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      10-15-2019, 07:58 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by unluky View Post
The older I get the more I notice the complete lack of sound financial decision by basically 75% of the population. Whats worse - they don't seem to care. It's like the thought of retiring or what happens when they are 70 years old is someone else's problem. I can't tell you how many "fatherly" talks I have had with employees over the years, some older than me, about finances. Now I am not financial genies by any means, but I am 50 and could retire today and be OK. I don't want to be just OK, so I am still working. Plus I like my job.

I worked for a manufacturing company prior with a nice sized skilled laborer pool that made pretty decent wages. We in the offices were compensated well too, but there were a few booming years where the bonuses were staggeringly good - as in we thought the owners would cap them but did not. Everyone in the office still had the cars they had 4-5 years ago and every car in the wage roll parking lot turned over to not only new cars....but NICE new cars. Being an exec and on the HR team - I was a part of helping with the 401K program - so I saw what these people had saved. All those great years they turned down the tax safe haven and company match opportunities and instead bought brand new cars, motorcycles, and other toys. It was hard for a conservative guy like me to watch, but everyone has to walk their own path.

I never say a word unless my advice is asked, but it is very satisfying when you open the eyes on a worker early in their career and see them start making saving habits that will change their whole lives - and maybe their kids lives too.

It is scary how fast the "get it now and worry about paying for it later" ideology has progressed. Weighing the up/down sides to debt are of little concern to a majority of Americans I believe. As long as they hear a YES - they are willing to sign on the dotted line. I'm sure we have all seen the surprised look at the dealers when the light bulb just went off understanding they have a different critter in front of them that pays attention.

Bravo to you. It takes a village and itís important to share our wisdom with the next generations.

I have two daughters in their 20s and my husband is a fiend about teaching them financial responsibility. So they are doing very well and I expect them to do that going forward.

However, most of their friends, and our relatives of similar ages, are idiots. They all have college degrees but canít crunch simple numbers.

One thing Iím hard over on, when talking to young people angsting to buy a house is - watch out for flood insurance. If you have a mortgage you must get it in quickly expanding locations. It can cost as much as the damn mortgage.

Always ask the realtor if the house requires flood insurance. Factor that into your costs.

The larger problem is that the flood insurance situation is dire. They simply donít pay out many claims since the Sandy storm. Totally corrupt.

After watching a documentary about a man who lost his home in New Jersey, could not get any flood insurance benefits, and STILL has to pay his mortgage AND flood insurance on an empty lot - we RAN to the phone and cancelled our flood insurance.

We live right on the water, and our neighborhood floods regularly but never high enuf to damage the homes (itís flatland and the water just spreads out). Since we donít have a mortgage we had the option.

Most people are stuck paying ever increasing premiums, that they are unlikely to ever be able to collect on - like flushing their money down a toilet.

So, if you have kids or other young people in your life, please help them understand this horrid situation before they buy a home. Houses are not investments. They can take you down quick if you buy more than you can handle.
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      10-15-2019, 10:16 AM   #112
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      10-15-2019, 10:24 AM   #113
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Run Silent View Post
That is freaking insane. Who the hell thinks financing a depreciating asset over that long makes any sense whatsoever.

Financial morons - the lot of them.



That can't be right. There is no way that the average family insurance premium is $1,667 a month. That is not possible. I've never known anyone to have family premiums over even half of that. Most places I've worked or my wife has worked typically had family premiums of around $400-$600 per month. Mine is currently $0, since my company pays for all insurance, though.

I've seen some programs where it was as high as $800 for a family - but twice that?

I'm calling bullshit.

I think this is the original article I saw it from: https://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceja.../#635d5cf3700a

"Premiums surpassed $20,000 on average for families with employer health insurance coverage, according to the annual Kaiser Family Foundation employee health benefits survey". So "employer health insurance coverage" is the distinction in regards to the average.
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      10-15-2019, 01:25 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by natahoa View Post

Bravo to you. It takes a village and itís important to share our wisdom with the next generations.

I have two daughters in their 20s and my husband is a fiend about teaching them financial responsibility. So they are doing very well and I expect them to do that going forward.

