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      04-19-2021, 02:54 PM   #45
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Damn, talk about a banana in the tailpipe trick
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      04-19-2021, 02:56 PM   #46
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Autonomous driving should be made to obey traffic laws and rules at all times
Speed limited strictly enforce. Turn signal, stop signs lane changes etc.
The fact that the car was able to illegally exceed the speed limit while in autonomous driving mode means it was never meant to be a safety features rather a convenience feature
A safety features would be like your DCT no allowing you to purposely exceed the mechanical rev limit of the S55

At the end of the day it's a stupid game and they won the ultimate stupid prize
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      04-19-2021, 03:07 PM   #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pikkagtr View Post
Autonomous driving should be made to obey traffic laws and rules at all times
Speed limited strictly enforce. Turn signal, stop signs lane changes etc.
The fact that the car was able to illegally exceed the speed limit while in autonomous driving mode means it was never meant to be a safety features rather a convenience feature
A safety features would be like your DCT no allowing you to purposely exceed the mechanical rev limit of the S55

At the end of the day it's a stupid game and they won the ultimate stupid prize
Super off-topic but on S55 does DCT upshift at rev limit or bounce off the limiter?

Also this entire discussion is based on the presumption that the autonomous driving features were active which I believe to be an assumption that is based on insufficient evidence. It makes for better articles with more clicks/reads/revenue, but if I was stuck in the driver's seat of a car that's on fire I'd sure as hell try opening another door if I was able to move...
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      04-19-2021, 07:18 PM   #48
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Originally Posted by M_Six View Post
The truly disturbing part was that fire. 4 hours and 32,000 gallons of water to extinguish it. WTF? And how much of all that runoff was toxic?
The fire department didn't extinguish the fire. They couldn't, so they let it burn out.
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      04-19-2021, 07:25 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by LemansE90335xi View Post
Idiots will find a way to defeat those safeguards and then sue Tesla when they crash.
You sir, win The Internet today. Congratulations!!
There hasn't been a safety device invented to this very day that can't be defeated by some idiot.

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      04-19-2021, 07:34 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Fly320s View Post
The fire department didn't extinguish the fire. They couldn't, so they let it burn out.
The thing I find odd is in one pic I saw of the wreck the tire was still largely intact. I would have thought the fire would have melted that to nothing.
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      04-19-2021, 08:17 PM   #51
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Elon's claiming this car was not equipped with FSD (the autopilot program). Curiouser and curiouser.
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      04-19-2021, 08:57 PM   #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Six View Post
Elon's claiming this car was not equipped with FSD (the autopilot program). Curiouser and curiouser.
Of course he is. He has to set up his lawsuit defence.
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      04-19-2021, 09:10 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Six View Post
Elon's claiming this car was not equipped with FSD (the autopilot program). Curiouser and curiouser.
I haven't been following this so I don't know what Elon said, however FSD and the FSD beta are not the same thing. You can have purchased FSD and not have the beta. Also you can have regular autopilot which will essentially do a lot of the same stuff FSD will do. So basically if you want to be an idiot you can do it with any of those 3.

Luckily they didn't hit anyone else. Darwin took care of the rest.
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      04-19-2021, 09:10 PM   #54
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Germany banned naming of Autopilot and FSD on Tesla vehicles. It is at best level 3 autonomy.

The issue with these accidents is that buyers are not trained to operate these vehicles. In US avg driver never opens a vehicle manual. These cars are missles on roads. How can this company sell this falsely advertisied feature to folks that can barely drive a golf cart?

Why does Tesla want to have the reputation of causing these accidents is hard to understand. I do understand they need sales to sell carbon credits but why put this tech in the hands of people when they don't understand how it works and there are no sufficient safeguards?
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      04-19-2021, 10:25 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Smooth 330i View Post
Germany banned naming of Autopilot and FSD on Tesla vehicles. It is at best level 3 autonomy.

The issue with these accidents is that buyers are not trained to operate these vehicles. In US avg driver never opens a vehicle manual. These cars are missles on roads. How can this company sell this falsely advertisied feature to folks that can barely drive a golf cart?

