure this out.
agreed

but if the dealer resists then having the black box data would bolster a lawyers argument if there was negligence on the part of the dealerships representative operating the vehicle at the time of the accident

If the guy was doing 90mph and......

Its supporting evidence/leverage for your lawyer and ultimately may assist in reducing the number of billable hours you're responsible for
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      12-20-2016, 01:23 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3ZING View Post
Sue Them maybe?
This thought process is what is wrong with the US.
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      12-20-2016, 01:26 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
This thought process is what is wrong with the US.
How is utilizing the courts to sue someone who has damaged your private property and refuses to make restitution a bad thing?

This isnt like someone spilling coffee in their lap and trying to blame someone else for their clumsiness
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      12-20-2016, 01:35 PM   #15
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How bad was the damage on the vehicle, also what is the repair cost? That will drive the resale value of this car.

Accident circumstances are irrelevant, other than the fact that the vehicle was in their possession and that they are liable for it at the time.

Good luck
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      12-20-2016, 02:19 PM   #16
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Pretty well publicized BMW M5 case (worst case scenario):
http://jalopnik.com/5628903/bmw-deal...ner-out-of-27k

And if you're really curious, 191 pages on the M5 board:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e60...16-months.html
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      12-20-2016, 02:54 PM   #17
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Point of Order here: How does local or California law address the issues of liability in this situation. Someone may want to assess the law before making pronouncements about who is liable for what.

And there is also the issue of what if any rights the OP signed away when/if he signed a repair order.
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      12-20-2016, 02:58 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
How is utilizing the courts to sue someone who has damaged your private property and refuses to make restitution a bad thing?

This isnt like someone spilling coffee in their lap and trying to blame someone else for their clumsiness
B/c that is the very first thought that pops into people's heads. Sue. Sue. Sue. And the misguided idea that there isn't a cost in time an money for the person suing or that there will be a positive outcome in the suer's favor.

That's why the individual and the dealership have insurance. You may not like the outcome but that's how it works. In fact suing has totally screwed up the insurance industry. I'm still waiting 3 years for a deductible b/c the other insurance company can drag their feet. How is this related to suing. I cannot explain the details and not sure if limited to PA but has totally screwed up the process and I'm only referring to collision not the other BS like tort and medical. For example, the other party doesn't "have to" provide a statement.

Last edited by omasou; 12-20-2016 at 03:11 PM..
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      12-20-2016, 03:04 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
B/c that is the very first thought that pops into people's heads. Sue. Sue. Sue. and also think that it's free and that there will be a positive outcome in the suer's favor.
Most people I know dread it because it costs a lot of money to go that route

Unfortunately its one of those boy scout moments where you need to be prepared for all possibilities and gathering information up front is much easier than after the fact

A dealership that you try to work with in good faith that knows that you're serious about doing so but not afraid to play hard ball will more often do the right thing because its a lot easier on them in the long run.

Its a lot less costly to KEEP a customer than it is to lose them and have them tell the entire world about how they wrecked a car.

Bad things happen.....life is all about how you handle things when it goes bad
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      12-20-2016, 03:12 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpnh View Post
Most people I know dread it because it costs a lot of money to go that route

Unfortunately its one of those boy scout moments where you need to be prepared for all possibilities and gathering information up front is much easier than after the fact

A dealership that you try to work with in good faith that knows that you're serious about doing so but not afraid to play hard ball will more often do the right thing because its a lot easier on them in the long run.

Its a lot less costly to KEEP a customer than it is to lose them and have them tell the entire world about how they wrecked a car.

Bad things happen.....life is all about how you handle things when it goes bad
Don't disagree with anything you posted here!
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      12-20-2016, 04:17 PM   #21
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It is your car, of course you can get this data but you will pay OUT THE ASS for an expert to retrieve it in accordance with the kind of custody the court wants to see in order to ensure the data is valid.

In short forget about it and just have the dealer pay you, they crashed your car there's really not much they can do about it.
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      12-21-2016, 12:49 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by omasou View Post
B/c that is the very first thought that pops into people's heads. Sue. Sue. Sue.
Well, if the first thing that popped into the dealer's head was "we'll make this right", we wouldn't be here.
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