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      02-21-2019, 06:06 PM   #1321
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Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
It's not a FACT until it's actually a fact. Are EV (including production costs) more environmentally friendly than combustion engine cars CURRENTLY? I'm not concerned with your estimate of how we may be on Mars in 15 years, I'm concerned with the logistics of today.
The logistics of tomorrow will become the logistics of today simply through the passage of time. If we don't plan for tomorrow based on what we know today, then we will be left with our dicks in our hands when tomorrow comes.

FACTS:

The ICE has ONE fuel source, which is NOT clean.
The EV has MANY fuel sources, some of which are clean.

The EV gives us OPTIONS. The ICE does not.
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      02-21-2019, 06:06 PM   #1322
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Originally Posted by jmg View Post
I've posted this many times, but the potential to be much much cleaner and more efficient than a distribution system based on the ICE is more than fairy farts and unicorns. This IS the real world, there are REAL advantages. Ignoring it is closer to living in a fantasy world, yet it's worse because it purposefully putting on blinders for the sake of cognitive bias.
Iím not. Itís POSSIBLE, but it hasnít happened YET.
Who knows what they next battery tech may be? Could be something that is more harmful but chargers faster - then what?

Thatís the problem with hypotheticals.
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      02-21-2019, 06:09 PM   #1323
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Originally Posted by Thescout13 View Post
Lmao. Ok man, you live in your oil man bear chest pounding bubble. I know I have the facts on my side, and the fact is, EV production is already more environmentally friendly than ICE production and life time pollution is. And that article was linked to show just that. But sure, unicorn and rainbow farts or whatever nonsense you want to spout to support your attack without substantiation or the accountability to actually support your baseless claims. I don't even want to challenge you to link to any facts, because from the tone of your post I'm already confident it will be seekingalpha, Breitbart, kochindustries, Exxon, Fox, weloveoilooyeswedo.com, etc. No worries. You do you.

We are already f*cked anyway, so this shit doesn't matter really. Just two keyboard warriors with our proverbial d*cks in our hand.

Here's to hoping your kids and grandkids don't drown in Florida right alongside my fact denying parents.
But your link doesnít actually say that. In fact, EV production is actually MORE harmful to the environment than gasoline, but they can make up ground based on where they obtain their power.

Youíre taking my criticism of your talking point in favor of climate denial and hate of EVa, and there couldnít be anything further from the truth.
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      02-21-2019, 06:20 PM   #1324
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Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
Iím not. Itís POSSIBLE, but it hasnít happened YET.
Who knows what they next battery tech may be? Could be something that is more harmful but chargers faster - then what?
I'd rather think about the possibilities than not think at all.

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Originally Posted by Taskmaster View Post
Thatís the problem with hypotheticals.
As opposed to doing nothing until we are way too far up a creek without a paddle? I can't subscribe to that. I believe we control our own destiny. Hypotheticals are a way to make known what is unknown through analysis, experiments, innovation, and peer review. I like to think that we make as best a decision we can based on what we know, rather than using ignorance as an excuse and fear as a motive to do nothing at all.
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      02-21-2019, 06:24 PM   #1325
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Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
No it isn't; it is posting articles and information relevant to the discussion.
You are right, it is relevant to the discussion, but I didn't say it was not relevant. I said it was fear mongering. If you look at the original post in this thread, it's fear mongering by definition.
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      02-21-2019, 06:35 PM   #1326
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For the record I like Fairy Farts and Unicorns

This is an entertaining debate and a good one because no one is getting personal.

I will add that I agree with Taskmaster about the many hypotheticals being tossed around.

Made me think of Al Gore and the Climate Apocalypse nonsense but let's save that for another thread.
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      02-21-2019, 06:54 PM   #1327
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
I will add that I agree with Taskmaster about the many hypotheticals being tossed around.
Yes but I don't think we should be throwing out the baby with the bath water. Yes, there are hypotheticals, but there are also currently some big advantages to the EV over the ICE. The potential is even bigger imho simply because the EV is flexible in how we source our energy. The biggest hurtle to the EV is the battery. Can we make them economically and environmentally more viable compared to the ICE? My opinion: of course we can because necessity is the mother of invention. We simply HAVE TO, and the EV has a better chance of reaching that goal than the ICE does mainly by design.
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      02-21-2019, 07:08 PM   #1328
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
I will add that I agree with Taskmaster about the many hypotheticals being tossed around.
Yes but I don't think we should be throwing out the baby with the bath water. Yes, there are hypotheticals, but there are also currently some big advantages to the EV over the ICE. The potential is even bigger imho simply because the EV is flexible in how we source our energy. The biggest hurtle to the EV is the battery. Can we make them economically and environmentally more viable compared to the ICE? My opinion: of course we can because necessity is the mother of invention. We simply HAVE TO, and the EV has a better chance of reaching that goal than the ICE does mainly by design.
Ok but why do we HAVE to? I don't think we, you, I, car manufacturers, society has to do anything.

