[ragingclue]

Originally Posted by anysubat

I will suggest to go with the performance not with the price.

How many times would you suggest that?

[hellrotm]

Originally Posted by Paramedic

Well, this thread was kind of hijacked, but let's bring it back on track guys.

I want a new car for next summer, and I was set on the 335i... But I have a test drive scheduled for Monday in the S4... I'll post my review !

I also am ready to get a new car. I had my eye on a new 335xi sedan with M-tech kit for the longest time. I have my car spec'ed out at $50,825.

I just spec'ed a new S4 with similar options, it came out to $50,900.

Audi has definitely caught my attention. Seeing that article earlier in the thread, where the S4 had a faster lap time. I was surprised a bit.

[gonzo]

Originally Posted by anysubat

I think you have understood my point of view.

Who are you talking/writing to?

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by NewSong

Why would they regret their purchase "immediately"?

because he'll race them in his heavily modified 3 and claim victory...even though the Audi is stock.

of course once the playing field is leveled and the Audi is similarly modded, he may will come to realize what an irrelevant comment this was.

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by Joeb427

I think it will sell pretty well at first.
To this point Audi has tried and can't seem to make a car that really sells well.
Time will see if the S4 catches on and is a hit..

agreed...in New Jersey and the most of the US.

However in all other relevant markets on earth, Audi outsells BMW and Mercedes. (Europe, Asia etc.)

[NewSong]

Originally Posted by sakimano

because he'll race them in his heavily modified 3 and claim victory...even though the Audi is stock.

of course once the playing field is leveled and the Audi is similarly modded, he may will come to realize what an irrelevant comment this was.

[sakimano]

'the test'???

about a dozen international journals have tested. The S4 wins almost every single one, on paper. Some the 335i wins subjective feel wise, but the 0-60mph, 1/4mile, braking...always sees the S4 beat the 335i or 335xi quite handily

someone posted a link to motor und sport, a German magazine. Google translate it and you'll see what I'm referring to...the S4 waxed the 335i coupe with sport susp.

The only reviews I've seen where the 3 was favoured were the Top Gear review which focused on the interior being tacky (only journal in the world to think Audis don't have the best interiors fyi) and Car....which was more liberal and called it a toss up. Those were subjectively favoured...however statistically, the 335 won nothing.

Originally Posted by cstavaru

That test where the S4 wins is a joke.

The BMW was tested in xi form, where it does not have the upgraded M-Sport suspension but the standard raised xi suspension (softer than even the standard 335i suspension). Also the 335xi is slower than the 335i on a track. Would they have chosen the 335i M-Sport manual (or DCT but stupidly this is not available on the sedan), the results would be different (I think they chose the automatic gearbox, which is stupid to compare with Audi DSG). Also, if they chose a 335i M-Sport with BMW Performance Power Kit (which is an OEM part and brings the power on par with the Audi) the BMW would win hands down.

A proper comparison would be Audi S4 vs. BMW 335i M-Sport manual transmission with BMW Performance Power Kit (whose price would not be higher than the price of the BMW tested, because the xi suspension and the automatic gearbox would replace the cost of the M-Sport and the Power Kit).

Also, the Audi had an LSD whereas BMW had the open diff. If BMW would also offer a LSD as a BMW Performance option, the S4 would be destroyed. But this does not count, since BMW is not offering the damn diff (are you f*cking listening, BMW ?).

But the review was probably mean from the beginning to have the Audi as winner. You can't compare an Audi S with a standard BMW except when you want Audi to win.

So I have no doubts whatsoever that the 335i chassis is way better than the Audi chassis. With the addition of the BMW Performance Power Kit, the engine power difference is also eliminated.

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by GreenPlease

Where'd you find the number for the S4's stock boost?

it's irrelevant anyway?

you're comparing an inline 6 twin turbo BMW vs. a Supercharged V6 Audi

boost schmoost....totally different engines/systems.

fyi V6T = supercharged...strange, but Audi has decided that all forced induction engines will carry the T moniker in the nomenclature.

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by Hawkeye

What beats the Z4MC or the M5?

I hope you don't think the Jag XKR beats the M5 as it performs not as well per Top Gear and base price costs 10K more per the websites of jaguar and BMW.

I don't believe a P car beats the MC either cause they are different cars, even on Top Gear they couldn't agree and different people liked different cars better.

TT-RS will soundly thrash a Z4M (or whatever the 10 minute long name now is) + vs M5...RS6.

