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      07-18-2017, 01:02 PM   #133
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Originally Posted by fbsm View Post
I think you're referring to tax deductions....and those deductions are the same ones that every other company in the US has avail to them
As are EV subsidies. They are available to more than just the Teslas of the world. I disagree that the government is picking a winner and loser at least when it comes to the corporations... Its an equal opportunity EV incentive. You can get a subsidy right now on a many BMW-based EV products.

I personally have no issue with the government incentivizing new technology. That's how we see large scale change, and if nothing else the government is also responsible, in part, for the health and welfare of its people which includes pollutants. However I do think its important that they simply provide the incentives and then let business do the rest. The real change comes from the PEOPLE (yes typically working for corporations) that eventually develop the technology. As long as everyone has an equal opportunity at the incentive its all good to me. Provide the incentive to direct change and then let capitalism and entrepreneurship work its magic and implement the tech.
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      07-18-2017, 01:10 PM   #134
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Forget oil dependence.
Smog and pollution is a myth according to the Trump administration. EVs will be gone because we never have to worry about smog right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fbsm View Post
Every time governments try to pick winners/losers we end up with perverted markets, increased cost and everything turns to shit and requires additional taxpayer costs in the form of bailouts
How is the government picking favorites when they support the development of a technology that will reduce emissions and provide cleaner air for all citizens? Telsa is not the only company that sells cars that qualify for those tax credits/rebates. They just happened to be the only company that did it well...

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Originally Posted by fbsm View Post
People readily adopt good ideas on their own free of coercion
Which company is going to do what's "right" for the environment if there aren't any regulations that force them too? We'd all be driving around with cars on leaded gas with no catalytic converters if there wasn't some form of regulation that required yet.

Do you think abs, airbags, traction control would be in every car if it wasn't required? Companies would have offered that on their own free will right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dthltm View Post
But, people who can't see that we need to make a change now should be castrated.
What should happen to Trump? He is one of those people and he is leading a country to believe what he does.
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      07-18-2017, 01:14 PM   #135
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Originally Posted by fbsm View Post
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Sort of the beauty of the Model S. It's compares very favorably to the 7er, S and A8. It's certainly quicker than any near its price and even the much costlier versions.

None of those cars is particularly fun, or about that, so it competes favorably there too.

It's almost amazingly humorous that the anti EV set doesn't get that the six seconds of plugging your car in inside your garage is a wee bit more convenient than hanging out for five plus minutes at a gas station with the lotto ticket and cigarette buying riff raff.

For many of us lefties, our utilities are cleaner than what a low 20's mpg large German sedan would ever hope to achieve.

So the S ticks all of your boxes compared to the Germans. Sure parts of the interior are chintzy, but each of the Germans has a kludgy interface, requires trips to the dealer for service, updates and even some functionality changes that they won't trust the owner to do themselves.

Now to be fair, the Model 3 will have a tougher fight, as its competing against much sportier cars and won't have quite the price advantage of the Model S.

As for range, my wife hasn't driven more than 300 miles in a week in maybe five years. So that's one night's charge. Range is an absolute non issue for probably 95% of folks living in urban areas.
I get that you're fascinated with EV's

But you seem to miss all of the correllaries

You need to massively plan according to charging stations/range from home.....especially on non local trips

Finding someone to work on the vehicle is a royal pain in the arse.....to say the least....parts are even worse when needed.

It has half the range as my daily driver which I can push 600 miles from if I want.....doesnt matter whether its summer or winter

It costs a shitload more than my ICE/CI vehicle

The list goes on....

Like I said....people readily adopt good ideas.....EV's are a novelty rather than a good idea for the vast majority of folks.

If it floats your boat thats great....but dont expect the rest of us to subsidize you
You know you're arguing gibberish, right?

Who cares that you can drive 600 miles on a tank of gas? How often do you actually do that? My wife probably last drove 600 consecutive miles nearly ten years ago when we moved from CA to TX. She'd take a plane for that now, or ride in my ICE car.

I have a friend with an old MB 240D converted to run on biodiesel with a 40 gallon auxiliary tank, it has a 2,000 mile range. It's very existence probably shakes your world view, but has so little bearing on current car developments that just discussing it wasted both of our time. Just like you and your woopeedeef'ing doo 600 mile range.
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      07-18-2017, 01:17 PM   #136
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I'm actually a weirdo that likes manuals, so EVs don't actually interest me much, but bringing up traits that mean nothing to the people buying them is just as pointless as talking about the new Aston Martin not having a cassette player.
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      07-18-2017, 01:21 PM   #137
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Originally Posted by tdott View Post

What should happen to Trump? He is one of those people and he is leading a country to believe what he does.
Keep him alive in captivity, without a phone or camera, and let him get stung by bullet ants multiple times a day for 30 years.
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      07-18-2017, 01:37 PM   #138
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Worth noting that I'm passively shopping for CTS-V wagons and E90 M3's. So any trees I'm hugging are also probably wilting.