Are you saying we (society) HAS to develop better EV battery technology etc etc.... because ICE is going to destroy Mother Earth?

Now that's a rather large Hypothetical
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      02-21-2019, 07:19 PM   #1329
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Originally Posted by ///M4ster Yoda View Post
Ok but why do we HAVE to? I don't think we, you, I, car manufacturers, society has to do anything.

Are you saying we (society) HAS to develop better EV battery technology etc etc.... because ICE is going to destroy Mother Earth?

Now that's a rather large Hypothetical
Because fossil fuels are finite. Eventually, demand will far outweigh supply. We should be exploring the solution now because like we can all agree, the EV isn't 100% there YET. Wouldn't it be smart to start the ball rolling now while we still can? Solar, wind, hydro, those are RENEWABLE. Personally, I don't wait for the water to be turned off before I pay the utility bill. Action is better than reaction.
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      02-22-2019, 01:48 PM   #1330
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Now it is getting interesting:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2019-...ing-five-homes
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      02-22-2019, 01:52 PM   #1331
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Is he trying to hedge his own career? I mean if Tesla does not work out, at least he still has his real estate businesses.
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      02-22-2019, 02:47 PM   #1332
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Because fossil fuels are finite. Eventually, demand will far outweigh supply. We should be exploring the solution now because like we can all agree, the EV isn't 100% there YET. Wouldn't it be smart to start the ball rolling now while we still can? Solar, wind, hydro, those are RENEWABLE. Personally, I don't wait for the water to be turned off before I pay the utility bill. Action is better than reaction.
^^^
This
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      02-23-2019, 07:55 AM   #1333
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
Is he trying to hedge his own career? I mean if Tesla does not work out, at least he still has his real estate businesses.
no idea but the guy has a net worth of $23b... that is a lot of money to go bust on. it's not like he has rapper money with the lifestyle to match so plowing through $23b would be highly unlikely so i have to think he is going to plunk the money into tsla to keep it afloat because they may just be on the brink of profitability... or not.
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      02-24-2019, 10:11 AM   #1334
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Because fossil fuels are finite. Eventually, demand will far outweigh supply. We should be exploring the solution now because like we can all agree, the EV isn't 100% there YET. Wouldn't it be smart to start the ball rolling now while we still can? Solar, wind, hydro, those are RENEWABLE. Personally, I don't wait for the water to be turned off before I pay the utility bill. Action is better than reaction.
I agree with all of this except for the fact that we don't know if fossil fuels are finite. We have been threatened with fossil fuels running out since the 1970's. It hasn't happened yet and I somehow don't think it will ever occur. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't be good stewards but rather be proactive as you said.

Cheers-mk
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      02-24-2019, 10:23 AM   #1335
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Because fossil fuels are finite. Eventually, demand will far outweigh supply. We should be exploring the solution now because like we can all agree, the EV isn't 100% there YET. Wouldn't it be smart to start the ball rolling now while we still can? Solar, wind, hydro, those are RENEWABLE. Personally, I don't wait for the water to be turned off before I pay the utility bill. Action is better than reaction.
I agree with all of this except for the fact that we don't know if fossil fuels are finite. We have been threatened with fossil fuels running out since the 1970's. It hasn't happened yet and I somehow don't think it will ever occur. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't be good stewards but rather be proactive as you said.

Cheers-mk
Yup. I thought the same thing. Will we ever run out? Who knows.