[stickypaws]

Originally Posted by sakimano

agreed...in New Jersey and the most of the US.

However in all other relevant markets on earth, Audi outsells BMW and Mercedes. (Europe, Asia etc.)

Sorry, but this is incorrect. In global sales, Audi is catching up (Audi even proclaimed that they might catch up in 2010), however they do not (yet) outsell BMW and MB.

ps, Top Gear isn't the only one who doesn't like the interior; TTAC feels the same.

I like Audis but let's not sugar coat everything.

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by domobrown

I think the only grossly biased comments on here are coming from you. Obviously, owning a car as good as a 335i has gone to your head. It must be hard to accept that Audi is now a worthy competitor. We all know the B8 A4 3.2 was never up to par with the 335i, so why are you complaining that the 335i lost to a more worthy opponent? Shouldn't this be partly expected/grasped when Audi announced the S4? You take this loss seriously and try to explain it when you don't need to. The 335i is still a damn good car. I think this loss shouldn't go to anyone's head. The E90 is aging (very well), but there is no denying that the new tech in the S4 makes it superior in some areas. I have hope for BMW's next gen 3 will be good as or better than the S4, but for now, don't take this loss so seriously. The 335i will still be awesome even if it's not the newest fastest thing available.

well said...we have a 2009 (new model) A4 2.0T, and while it's shockingly fast considering the little 4 banger in there, the road feel is far from sporty. It's also a bit long at 185.something inches. My B7 S4 (V8 previous model) is only 181 inches long, and the E90 sedan is about the same. Much better size for a fun car.

The new 335i will probably be as good as or better than the B8 S4...it's the old cat and mouse game.

BMW launched the E36...Audi trumped it performance wise (handily) with the B5 S4.

BMW trumped that with the E46 M3, and Audi produced the B5 RS4 in Europe, and later the B7 RS4 to really thump BMW and Mercedes.

BMW trumped that (performance wise) with the E92 and Mercedes went nuts and put the 6.2 V8 in the C class.

Down the range, BMW produced the 335...Lexus produced the IS350...and Audi had to answer, so out with the 3.2 and in with the S4 to fight that battle, while the new RS5 will duke it out with the E92 and C63.

Always the same game. We win as consumers though...the bar gets continually higher!

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by EmPower

I completely disagree with you Footie (on this one rare occaision )... The B6/B7 A4 were up against the E46 M3. Then came the RS4, which was the mac daddy of the pack. Remember that the S4, AMG C Class and the M3 were the halo C-segment luxury cars. The RS4 crashed the party and was tossed by the proverbial supermodel. For this reason, AMG, F('If you cant beat em join em' Lexus) and M went for more power and V8s to try to trounce the RS4.

Audi now has two Halo cars, the S4 and the RS4 in the C segment. They decided to leave the S4 the way it is, but in the mean time its BMW that stole the S4's thunder. With the introduction of the 335, it proved to be a worthy competitor to the B7 S4 but offering more low end torque, lighter wieght, much better weight distribution and a lower base price. This is when the autocrats of Ingolstadt got together in a glass boardroom in their pressed haute couture business suits, and scurried to make the next gen S4 seem a better value for money than the 335.

To counter your second point, what you seem to forget though is that the 335 has been around for 3 years, and it is just now that audi is introducing a car worthy of competing one on one with the magnanimous 3. So in conclusion, it does not surprise me that the S4 is a slightly better car, but what astonishes me is that Audi took so long to realise that they have the capability and brand equity to challenge Stuttgart and Munich to a one on one numbers game

interesting viewpoint, but there are a few inaccuracies

1. the A4 was never against the E46 M3...maybe you meant the B6/7 S4 (4.2 V8)
2. the RS4 has been out of production for about 15 months...last ones rolled in MY2008...Audi is already delivering MY2010 cars (like the new S4) from the rest of the brand lineup
3. there will be no new B8 RS4...just an RS5 coupe, likely with a more breathable version of the RS4/R8 4.2 FSI engine...tuned to 450+hp.

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by stickypaws

Sorry, but this is incorrect. In global sales, Audi is catching up (Audi even proclaimed that they might catch up in 2010), however they do not (yet) outsell BMW and MB.

ps, Top Gear isn't the only one who doesn't like the interior; TTAC feels the same.

I like Audis but let's not sugar coat everything.

yes, but if you'll remember, I didn't say that Audi outsells BMW and Mercedes on total global sales...

