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      03-04-2018, 09:22 AM   #375
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I’ve been watching how Musk runs his business since the beginning, and while it’s been fascinating, it’s still difficult to understand how he just keeps getting away with the evangelism. He should call his next vehicle the Model OPM, to honor his ability to capture other people’s money. From the perspective of what customers see when they actually get their hands on one of his products, how many are disappointed or even embarrassed about investing in the hype?

A local used-car dealer just put a used 2017 Model X on his lot, and a quick look at it is another example of Musk’s ablities as a showman - not as a real-world detail guy. The fit and finish on this car was awful: It’s being displayed with the rear doors up, but one doesn’t work very well, so it looks like a bird trying to take off with a broken wing. In fact, overall the car looks like Stevie Wonder built it - with his feet. But the dealer bought into the hype - the price he’s asking for the car is just about what it cost new, 13,000 miles ago.
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      03-04-2018, 09:57 AM   #376
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Imagine the car world with no sound.
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      03-04-2018, 11:37 AM   #377
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuSh View Post
Many folks here are too optimistic. EV seem to be the future, but it's not guaranteed. At the current level of technology we can't sustain even 5% of population to have EVs. There's systemic issues in the country, not to mention the rest of the world. With exception of handful of countries 95% of world will never be able to go full EV in our lifetime (and I'm been optimistic). There's huge issues with battery production, rare earth element shortage, electric grid inability to sustain current state of affairs even without any EVs charged at homes or anywhere else. Solar panels need rare earth elements too (surprise) and it's a viscous cycle. Political issues, unresolved and not even close to be solved. There's tons of things to be fixed. At this point all we are looking at - hybrids ladies and gentlemen. Forget about EVs for mass market. Hybrids are the near future. Like for next 25-35 years
Basically the same arguments against horseless carriages, no roads, no repair shops, no dealers everywhere, mass production hadn't even been invented yet, and so on...
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      03-04-2018, 12:51 PM   #378
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Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Basically the same arguments against horseless carriages, no roads, no repair shops, no dealers everywhere, mass production hadn't even been invented yet, and so on...
You are somewhat joking, but in fact you don't realize how true you are. It took us what? About good 3-4 decades to fully go from horse carriages to a somewhat established car industry (and personally for me a descent choice of cars and manufacturers with a good cars that finally got options - only became viable in 70-80s - that's like 80 years to transition from horses to a somewhat descent cars). Exactly what I'm saying - we'll need 30-40 years to come to that full EV mass market, maybe a bit faster this time.
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      03-04-2018, 12:59 PM   #379
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Originally Posted by Spa2k View Post
Iíve been watching how Musk runs his business since the beginning, and while itís been fascinating, itís still difficult to understand how he just keeps getting away with the evangelism. He should call his next vehicle the Model OPM, to honor his ability to capture other peopleís money. From the perspective of what customers see when they actually get their hands on one of his products, how many are disappointed or even embarrassed about investing in the hype?

A local used-car dealer just put a used 2017 Model X on his lot, and a quick look at it is another example of Muskís ablities as a showman - not as a real-world detail guy. The fit and finish on this car was awful: Itís being displayed with the rear doors up, but one doesnít work very well, so it looks like a bird trying to take off with a broken wing. In fact, overall the car looks like Stevie Wonder built it - with his feet. But the dealer bought into the hype - the price heís asking for the car is just about what it cost new, 13,000 miles ago.


For me it's not only fit and finish. I can forgive bad fit and finish, if car has luxury inside and out and good design. Tesla models look like Ford Crown Victoria beaten cars from outside - except I like rear, rear is good (looks like Jag). Inside they are a sad story, I've seen Infinity look better and more luxurious (and Infinity is low in my book lol). Model X is closer - they are doing progress. Maybe their next gen cars will finally have some descent interior that won't cause tears to roll out of your eyes looking at them