However, most of their friends, and our relatives of similar ages, are idiots. They all have college degrees but canít crunch simple numbers.

One thing Iím hard over on, when talking to young people angsting to buy a house is - watch out for flood insurance. If you have a mortgage you must get it in quickly expanding locations. It can cost as much as the damn mortgage.

Always ask the realtor if the house requires flood insurance. Factor that into your costs.

The larger problem is that the flood insurance situation is dire. They simply donít pay out many claims since the Sandy storm. Totally corrupt.

After watching a documentary about a man who lost his home in New Jersey, could not get any flood insurance benefits, and STILL has to pay his mortgage AND flood insurance on an empty lot - we RAN to the phone and cancelled our flood insurance.

We live right on the water, and our neighborhood floods regularly but never high enuf to damage the homes (itís flatland and the water just spreads out). Since we donít have a mortgage we had the option.

Most people are stuck paying ever increasing premiums, that they are unlikely to ever be able to collect on - like flushing their money down a toilet.

So, if you have kids or other young people in your life, please help them understand this horrid situation before they buy a home. Houses are not investments. They can take you down quick if you buy more than you can handle.
Education has no bearing on financial responsibility. My mother has no higher education....actually she doesn't have any education past elementary/junior high. Explaining her situation would require a whole separate post. Regardless, she managed to save quite a bit of money and put both myself and my brother through college. All of this working labor intensive jobs.

I dated a young lady a long time ago who has a degree in accounting and worked at a large corporation's HR department. She was doing work around the company's 401k plan and did the talks to the employees about enrolling in the plan. The ironic thing was she didn't believe any of the stuff she was told to message. She YOLO'd.
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      10-15-2019, 01:35 PM   #115
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NickyC View Post
I think this is the original article I saw it from: https://www.forbes.com/sites/bruceja.../#635d5cf3700a

"Premiums surpassed $20,000 on average for families with employer health insurance coverage, according to the annual Kaiser Family Foundation employee health benefits survey". So "employer health insurance coverage" is the distinction in regards to the average.
My old employer's plan was easily 25k per year inclusive of my contribution and their share for family coverage. I recall that because back when Obamacare was being implemented there was talk of taxing or limiting the availability of so-called "cadillac" plans, it was in the ballpark of fitting that definition.
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      10-15-2019, 01:35 PM   #116
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Originally Posted by Flacht3 View Post
For the record, this is one thing I I don't disagree on

Also getting back on track to this thread, in general I agree that people (overall) make terrible financial decisions. The average car loan length of 69 months is telling of that. And when those same people complain about lack of home affordability etc. I don't feel any pity.

But there is also a subset of the population that is simply priced out, drowning in student loans, and living in areas of the country where they could save every penny and still be out-of-luck until they consider moving elsewhere.
Student loans are not as big an anchor as many make them out to be if you are smart about how much you take out and what you're paying it towards in terms of your education.

I graduated in 92 with $25k in student loan debt....which is a pretty high sum for that time period. I didn't have a career job when I graduated with the recession going at the time. What I did was to understand the loan terms I signed up for. Not sure if things have changed for subsidized student loans but there is a stipulation where principle payments and any interest is deferred while you're still enrolled at least half/part time in college. I used this rule to its fullest until I was able to get myself in a financial situation to pay on the student loans. The way the system works is you get a 6 months grace period after your last semester. If you enroll again for classes with at least a total of 6 credits, the clock resets and you're in your deferment period again. When you complete that semester, you again have 6 months to begin paying or re-enrolling in classes.

I did this for a few years taking a bunch of different IT/programming classes at my local community college where the cost per credit hour was very cheap. I'd be very surprised if this rule was removed from subsidized student loans.