I said that outside of North America, it's Audi's ballgame (Audi sells more cars in Germany than they do in the entire USA). If you take out MB trucks, and focus on cars, Audi beats both competitors, in Germany even. China too...Audi and Buick have a stranglehold over there. Strange, but very true. Sure doesn't happen here...Audis are rare as hell! Even in Canada with our climate, we buy more Audis per capita than Americans, and there's still 2 E9X cars for every B7/B8 Audi I see running around.

You're finally really starting to see Audis show up...the new A4 sales have been amazing, and the LED lights are an easy way to spot them from 1/2 a mile away.

p.s. re sugar coating, it's just the truth...if you polled the top 20 or 30 print and online automotive journals, you'd find an overwhelming majority hail Audi as the best interior maker. I personally like the interiors in my Audis, and previous Audis, but to be honest, I don't think it's as big a deal...especially the way the BMW interiors get panned by so many people. I think they're just fine.

[Draman]

I drove the new S4 today...quite the car. The interior is nice (similar to that in my S5 so nothing new for me). I've been reading some people knocking on Audi interiors on this board lately but I think they are just a vocal minority; my opinion is that the Audi interior is at least a generation better than the interior on the E9x. The car I drove had beautiful 2 tone seats that I'd say are not only a step above the sport seats in a 3 but also better than the seats you'd find in an M3.

The car looks good but aside from the V6T badges on the fenders and the exhaust you really can't tell it apart from a run of the mill A4. As Audi is positioning the S4 to compete with the 335 this probably makes sense since basically the only aesthetic difference between the 335 and the 328 is the exhaust as well. For those looking for a "sleeper" the car is a winner, but the same could probably be said for a 335.

The V6T is a better engine than the V8 in my S5; it has way better economy and it's faster and more responsive to boot. The only downgrade is in sound as the V8 has a much meaner and more aggressive sounding exhaust and roar.

Performance wise it's about where I expected it. I'd say the vast majority of the difference between lap times or 0-60 times or whatever that you're reading in magazines I would bet can be attributed almost entirely to the tires. The tires on the S4 (pretty certain they were Pirelli PZero) are infinitely better than the Bridgestones that come on a sport package E9x. If given equal tires I'd venture to guess that the two cars would be nearly identical with maybe a slight edge to the 335 with an experienced driver because...

...The car is still not as balanced as an E9x. I don't want to say the car plows it's way into corners like the last gen S4, but you can definitely feel that the weight is primarily over the front wheels and the AWD is not tuned for absolute performance. It is without a doubt the best handling Audi I have ever driven, but I've never driven any RS car (RS4, TT-RS, etc) or an R8. I would say, again given equal tires, that the S4 is within 90% of the E9x in handling; they are very, very comparable cars.

Overall I say job well done to Audi. I would take a serious look at an S4 over an E9x xi and I would probably choose the S4. Comparing a RWD E9x to the S4, however, I would still pick the E9x. Part of that is probably my bias towards RWD so take my words with a grain of salt: test drive the S4 and an E9x and see which you prefer. Performance wise I'd say the two cars are essentially identical. The Audi has a better interior, the BMW is a slightly better balanced car. Comes down to what you prefer I think, either way I think anyone would be happy with either.

Side note: To anyone that thinks the S4 will be better because of a lack of HPFP problems, you should probably spend some time over at Audizine or another Audi forum. HPFP problems are a recurring theme and have been for Audis for a long time. The main difference seems to be that there are several aftermarket tuning companies that have released upgraded HPFP's and most modded people are running those instead. Why there are no aftermarket HPFP's for our cars I have no idea.

[footie]

Draman,

Did the S4 you drive have sportsdiff, if not then it does make a world of difference to how the S4 enters and goes through any corner. If it did have sportsdiff then I'm at a lose how you found the 335xi to have better balance.

Also regarding the rubber choice, the sportauto tests conducted where with similar type rubber and depending on the production period the choice of rubber varies on Audis, my S5 with 19" came with Dunlops, while the car I test drove before I placed my order was equipped with Pirelli and I'm sure you can even get Michelins on them too.

I'm sure that the 335 would perform better on non-run flats but as this is the way BMW deliver them then that's the way they need to be tested. The sooner BMW drop this shit technology the better.

[Draman]

Originally Posted by footie

Draman,

Did the S4 you drive have sportsdiff, if not then it does make a world of difference to how the S4 enters and goes through any corner. If it did have sportsdiff then I'm at a lose how you found the 335xi to have better balance.