I mean it's like Toyota beater vs BMW luxury - no contest for me
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      03-04-2018, 01:28 PM   #380
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Forgive me, but even Model X (which i think is best looking Tesla so far) looks liek a Prius on steroids.
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      03-04-2018, 01:37 PM   #381
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To sum it up:
1. Interior - X5M hands down better
2. Exterior - unless you are a Prius fan lol - X5M wins here too
3. Usability/freedom - this is the biggest for me: I just can't use Tesla if I'm away from home living on campus, unlike X5M that I can fuel up in 10 min. Tesla is good for settled home owners, but it's not as universal like a gas engine car. Sorry, but big win for BMW here too
4. Handling - Tesla won't stand a chance on a track. X5M wins hands down
5. Straight line speed, highways etc. - Tesla has better 0-60, but loses at higher speeds, with 1/4 mile been a more or less close
6. Price - Probably a tie if you don't take P100D
7. Fuel economy - big win for Tesla

So let's sum up: X5M won in 4 categories, Tesla won in 1 category. Tied in 2 categories. So 4 to 1. If in future Tesla will design better exterior/interior, get better chassis - then it can become as desirable for me as X5M (but Tesla will still lose badly in usability/freedom)
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      03-04-2018, 04:16 PM   #382
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuSh View Post
You are somewhat joking, but in fact you don't realize how true you are. It took us what? About good 3-4 decades to fully go from horse carriages to a somewhat established car industry (and personally for me a descent choice of cars and manufacturers with a good cars that finally got options - only became viable in 70-80s - that's like 80 years to transition from horses to a somewhat descent cars). Exactly what I'm saying - we'll need 30-40 years to come to that full EV mass market, maybe a bit faster this time.
But, it's a gradual change, there's no "switch" that gets thrown and all of a sudden, the cars and infrastructure appear, it's already happening, will be greater in some areas, less in others. There'll be plenty of practical EV cars in a relatively short amount of time, 5-10 years, and recharging them won't be a big deal. Yes, for the entire auto industry to switch over and to see ICE engines gone from the roads, it'll take decades, at least, but practical EVs are already here and their improving practicality and decreasing cost will build on the foothold they currently have.
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      03-04-2018, 04:18 PM   #383
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuSh View Post


For me it's not only fit and finish. I can forgive bad fit and finish, if car has luxury inside and out and good design. Tesla models look like Ford Crown Victoria beaten cars from outside - except I like rear, rear is good (looks like Jag). Inside they are a sad story, I've seen Infinity look better and more luxurious (and Infinity is low in my book lol). Model X is closer - they are doing progress. Maybe their next gen cars will finally have some descent interior that won't cause tears to roll out of your eyes looking at them

I mean it's like Toyota beater vs BMW luxury - no contest for me
Is that because you got your interior in red?
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      03-05-2018, 06:15 AM   #384
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuSh View Post
You are somewhat joking, but in fact you don't realize how true you are. It took us what? About good 3-4 decades to fully go from horse carriages to a somewhat established car industry (and personally for me a descent choice of cars and manufacturers with a good cars that finally got options - only became viable in 70-80s - that's like 80 years to transition from horses to a somewhat descent cars). Exactly what I'm saying - we'll need 30-40 years to come to that full EV mass market, maybe a bit faster this time.
Eh, you need to go back and review the history of the automobile. It did not take 30 to 40 years for the automobile to overtake and become the dominant form of transportation over the horse. In the short span of 24 years Ford Motor Company built 15 million Model T's alone (US population in 1920 was just 100M people). The automobile offered a far better product for transportation than did the horse. [Your comment that cars didn't get decent until the 1980's is pretty funny.] The EV does not offer anywhere near the same step in fitness for use that the automobile did vs. the horse. The EV is competing in an industry full of excellent products produced at a very good price (relative to annual income). The only reason EVs are even a discussion point is due to political fashion rather than practicality.
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      03-05-2018, 08:30 AM   #385
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Eh, you need to go back and review the history of the automobile. It did not take 30 to 40 years for the automobile to overtake and become the dominant form of transportation over the horse. In the short span of 24 years Ford Motor Company built 15 million Model T's alone (US population in 1920 was just 100M people). The automobile offered a far better product for transportation than did the horse. [Your comment that cars didn't get decent until the 1980's is pretty funny.] The EV does not offer anywhere near the same step in fitness for use that the automobile did vs. the horse. The EV is competing in an industry full of excellent products produced at a very good price (relative to annual income). The only reason EVs are even a discussion point is due to political fashion rather than practicality.
The first horseless carriages started showing up in what, the 1880s, right? That was the first production model, so yeah, 30-40 years is about right. There were a few sporadic steam-powered models earlier, but the benz-patent horseless carriage was 1885.
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      03-05-2018, 10:24 AM   #386
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuSh View Post