I bought myself enough time where I was able to get my career established, save up some money, get my debt load down, be in the position to pay on my student loans, and buy my first place. Granted I had help from my parents as I was able to live at home. But I lost out on the tax write off for paying on my student loans as I made too much.
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      10-15-2019, 01:39 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
My old employer's plan was easily 25k per year inclusive of my contribution and their share for family coverage. I recall that because back when Obamacare was being implemented there was talk of taxing or limiting the availability of so-called "cadillac" plans, it was in the ballpark of fitting that definition.
I wonder how my employer is handling their employee insurance coverage. I only pay $145 a month for full family coverage (same amount for as many dependents as you have in your family). This amount also includes dental and vision coverage. The yearly medical deductibles for each person covered is only $250. I would think this is definitely a "Cadillac" plan.
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      10-15-2019, 03:11 PM   #118
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
I wonder how my employer is handling their employee insurance coverage. I only pay $145 a month for full family coverage (same amount for as many dependents as you have in your family). This amount also includes dental and vision coverage. The yearly medical deductibles for each person covered is only $250. I would think this is definitely a "Cadillac" plan.
Usually you can check on your paystub if your employer notes their contributions YTD or on your W-2 in box 12. Itíll be denoted under a line item with DD.
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      10-15-2019, 05:47 PM   #119
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Education has no bearing on financial responsibility. My mother has no higher education....actually she doesn't have any education past elementary/junior high. Explaining her situation would require a whole separate post. Regardless, she managed to save quite a bit of money and put both myself and my brother through college. All of this working labor intensive jobs.

I dated a young lady a long time ago who has a degree in accounting and worked at a large corporation's HR department. She was doing work around the company's 401k plan and did the talks to the employees about enrolling in the plan. The ironic thing was she didn't believe any of the stuff she was told to message. She YOLO'd.

100%. My father was raised as 1 of 9 children and was poor enough he never had shoes till the snow fell. His father died when he was 5 - so they were the definition of POOR. But it was the 30's - so lots of poor people - they all made due. He quit high school his senior year to join the military and never finished or did college. But from those poor beginnings he understood money and taught us to be very conservative and to buy with money not credit for everyday things.

He certainly was not "rich" by today's standards, but retired when he was ready, had a pretty nice retirement and died a millionaire. That does not mean as much today as it did when he was young, but he left this world debt free and left a nice chuck of land to my sister and I that we enjoy a modest profit off each year. We are both doing just fine ourselves, but I think with him starting with nothing - the fact he left us something was one of his best accomplishments to him.

It seems each generation loses 50% of their fear of debt because they no longer knew anyone that was as poor as they were back then. When you went hunting to eat - not sport. Crazy how times have changed. You can have a iPhone X and still be considered poor by today's standards.
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      10-15-2019, 06:13 PM   #120
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unluky View Post
100%. My father was raised as 1 of 9 children and was poor enough he never had shoes till the snow fell. His father died when he was 5 - so they were the definition of POOR. But it was the 30's - so lots of poor people - they all made due. He quit high school his senior year to join the military and never finished or did college. But from those poor beginnings he understood money and taught us to be very conservative and to buy with money not credit for everyday things.

He certainly was not "rich" by today's standards, but retired when he was ready, had a pretty nice retirement and died a millionaire. That does not mean as much today as it did when he was young, but he left this world debt free and left a nice chuck of land to my sister and I that we enjoy a modest profit off each year. We are both doing just fine ourselves, but I think with him starting with nothing - the fact he left us something was one of his best accomplishments to him.

It seems each generation loses 50% of their fear of debt because they no longer knew anyone that was as poor as they were back then. When you went hunting to eat - not sport. Crazy how times have changed. You can have a iPhone X and still be considered poor by today's standards.
lol and kids make fun of each other even in 20s about having old iphones and
fakeairpods. so how you think they going to grow up . there parents probably the same; lavished out in designer clothing and jewelry.

im sitting here north of 6 figures trying to save 50 cents at sonic drive thru for a pricing discrepncy. kid told me today to stop being a poor ass and that he wasn't going to argue with me. closed window on me. manager same deal. LOL. i was in my beater pilot, thank god i just laugh at these situations now; and don't let my ego get hurt by general stupidness. if i even muttered "oh come on man im pretty wealthy" that conversation would have taken a wild turn
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      10-15-2019, 07:53 PM   #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
Education has no bearing on financial responsibility. My mother has no higher education....actually she doesn't have any education past elementary/junior high. Explaining her situation would require a whole separate post. Regardless, she managed to save quite a bit of money and put both myself and my brother through college. All of this working labor intensive jobs.