Although both have less range than a Model S, so duck and cover and all that.
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      07-18-2017, 01:42 PM   #139
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Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Worth noting that I'm passively shopping for CTS-V wagons and E90 M3's. So any trees I'm hugging are also probably wilting.

Although both have less range than a Model S, so duck and cover and all that.
I think that the used cars, given they are already manufactured and in existence, is a very different argument versus buying new or looking forward to future models. So enjoy your shopping!
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      07-18-2017, 01:55 PM   #140
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Originally Posted by Dthltm View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
Worth noting that I'm passively shopping for CTS-V wagons and E90 M3's. So any trees I'm hugging are also probably wilting.

Although both have less range than a Model S, so duck and cover and all that.
I think that the used cars, given they are already manufactured and in existence, is a very different argument versus buying new or looking forward to future models. So enjoy your shopping!
The convenience of wanting a manual and needing to carry a two year old. Options for new cars are getting scarce.
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      07-18-2017, 02:13 PM   #141
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Originally Posted by n55jb4 View Post
Musk is not an engineer and he probably knows less science than average college graduate. He is a businessman, he manages company and finances and he even partially involved himself (tho later he got away from that project and sold it to other scam company that is currently pushing it to collect scam money) in a Hyperllop scam (fantasy project that is impossible to create on Earth) in order to allocate some additional investment money that he needs very much right now.
It doesn't matter if Tesla cars won't be produced in 10 years. Not much will care. What bothers me more is that EV is inevitable in one form or the other in future. And that is bad for me because
1. EV kills fun
2. EV changes current hierarchy - it may be not cool to drive Porsche anymore in 10 years, just because your neighbor soccer-mom in her middle tier EV minivan will have faster 1/4 times or 0-60 and so on

This raises a question - was it all in vein? Growing up as a kid to finally own a Porsche, Mersedes, Ferrari (put your favorite brand and model) and here you are on the road where you are considered a slow Ford Fiesta like because average EV Civic will be faster - what will be our new goals then? Does EV essentially destroys a huge automotive based culture?
Autopilot cars are another PITA. Yes they will be very convinient and for many people finally long commute will mean just another free time to rest, read or work inside a self driven car while it's getting to a destination - like you are in a train cabin. However, again, no more fun on roads, no more drifting, donuts, no more moments to accelerate, pass others or get to destination faster if you are in a hurry or emergency. Just boring GPS like drive everyday....... game over. Yes, you can say tracks are for that - but the thing is I've been at the track for that once in 3 years.... so there you have it

This is why I hate EV cars (not specifically Tesla)


Another question is that US market is only a fraction of worlds auto market. I can bet to anyone that outside of western world (NA, EU and AU) there will never be EV infrastructure good enough to support EV cars in foreseeable future - like in next 50 years. Russia, China, India, Brazil (probably that's 90% of territories and population of the world lol) will NEVER EVER (at least for the next 50-100 years) abandon internal combustion engines

As for Tesla itself - with Model 3 for $27k - it's no longer will be percieved as a luxury car maker. Brand will dilute and be like current mid-tier automakers. Porsche for example is perceived as a more prestigious brand currently and the gap will only grow with Tesla introducing Model 3

Another thing to consider is that there will never be feasible (mass produced and profitable) EV airplanes or EV trucks that US infrastructure is built upon

Finally, about fusion - forget about it for next 500 years at least
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      07-18-2017, 02:27 PM   #142
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Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Oil has it's own subsidies-- not to mention decades of wars to ensure an ongoing supply. Sure would be great to be sending less money to the middle east
True, which is why trump is undoing Obama's legacy of anti energy and making us net exporters. Great weapon against Russia too.
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      07-18-2017, 02:41 PM   #143
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Originally Posted by fbsm View Post
Didnt you just refute your own argument FOR EV's and reinforce the argument we've all been putting forth as to WHY we're not interested in EV's for the forseeable future?

Just curious....were there subsidies for horseless carriages 100 years ago?

We're back to the notion that people readily adopt "Good Ideas'

When the next modality of transportation comes along that is:

Less Expensive
More convenient
Faster
More Efficient]
More Fun
etc etc et

THEN and ONLY then will the majority of folks give that widget any consideration
Henry Ford actually had to sue BS patent holders to get the Ford Motor Company off the ground. LOL.
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      07-18-2017, 02:56 PM   #144
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Tesla's market cap is higher than Ford and almost the same as GM. I don't think they are going anywhere. I ordered a Model 3, and test drove a P100D Model S yesterday. It was a nice car, the autopilot was cool and the launch is ridiculous. 0-60 in 2.3 seconds, felt like my R35 GT-R but completely silent and no drama.
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      07-18-2017, 03:09 PM   #145
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Huh? This is so far out in left field it's simply amazing that people will say anything to protect their beliefs.