Why does Tesla want to have the reputation of causing these accidents is hard to understand. I do understand they need sales to sell carbon credits but why put this tech in the hands of people when they don't understand how it works and there are no sufficient safeguards?
This argument is dumb. People will misuse things and it's the manufacturer's fault?
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      04-19-2021, 11:27 PM   #56
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I heard this story and already thought how stupid this whole thing is and how preventable it was. Tesla should not be at fault because they do state that someone should be behind the wheel & paying attention. If I was a judge and a civil case came in front of me in this matter I'd throw it out. Stupidity is too often rewarded. If you break into someone's house and you slip and break your hip, you should not be able to sue the home owner. That woman that ordered hot coffee, got it, and put the cup between her legs while driving instead of a cup holder burned herself. SHe should NOT have been able to sue and win but she did. Some woman recently wants to sue Gorilla Glue because she used it as hair gel and then fcuked up her hair. WHERE has Gorilla Glue EVER said it was to be used as a hair product!? There should be a common sense & stupidity clause that can be expressed in these dumb ass cases. Just my opinion
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      04-19-2021, 11:47 PM   #57
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Craziest thing to me is....

“The crash Saturday resulted in a fire that took firefighters on the scene four hours to put out, using 32,000 gallons of water.”
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      04-20-2021, 12:15 AM   #58
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i dont get why people are ragging on tesla here. clearly the two people in the car were examples of Darwinism in action. plenty of instagram videos of people sleeping at the wheel or chillin with the seat fully reclined staring at the ceiling.
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      04-20-2021, 01:38 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evil-G-nius View Post
If you break into someone's house and you slip and break your hip, you should not be able to sue the home owner.
Nobody will disagree with you there, but it goes up to a point. You should not be setting up traps intended to maim an intruder. You'll lose all your money that way, maybe even quite a bit of your freedom. That's why a courtroom and lawyers exist - to help find the exact point where something in acceptable or not in a specific circumstance.

Quote:
That woman that ordered hot coffee, got it, and put the cup between her legs while driving instead of a cup holder burned herself. SHe should NOT have been able to sue and win but she did.
It should be pretty common knowledge by now but apparently it is not. That specific case was twisted and used to turn the public opinion against people who sued for damaged from a company for wrongdoing and get awarded from punitive damage on top. That slimy marketing campaign was very effective. What kind of idiot should deserve money for spilling lukewarm coffee on themselves while driving? Again, everyone would agree with you except that's not even close to what happened in that case.

I'll summarize a few points to show why the punitive damage award of $3 million dollars was not enough for this victim, but you can read more details at https://www.caoc.org/?pg=facts or many, many other sites.
  • McDonald’s operations manual required the franchisee to hold its coffee at 180 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit.
  • (79-year old Stella) Liebeck’s case was far from an isolated event. McDonald’s had received more than 700 previous reports of injury from its coffee, including reports of third-degree burns, and had paid settlements in some cases.
  • Mrs. Liebeck was not driving when her coffee spilled, nor was the car she was in moving. She was the passenger in a car...
  • She was wearing sweatpants that absorbed the coffee and kept it against her skin. She suffered third-degree burns (the most serious kind) and required skin grafts on her inner thighs and elsewhere.
  • Mrs. Liebeck offered to settle the case for $20,000 to cover her medical expenses and lost income. But McDonald’s never offered more than $800, so the case went to trial.
  • a jury awarded her nearly $3 million in punitive damages for the burns she suffered.

If you couldn't tell, the "elsewhere" is referring to her genitals.

Based on these points, do you think she should have been able to successfully sue?

Quote:
There should be a common sense & stupidity clause that can be expressed in these dumb ass cases. Just my opinion
A "common sense & stupidity clause" wouldn't be so easy to implement. There are ways the procedures in our legal system can weaponized to punish victims. It's very difficult to predict every single circumstance of how the judicial system can be misused. It's also very difficult to prevent this misuse in a fair and just way on the first try all the while anticipating and preventing ways the new rules/laws/clauses can be misused. I would bet a good amount of money that you can spend your whole life to come up the best version of such a clause and it would take only a few days for someone to figure out a way to effectively abuse it.

Having access to a courtroom with an impartial judge and jury of peers is an elegant solution that solves a lot of complexity. It's not the most optimal solution because every now and then, even ridiculous cases will be given their time in court. The benefit is that it sets a precedent for similar ridiculous cases so at least they serve a good purpose.

Back on the original topic, as someone with a computer science degree that flunked out of grad school before I even applied, my "expert" opinion is that only a complete moron would put that much trust in Telsa's autopilot or self-driving system. Like severely stupid with a clinical diagnosis.