I dated a young lady a long time ago who has a degree in accounting and worked at a large corporation's HR department. She was doing work around the company's 401k plan and did the talks to the employees about enrolling in the plan. The ironic thing was she didn't believe any of the stuff she was told to message. She YOLO'd.
College canít fix stupid.
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      10-15-2019, 07:55 PM   #122
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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
I wonder how my employer is handling their employee insurance coverage. I only pay $145 a month for full family coverage (same amount for as many dependents as you have in your family). This amount also includes dental and vision coverage. The yearly medical deductibles for each person covered is only $250. I would think this is definitely a "Cadillac" plan.
You must work for the government. Or a contractor like Boeing. We had great insurance when my husband worked for Pepco in the 1980s and 90s. We got the same deal as the union workers. Iím sure it costs more now, but Iíll bet it is a lot less than most employer plans.
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      10-15-2019, 08:00 PM   #123
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Originally Posted by G35POPPEDMYCHERRY View Post
lol and kids make fun of each other even in 20s about having old iphones and
fakeairpods. so how you think they going to grow up . there parents probably the same; lavished out in designer clothing and jewelry.

im sitting here north of 6 figures trying to save 50 cents at sonic drive thru for a pricing discrepncy. kid told me today to stop being a poor ass and that he wasn't going to argue with me. closed window on me. manager same deal. LOL. i was in my beater pilot, thank god i just laugh at these situations now; and don't let my ego get hurt by general stupidness. if i even muttered "oh come on man im pretty wealthy" that conversation would have taken a wild turn
Yes, but that is the mindset that has made you successful. We are the same way. Retired now and plenty of kibble, because we pinched every penny till it screamed all our lives. My kids are the same way, pretty much, but they certainly had a lot more luxuries growing up than we did!

My X5 was my first car loan since 1979. I had a hard time getting aProved, partly because if that. I showed them my savings account and they were glad to lend me the money. Itís fun to not be so thrifty, but hard getting used to after a lifetime of holey underwear and bargain-basement everything.
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      10-15-2019, 08:23 PM   #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
My old employer's plan was easily 25k per year inclusive of my contribution and their share for family coverage.
My CURRENT medical/dental plan costs me $250.31 every two weeks for me and my DW. Since my employer pays the other 75%, that's a total of $26K per year for two people...and we don't even have eyewear coverage!

If someone were to be paying that entire tab out-of-pocket working a 40-hour week, the first $12.50 of their pay would all go to health insurance.....
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      10-15-2019, 10:43 PM   #125
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Originally Posted by natahoa View Post
You must work for the government. Or a contractor like Boeing. We had great insurance when my husband worked for Pepco in the 1980s and 90s. We got the same deal as the union workers. Iím sure it costs more now, but Iíll bet it is a lot less than most employer plans.
I actually don't. I have also worked for a couple of very large defense contractor companies. None of their benefits are this good. Well, one was. The company was a wholly owned subsidiary to a medium sized government contractor firm until a larger one came in and bought out the entire parent company with all the subsidiaries. The benefits were changed to be slightly worse but have over the years eroded away. Still decent but not as good as what I have now. Before the take over, health insurance was $1. That is not a typo. The execs wanted to provide health coverage for free but due to IRS rules had to charge the employees something. So $1 was the cost.

The current company I'm with...I just started with them a few months ago. The reason why the benefits are so good is because the company prides itself as a great place to work. The company is also on a few of those various lists of great places to work such as Glass Door and Fortune Magazine.
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      10-15-2019, 11:49 PM   #126
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I made the mistake of going for the 72 months instead of 60. My mind was telling me go for the lower monthly. But doing so bumped the APR almost double. In the end the interest is much more. But my thinking was that I'll just refinance it after a couple years. I probably made the wrong decision.
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      10-16-2019, 12:54 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by vreihen16 View Post
My CURRENT medical/dental plan costs me $250.31 every two weeks for me and my DW. Since my employer pays the other 75%, that's a total of $26K per year for two people...and we don't even have eyewear coverage!