I just don't buy into the hype that electric cars are the be all end all for Mother Earth.
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      02-24-2019, 01:32 PM   #1336
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iconoclast View Post
no idea but the guy has a net worth of $23b... that is a lot of money to go bust on. it's not like he has rapper money with the lifestyle to match so plowing through $23b would be highly unlikely so i have to think he is going to plunk the money into tsla to keep it afloat because they may just be on the brink of profitability... or not.
I was joking. It's not like Elon Musk is trying to get certificated to become a real estate agent. Although if for some reason Tesla goes under, a lot of his $23B won't be there.
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      02-24-2019, 02:42 PM   #1337
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MKSixer View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Because fossil fuels are finite. Eventually, demand will far outweigh supply. We should be exploring the solution now because like we can all agree, the EV isn't 100% there YET. Wouldn't it be smart to start the ball rolling now while we still can? Solar, wind, hydro, those are RENEWABLE. Personally, I don't wait for the water to be turned off before I pay the utility bill. Action is better than reaction.
I agree with all of this except for the fact that we don't know if fossil fuels are finite. We have been threatened with fossil fuels running out since the 1970's. It hasn't happened yet and I somehow don't think it will ever occur. This doesn't mean that we shouldn't be good stewards but rather be proactive as you said.

Cheers-mk
Pretty much every single natural resource is finite, even the sun. The sun, however, is probably going to burn for another 5 billion years. If you think about it, hydro is energy takes from the water cycle. Evaporation, condensation, precipitation into flowing rivers. It's taking advantage of a cycle that takes a relatively small amount of time than the formation of fossil fuels, which takes millions and millions of years to make. We are certainly burning fuel faster than oil is naturally being formed. It's only a matter of time until we run out. Will it take 100 years or 10000? I'm sure a google search will yield a result that many will either choose to believe or not based on their own biases or emotions attachment to their own beliefs. But logically, anything finite will run out at some point in time.
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      02-24-2019, 02:58 PM   #1338
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Pretty much every single natural resource is finite, even the sun. The sun, however, is probably going to burn for another 5 billion years. If you think about it, hydro is energy takes from the water cycle. Evaporation, condensation, precipitation into flowing rivers. It's taking advantage of a cycle that takes a relatively small amount of time than the formation of fossil fuels, which takes millions and millions of years to make. We are certainly burning fuel faster than oil is naturally being formed. It's only a matter of time until we run out. Will it take 100 years or 10000? I'm sure a google search will yield a result that many will either choose to believe or not based on their own biases or emotions attachment to their own beliefs. But logically, anything finite will run out at some point in time.
The ultimate holy grail is nuclear fusion - practically limitless source of energy.
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      02-24-2019, 07:21 PM   #1339
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Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Pretty much every single natural resource is finite, even the sun. The sun, however, is probably going to burn for another 5 billion years. If you think about it, hydro is energy takes from the water cycle. Evaporation, condensation, precipitation into flowing rivers. It's taking advantage of a cycle that takes a relatively small amount of time than the formation of fossil fuels, which takes millions and millions of years to make. We are certainly burning fuel faster than oil is naturally being formed. It's only a matter of time until we run out. Will it take 100 years or 10000? I'm sure a google search will yield a result that many will either choose to believe or not based on their own biases or emotions attachment to their own beliefs. But logically, anything finite will run out at some point in time.
The ultimate holy grail is nuclear fusion - practically limitless source of energy.
Coincidentally that's what's happening on the sun.
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      02-24-2019, 07:33 PM   #1340
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmg View Post
Pretty much every single natural resource is finite, even the sun. The sun, however, is probably going to burn for another 5 billion years. If you think about it, hydro is energy takes from the water cycle. Evaporation, condensation, precipitation into flowing rivers. It's taking advantage of a cycle that takes a relatively small amount of time than the formation of fossil fuels, which takes millions and millions of years to make. We are certainly burning fuel faster than oil is naturally being formed. It's only a matter of time until we run out. Will it take 100 years or 10000? I'm sure a google search will yield a result that many will either choose to believe or not based on their own biases or emotions attachment to their own beliefs. But logically, anything finite will run out at some point in time.
All true.

I'm always cautious of manmade prognostications about finite elements. I've lived through multiple announcements of the end of all resources, including water and air. These are headline grabbing predictions that have proven wrong since the first end-of-the-earth announcements thousands of years ago. I'm not going by emotions or biases but history.

It's good to see you posting again, my friend. Truly good.

Cheers-mk
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      02-24-2019, 07:36 PM   #1341
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It's not the tech or the idea of EV I dislike... It is Musk and Tesla itself.
Spot on.
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      02-24-2019, 08:27 PM   #1342
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Meanwhile in Florida:
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Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
The ultimate holy grail is nuclear fusion - practically limitless source of energy.
Hydrogen would be the best bet for a green renewable, sustainable solution and most realistic but the powers that be have spoken and they tell us that EV is what we want.
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