You can't have reliable, safe, autonomous driving by relying on GPS, cameras, and other inaccurate sensors. You need many redundant precision location markers embedded in the road surface and smart, inter-connected infrastructure (e.g. a stop sign existing in a specific location, a speed limit changing based on road conditions/hazards/traffic, a traffic light for the east-west direction on intersection of A Ave and B St telling vehicles in a X mile radius it will be switching to a yellow light at time Y and red light at time Z). A vehicle driving at speed with passengers, around other occupied vehicles, and around pedestrians is a safety critical operation that is far more complex than it seems people want to admit. Autopilot on an airplane taking off on its own and landing on its own thousands of miles away is an easier task to automate than autonomous vehicles. In my opinion, it's more complex than autopilot for airplanes because the number of variables can quickly increase to hundreds with an exponential increase in number of calculations while airplanes have much less traffic (and no pedestrians that we care about) to deal with.

Telsa knows that morons exist. They know that their auto pilot, self-driving functionality can be misused. Have they done enough to inform the morons that they should not misuse these systems? Have they done what they reasonably can to prevent dangerous misuse of those systems? I don't think Tesla has. Based on that opinion and the little information we have on this incident so far, the families of the people that died in the Telsa certainly do have a legitimate case.

Last edited by Ximian; 04-20-2021 at 01:53 AM..
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      04-20-2021, 07:30 AM   #60
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This right here is Tesla’s biggest up-hill battle, which also happens to be humanities biggest underlying battle. Convincing the masses who refuse to look at facts, data, progress, who over react to one incident of idiots doing illegal things and blame a car-shaped hunk of metal as the root cause overlooking the obvious fact it was two people that committed suicide (accidental or intentional), think robots are invading and technology is out to get us, put two fingers up in the shape of a cross at “innovation”, prefer to use illogical reasoning as the the starting point of a flawed argument then heap on more unfounded wild assumptions to bolster it. Prefer not to use common sense or reasoning and go with initial reaction without fully understanding.

For every person who died in a Tesla by an error of the car, the Tesla is estimated to have saved hundreds of thousands of real lives with it’s advanced safety features and it’s getting better EVERY DAY… That ratio is VERY acceptable to me, but maybe not everyone, so what’s your ratio?

How does one dispute any of the following:
- lets make humanity better
- lets make cars safer for occupants, and pets too
- lets make cars safer for all those outside the car
- lets make technology that aids drivers when they make a mistake, because they will
- lets make the car exciting
- lets take advantage of technology to improve the life of people
- lets set high goals and challenge ourselves to do something amazing
- lets help the environment by being the catalyst to EV’s
- lets take ownership for each issue, and immediately resolve them for ALL our owners
- lets challenge the legacy auto makers who stifle progress and over-charge
- for American’s… lets support an American owned & operated company
- for other countries, lets support a local manufacturer creating tens of thousands of jobs
- for BMW owners, you don’t think Tesla lit a raging fire under their pants to make a better BMW?

The list goes on and on and on. And all that the masses see is… Tesla is the problem when two idiots commit suicide by auto accident. I feel for the families and impacts of these losses. But it ain’t the car’s fault, and it ain’t Tesla’s fault. Do you blame hammer when you smash your finger on a missed swing? Sue Stanley? Sue Home Depot to make a better hammer? Or should you pay attention and wear a glove?

Tesla is the safest vehicle on the road FACT, it’s 10x safer than vehicles without advanced safety features, and it’s 4x safer than any BMW on the road. All FACTS. Yet it’s the Tesla car that’s problem?

Have a look here: https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport
Or check out any of the government safety ratings which Teslas are consistently highest

It’s amazing how many people are against safety, progress, innovation, inspiring others? And over all this, how many will side with manufactured fake news stories produced by short-sellers trying to get Tesla stock to fall.

I don’t own a Tesla, never have, don’t know if I will. but it blows my mind how anyone can see anything other than a company of good people trying to do great things.

Sorry for the rant, don’t mean to offend… but things are off the rails these days. How do we get back on them?
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      04-20-2021, 07:59 AM   #61
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kring View Post
Sorry for the rant, don’t mean to offend… but things are off the rails these days. How do we get back on them?
The primary issue here is not whether automated machines - with proper evolution and implementation of the technology - can be more reliable, consistent, and safer than human beings. Instead the biggest concern is what state of evolution the tech is currently in vs. where corporate players might be suggesting we are.