If someone were to be paying that entire tab out-of-pocket working a 40-hour week, the first $12.50 of their pay would all go to health insurance.....
I checked and last year it was about 28k for family of 4 for just medical. Self insured company with a PPO administered by Cigna with good not great deductible but pretty reasonable copays. Moved to a high deductible ppo plan with HSA this year since it seems like thatís where a lot of Silicon Valley companies are headed, so may as well build up some savings in the HSA before they force you to move. Benefits are seriously one of the big reasons why either my spouse or I would likely have to keep working until regular retirement age. Iím voting for her to keep going
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      10-16-2019, 01:06 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by unluky View Post
100%. My father was raised as 1 of 9 children and was poor enough he never had shoes till the snow fell. His father died when he was 5 - so they were the definition of POOR. But it was the 30's - so lots of poor people - they all made due. He quit high school his senior year to join the military and never finished or did college. But from those poor beginnings he understood money and taught us to be very conservative and to buy with money not credit for everyday things.
Totally agree. Dad wasnít of quite such circumstances but came from modest means and tried to install the value of money at an early age. Canít say I followed it 100% (have to touch the iron for myself to know itís hot), but I screwed up at the right time - college. Graduated with a student loan, credit card debt and bad credit. Spent my 20s living on cash and crawling back out and learned a good lesson on the value of patience, savings and delayed gratification.

Thatís why I donít by the sob stories nowadays on student loans - most have basically a car loanís worth of debt. Itís easily paid off if you stick to a budget and arenít spending a ton of money going out to eat/drink, using the latest gadget, or otherwise spending beyond your means. Those who have 100k+ either went to medical/law/business school and will recoup it over the long haul or made a bad decision to borrow 6 figures for a major that wonít get you a job capable of paying it back easily.

The lesson I learned in my 30s was that when you wonder how some people you know afford the lifestyle they seem to have, itís that they really canít. Eventually you see them drown under a mountain of debt because theyíve been spending everything theyíve earned and more. Many of them probably have 69 month loans that theyíll trade in at 3 years and take a bath on depreciation and trade in value versus what they owe..
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      10-16-2019, 05:48 AM   #129
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I graduated from college with $3000 in student loan and paid it off the first month I got a job. The rest was paid for by GI Bill. I'm horrible with money but I learn early on not to owe the government either in student loan or taxes.
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      10-16-2019, 07:05 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by AlpineWhite_SJ View Post
Usually you can check on your paystub if your employer notes their contributions YTD or on your W-2 in box 12. Itíll be denoted under a line item with DD.
I'll have to see when I file next year as I started with my current employer this year.
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      10-16-2019, 09:00 AM   #131
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"Seven million people are at least 90 days behind on their payments, so is the fault with the lenders or people who are living beyond their means—or both?"

Its difficult for me to even get through the article after reading this question.

This is what's wrong with the American consumer. Nobody forces us as consumers to live outside of our means, no matter how enticing the proposition, sales pitch, financing offer, etc. To say otherwise means either that we 1) lack common sense, 2) are weak willed and willing to make decisions detrimental to our well being, 3) selfish and greedy, 4) easily cajoled or manipulated or 5) all of the above.

If you make a decision, be it financing or something else, own that decision and when/if you fail don't blame the system, predatory lending practices, your neighbor, your bank, your local politician for your inability to live like an adult.

Drives home on days when I read articles like this are sometimes thought provoking. At a red light next to my second-hand mile E92 M3 is a guy in a 2020 M4 CS. He's probably telling his wife how much better performance and luxury the M4 packs against my old M3, but more likely than not, that M4 CS is leased or financed to the hilt. The same guy probably calculates his net worth based on the 50K in his checking account, excluding the 200K in student, auto, rent-a-center and mortgage debt. And his Instagram sure looks good!
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      10-16-2019, 06:11 PM   #132
Efthreeoh
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Drives: E90 & Z4 Coupe
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I have 4 cars (3 BMWs) and a motorcycle; do I have a problem?
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