Also regarding the rubber choice, the sportauto tests conducted where with similar type rubber and depending on the production period the choice of rubber varies on Audis, my S5 with 19" came with Dunlops, while the car I test drove before I placed my order was equipped with Pirelli and I'm sure you can even get Michelins on them too.

I'm sure that the 335 would perform better on non-run flats but as this is the way BMW deliver them then that's the way they need to be tested. The sooner BMW drop this shit technology the better.

I was comparing a 335i to the S4, there's no doubt in my mind that the S4 is a more capable car than the 335xi. The car I drove did have the Sports Differential. I could not agree with you more about the RFT's, they need to go (I ditched mine for Goodyear F1 Asymmetrics in less than 1000 miles). Like I said though, the two cars are basically neck and neck. Part of my preference for the 335i was undoubtedly based on the fact that I prefer the feel of RWD to AWD. The cars are so closely matched I could easily see someone driving the two and thinking the Audi is superior. Anyone in the market should really drive both and make their own choice; for me, the 335i is still the superior car. I don't think the 335xi stands up to the challenge particularly well so an apples to apples comparison will likely end up favoring the S4 everytime.

[gonzo]

^ I think Footie was asking if it had it and did you adjust the settings.

Alot of the typical Audi tug/shove is rendered out with a few clicks on the adjustment setting screen.


chime in if you like footie.

[footie]

Originally Posted by gonzo

^ I think Footie was asking if it had it and did you adjust the settings.

Alot of the typical Audi tug/shove is rendered out with a few clicks on the adjustment setting screen.


chime in if you like footie.

I'm not wanting come across as being all knowing but the sportsdiff does need to be set up correctly to get the most from it, if left in default mode it behaves much like your normal Audi but with maybe more resistance to understeer than before, though with no feeling the rear wheels are doing anything other than follow the lead from the front.

You really need to dial up 'dynamic' for the diff and steering if equipped and then really get aggressive with the thing if conditions are dry, then you not only notice the added bite at the front but you definitely feel the rear doing more. It's never going to offer the mad tailout playfulness that the 335 or M3 has but at the same time it doesn't scary like they can and it's more controllable, especially when wet.

[Draman]

Well I have Drive Select on my S5 and, while the new system isn't exactly the same, the settings are pretty much the same. I played with it in a few different settings and it's a wonderful system that I wish was available on more cars. Dialing up dynamic does make the car handle better but it can only do so much to mask the weight distribution. The car just feels front heavy no matter what you do; definitely not overly front heavy like previous Audis, but the feeling is still there even in a diminished form.

[domobrown]

Originally Posted by sakimano

yes, but if you'll remember, I didn't say that Audi outsells BMW and Mercedes on total global sales...

I said that outside of North America, it's Audi's ballgame (Audi sells more cars in Germany than they do in the entire USA). If you take out MB trucks, and focus on cars, Audi beats both competitors, in Germany even. China too...Audi and Buick have a stranglehold over there. Strange, but very true. Sure doesn't happen here...Audis are rare as hell! Even in Canada with our climate, we buy more Audis per capita than Americans, and there's still 2 E9X cars for every B7/B8 Audi I see running around.

You're finally really starting to see Audis show up...the new A4 sales have been amazing, and the LED lights are an easy way to spot them from 1/2 a mile away.

p.s. re sugar coating, it's just the truth...if you polled the top 20 or 30 print and online automotive journals, you'd find an overwhelming majority hail Audi as the best interior maker. I personally like the interiors in my Audis, and previous Audis, but to be honest, I don't think it's as big a deal...especially the way the BMW interiors get panned by so many people. I think they're just fine.

You came all the way from Audizine to triple post and convince people the S4 is more superior? Yes I've seen you on there, your biases are apparent. Although I too believe the S4 has proved itself, coming here to quote every opinion you don't relate to seems dumb.

[sakimano]

Originally Posted by domobrown

You came all the way from Audizine to triple post and convince people the S4 is more superior? Yes I've seen you on there, your biases are apparent. Although I too believe the S4 has proved itself, coming here to quote every opinion you don't relate to seems dumb.

umm...my garage says AUDI S4...Sherlock. Wasn't hiding anything.

Further, I was just clarifying fact from fiction where a couple of people who posted in this thread maybe weren't up to speed on some Audi facts.

Once in a while a BMW vs. Audi thread pops up on Audizine, and we always fuk up a bunch of the facts about the BMWs that we don't own. It's not usually long before a BMW owner sets us straight

[Goodfella69]

whats the torque on this s4??