Better performance, more range, better maintenance, and all that stuff, didn't come until long after horseless carriages started showing up. Horses weren't replaced by them until many many years later (30-40 years for mass produced ICE?) and longer I'm sure in more rural areas. You seem to have this perception that as soon as horseless carriages showed up they were all toyota corollas or something...I'm not sure how many times I can explain this to you. At the time of course, people saw the potential of the ICE engine vs. horses, that eventually the technology would offer better performance, better range, better reliability, etc., but that didn't come until much later.
The Model T was introduced in 1908 and by the time production ended over 15 million had been produced by 1927 and the price was cut by almost 2/3rds. The Model T is just one example. At the beginning of the 20th century the automobile industry rapidly grew at a time when adaptation of new technology was far slower pace than today because of economic factors. The point you are missing is the EV is trying to replace a machine of virtually the same design and capability, where as the automobile was a completely different technology than the horse. EVs are competing within the same technology product class with ICE. If electric propulsion was far superior, the market would have adopted it already and without any incentives.

Ironically, cars were first adopted in cities for two reasons 1) paved streets existed, 2) less er... "pollution" than the prevailing transportation vehicle of the day. Sound familiar? LOL

Last edited by Efthreeoh; 07-18-2017 at 03:16 PM..
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      07-18-2017, 03:10 PM   #146
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The USPS might not make money, but I love those people. I'd take Priority Mail any day over UPS or FedEx. Both are way more expensive alternatives, and UPS ground moves as slowly as covered wagons at times it seems. VIVA USPS!
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      07-18-2017, 03:24 PM   #147
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It's funny how we all talk about electrics cars.

How much road based haulage is electric? None. How much shipping is electric, carrying all the world's supplies? None. How much air cargo is electric? None. Some trains are electric but not many and I'm not sure if they are mainly for passengers.

We have a very long way to go.

What always gets me though is the idea that warming is bad. If the earth was cooling. Then I'd be worried! What worries me more is the ocean filling with microscopic plastic particles. Not the excuse to tax carbon and create panic over what if guess work. An ice age. Now that would be serious. Starvation and poor crop yields. I must check whatever happened with global dimming.

As for Tesla. Yes I could see them fizzling out and the big car makers carry over the electric and hybrid cars. Places like the UK can barely produce enough electric as it is. If the whole country went EV we'd have black outs. Renewable energy is still too unreliable at this point so it'll be fossil fuel driven electric vehicles right now as well.
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      07-18-2017, 03:26 PM   #148
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Tesla roadster: Base price $119,000
Model S: Base price: $69,500
Model 3: Base price: $35,000

The idea that it's not going to catch on because they're too expensive without incentives is not seeing the larger picture.
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      07-18-2017, 03:32 PM   #149
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I don't think Tesla will be GONE but they will definitely be less special. I think the hype is wearing off and now investors are beginning to view them as a car company rather than a tech company. As such we can expect their stock to plummet over the next few years.

Look at their metrics? One death on record from autonomous driving already. Horrible fit and finish QA/QC on their vehicles. Rarely if ever hitting delivery schedules. Lots of government grants propping them up. Lack of a developed plan to deal with waste batteries. Still somehow having issues getting technical support out to satellite dealers and shops.
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      07-18-2017, 04:01 PM   #150
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Tesla roadster: Base price $119,000
Model S: Base price: $69,500
Model 3: Base price: $35,000

The idea that it's not going to catch on because they're too expensive without incentives is not seeing the larger picture.
The price you quoted for the model S is with the $7,500 tax incentive. The Model 3 $35K price was supposed to be before the tax incentive, but I recently heard that the Model 3 price is now $42,500. I've not yet verfied that.
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      07-18-2017, 05:04 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by CosmosMpower View Post
Tesla's market cap is higher than Ford and almost the same as GM. I don't think they are going anywhere. I ordered a Model 3, and test drove a P100D Model S yesterday. It was a nice car, the autopilot was cool and the launch is ridiculous. 0-60 in 2.3 seconds, felt like my R35 GT-R but completely silent and no drama.
GM is earning 5.67 per share @ $36 per share
Ford is earning 0.94 per share @ $11per share
Tesla is loosing -4.77 per share @ $328 per share.

Hmmm
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      07-18-2017, 05:07 PM   #152
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Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
The USPS might not make money, but I love those people. I'd take Priority Mail any day over UPS or FedEx. Both are way more expensive alternatives, and UPS ground moves as slowly as covered wagons at times it seems. VIVA USPS!
I'll tell my wife. She tries.
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      07-18-2017, 05:09 PM   #153
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Tesla roadster: Base price $119,000
Model S: Base price: $69,500
Model 3: Base price: $35,000

The idea that it's not going to catch on because they're too expensive without incentives is not seeing the larger picture.
Camry, Accord, $20,000.
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      07-18-2017, 05:30 PM   #154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Obioban View Post
Tesla roadster: Base price $119,000
Model S: Base price: $69,500
Model 3: Base price: $35,000

The idea that it's not going to catch on because they're too expensive without incentives is not seeing the larger picture.
Camry, Accord, $20,000.
Why stop there? Use a Cruze or Sentra. I mean why even try to pick a comparable car?
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