(From: https://www.autoblog.com/2021/04/19/...my-regulation/)

Quote:
“Elon’s been totally irresponsible,” said Alain Kornhauser, faculty chair of autonomous vehicle engineering at Princeton University. Musk, he said, has sold the dream that the cars can drive themselves even though in the fine print Tesla says they're not ready. “It's not a game. This is serious stuff.”
Quote:
“There is no metric, there is no yes or no, black or white,” she said. She fears that Tesla is asserting that it's not a testing autonomous vehicles or putting self-driving cars on the road, while “getting away with using the general population of Tesla owners as guinea pigs to test the system."
Remember, Tesla's system is - by definition - currently at Level 2 autonomy. That means that it is roughly in line with the latest versions of other autonomous systems from a number of other automakers. Yet, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that some Tesla owners believe their vehicles to be on the very cusp of completely autonomous (Level 4 or 5) driving capability. What about the drivers of all the other brands of semi-autonomous vehicles our there? It would appear that perhaps they've been better informed by the manufacturer about the true abilities of their vehicles.

Sure, Tesla gets more press, and certainly there's enough disdain such that you could argue that they get more than their fair share on the negative side. But, even in that light, it would appear that the pied piper phenomena is very real here, and unfortunately, in this case it's coming with the very real, very high cost of human life.
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      04-20-2021, 09:09 AM   #62
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Originally Posted by ky0u View Post
The thing is, planes do have autopilot. They've had it for decades, but the pilot still isn't supposed leave it unattended or just fuck off out of the cockpit.
Really? Dammit. Now I have to change my habits.
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      04-20-2021, 09:13 AM   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M_Six View Post
The thing I find odd is in one pic I saw of the wreck the tire was still largely intact. I would have thought the fire would have melted that to nothing.
I thought the same thing. Maybe that part of the car burned/melted while the FD was spraying water which kept the tire cool? I don't know. Weird shit happens.
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      04-20-2021, 09:43 AM   #64
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Yes - a LOT of people with a axe to grind on this thread. Now the facts are starting to come out and it looks like probably going to be human caused. Have any of us not driven ridiculously at some point in our lives and were just a blowout or deer crossing away from being right here? I know I have been - many times.

I for one look forward to a day I can get in a vehicle and have it take me where I want to go with no input from me AND still have my fun 2 arms and 2 legs to drive car in the garage. Maybe they will be on other "roads" or maybe one with fly - I have no idea - but I know it won't just materialize without work like this being done.

I've never gotten the rage against it, but everyone is entitled to their opinions. I just think we should always put the blame where it belongs in each case. This one to me at least does not seem like Tesla is to blame. We shall see.
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      04-20-2021, 09:55 AM   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vivek. View Post
Super off-topic but on S55 does DCT upshift at rev limit or bounce off the limiter?

Also this entire discussion is based on the presumption that the autonomous driving features were active which I believe to be an assumption that is based on insufficient evidence. It makes for better articles with more clicks/reads/revenue, but if I was stuck in the driver's seat of a car that's on fire I'd sure as hell try opening another door if I was able to move...
Absolutely 100% agree. Don't blame autopilot just yet.
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      04-20-2021, 11:23 AM   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mkoesel View Post
The primary issue here is not whether automated machines - with proper evolution and implementation of the technology - can be more reliable, consistent, and safer than human beings. Instead the biggest concern is what state of evolution the tech is currently in vs. where corporate players might be suggesting we are.

(From: https://www.autoblog.com/2021/04/19/...my-regulation/)





Remember, Tesla's system is - by definition - currently at Level 2 autonomy. That means that it is roughly in line with the latest versions of other autonomous systems from a number of other automakers. Yet, there is plenty of evidence to suggest that some Tesla owners believe their vehicles to be on the very cusp of completely autonomous (Level 4 or 5) driving capability. What about the drivers of all the other brands of semi-autonomous vehicles our there? It would appear that perhaps they've been better informed by the manufacturer about the true abilities of their vehicles.

Sure, Tesla gets more press, and certainly there's enough disdain such that you could argue that they get more than their fair share on the negative side. But, even in that light, it would appear that the pied piper phenomena is very real here, and unfortunately, in this case it's coming with the very real, very high cost of human life.
this is the problem and its exacerbated by their ceo. how the FTC hasnt had a field day with this is shocking to me, especially since its been going on for years now.
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