For me it's not only fit and finish. I can forgive bad fit and finish, if car has luxury inside and out and good design. Tesla models look like Ford Crown Victoria beaten cars from outside - except I like rear, rear is good (looks like Jag). Inside they are a sad story, I've seen Infinity look better and more luxurious (and Infinity is low in my book lol). Model X is closer - they are doing progress. Maybe their next gen cars will finally have some descent interior that won't cause tears to roll out of your eyes looking at them

I mean it's like Toyota beater vs BMW luxury - no contest for me
Fixed it for ya






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      03-05-2018, 10:48 AM   #387
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Fixed it for ya






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Is that why you hide ugly Tesla dash panel and only show us seats? While you show BMW dash in a non M Sport economy trim lol? Well, hate to bring bad news, but BMW still looks better
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      03-05-2018, 10:51 AM   #388
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuSh View Post
Is that why you hide ugly Tesla dash panel and only show us seats? While you show BMW dash in a non M Sport economy trim lol? Well, hate to bring bad news, but BMW still looks better
It's cute that your entire "interior" category is defined by looks.

How about... hugely, absurdly more interior space in the same size car? That seems far more meaningful to me than something as trivial as dash board look.
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      03-05-2018, 10:54 AM   #389
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Originally Posted by DuSh View Post
Is that why you hide ugly Tesla dash panel and only show us seats? While you show BMW dash in a non M Sport economy trim lol? Well, hate to bring bad news, but BMW still looks better
I was being sarcastic
You picked the best interior for X5 and the base one for Tesla (sedan)
I just did the reverse of that

However, I'm totally happy with mine.
Also, 2nd and 3rd row seats are a LOT nicer in Tesla

And it's awesome looking ride




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      03-05-2018, 12:48 PM   #390
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Arguing that a BMW has a luxurious interior is amusing. BMW does a lot of things well, but they always have sub standard interiors.
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      03-05-2018, 12:48 PM   #391
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The Tesla X seating arrangement for 6 is far superior, itís two rows of two in back of the front seats and it offsets the seats so everyone has legroom, not shown in these pictures, but itís what I saw in the showroom last week.
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      03-05-2018, 01:27 PM   #392
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Arguing that a BMW has a luxurious interior is amusing. BMW does a lot of things well, but they always have sub standard interiors.
I prefer to think of it as "Form Following Function."
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      03-05-2018, 01:31 PM   #393
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Arguing that a BMW has a luxurious interior is amusing. BMW does a lot of things well, but they always have sub standard interiors.
I prefer to think of it as "Form Following Function."
Absolutely, but MB and Audi certainly cater to the "luxury" end of the spectrum more than BMW, and of course the more expensive brands do too. But even the last 6GC, which was as nice as BMW has done seems pale in comparison to a basic A6 or E Class, much less an A8, S Class or Jag XJ.

Tesla is just okay, but I'd say the same of BMW. Calling one a winner is like picking from the hot girl's ugly sidekicks.
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      03-05-2018, 01:58 PM   #394
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The Tesla X seating arrangement for 6 is far superior, itís two rows of two in back of the front seats and it offsets the seats so everyone has legroom, not shown in these pictures, but itís what I saw in the showroom last week.
And you still get the front trunk for cargo.
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      03-05-2018, 02:37 PM   #395
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
The first horseless carriages started showing up in what, the 1880s, right? That was the first production model, so yeah, 30-40 years is about right. There were a few sporadic steam-powered models earlier, but the benz-patent horseless carriage was 1885.
1890 is generally the accepted start of the automobile industry. Automobiles were a step change in transportation technology and still it took off like a rocket as an industry. It is clearly recognized that Henry Ford brought automotive transportation to the masses in a relatively short time frame, which I eluded to previously. It wasn't 30 to 40 years in progression. If we really look at the progress of EV, it's 100 years behind ICE; that is if we are using the same accounting standards...
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      03-08-2018, 08:30 AM   #396
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They've lost a boat load of sales to Jaguar and Audi in Norway, both the iPace and E-Tron have thousands of pre orders each, alls those would have gone to Tesla a couple of years ago.
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