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      04-20-2021, 12:50 PM   #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by six75LT View Post
this is the problem and its exacerbated by their ceo. how the FTC hasnt had a field day with this is shocking to me, especially since its been going on for years now.
Space Karen isn't doing any favors for Tesla. If you took a survey, I think it would show the average person expects every Tesla to have self-driving functionality because that's been their main talking point.

Unrelated, but below is my favorite video on YouTube. Volvo has been safety-oriented for decades. A while ago they introduced a pedestrian detection safety system for many cars and advertised it -



This car didn't have the pedestrian detection system equipped.
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      04-20-2021, 01:56 PM   #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unluky View Post
Meanwhile.........975 other MAN DRIVEN car wrecks happened within 100 miles of this event, but no no-one cares because it was not about some idiot that got out of the drivers seat in a car not equipped with "Full Self Driving" capabilities.

So if self driving cars (in the future - because they are NOT self driving cars now) kill 1/2 as many people as human driven cars - is it still "not ready" because a single person dies?

How many is acceptable? 50,000 die each year now with us idiots behind the wheel - so wouldn't 20,000 be better? Nothing is perfect.

I just wonder how many we as humans will be willing to accept as "normal" when the car is driving.
Useless statistics and not relevant to the topic.
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      04-20-2021, 05:16 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Useless statistics and not relevant to the topic.
Unasked for opinion and not relevant to my life.
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      04-20-2021, 05:21 PM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottSinger View Post
I think the discussion could be is Tesla creating a danger significantly different that had been accepted in 100 years of automobile travel. We can enforces drugged driving, excessive speed and vehicle mechanical safety as well as poorly designed roads. On the other hand can software / computer hardware associated with non-human interaction be held to the same standards (safety) and enforcement as with human drivers, and is that an advancement we want to accept.
I see what you are saying, but I see after 100 years we are still battling drugged driving, excessive speed and mechanical safety - are we not? Have they improved? VASTLY - but each time each of us get into a car - we accept that people will die to have automobiles stay legal.

I don't think we can hold a car any higher. If the net result is 50% less deaths - then the cars are doing better than people right?

If we only accept zero airline casualties - then we ground all airplanes. We at some level have to say a certain number of deaths is acceptable for humans to have air travel. I think the same has to apply here.

Humans driving cars was bad and got better.

Air travel was bad and got better.

We have to accept that the same path will be taken by self driving vehicles - correct? Or do we just never accept them at all?

Edit - this is probably all moot as it does not look like this wreck was a failure of the self driving car anyway, but our points still hold water.
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      04-20-2021, 06:12 PM   #71
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My take away here is that lawyers made the world a sadder place. Coffee should be hot, jerks.
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      04-20-2021, 06:17 PM   #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ximian View Post
This car didn't have the pedestrian detection system equipped.
That was the "official" response. Unofficially, without LIDAR supplement, the camera based systems have to detect movement first before an obstacle is validated. They'll gladly let you mow down anyone and anything stationary you intentionally drive towards.
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      04-20-2021, 08:28 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unluky View Post
Unasked for opinion and not relevant to my life.
Yet you found the need to comment about said unasked for opinion.
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      04-20-2021, 08:33 PM   #74
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unluky View Post
I see what you are saying, but I see after 100 years we are still battling drugged driving, excessive speed and mechanical safety - are we not? Have they improved? VASTLY - but each time each of us get into a car - we accept that people will die to have automobiles stay legal.

I don't think we can hold a car any higher. If the net result is 50% less deaths - then the cars are doing better than people right?

If we only accept zero airline casualties - then we ground all airplanes. We at some level have to say a certain number of deaths is acceptable for humans to have air travel. I think the same has to apply here.

Humans driving cars was bad and got better.

Air travel was bad and got better.

We have to accept that the same path will be taken by self driving vehicles - correct? Or do we just never accept them at all?

Edit - this is probably all moot as it does not look like this wreck was a failure of the self driving car anyway, but our points still hold water.
The key difference is responsibility.
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      04-20-2021, 08:49 PM   #75
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Local story was the car hit a tree on a culdesac.
It must have been lost to be traveling above neighborhood speeds.

Also, who needs an UBER, I will bring the Tesla for the ride home.
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      04-21-2021, 04:00 AM   #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lemetier View Post
That was the "official" response. Unofficially, without LIDAR supplement, the camera based systems have to detect movement first before an obstacle is validated. They'll gladly let you mow down anyone and anything stationary you intentionally drive towards.
In that time volvo had 2 systems. The volvo city safety system that had collision protection for cars (which I believe all volvo xc60's had of that period, but I believe that still has a lidar sensor), and an extra optional system called pedestrian detection (so an extra option you had to pay for).
Afaik cars with pedestrian detection had an extra sensor in the grille.
I don't see that sensor in the grille of that video, which makes me believe it was not equipped with pedestrian detection and only had city safety (car collision detection). Probably too technical for those white collared managers in that video....

This is what that sensor looked like in that generation of volvo xc60 (just left to the volvo badge):
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      04-21-2021, 05:10 AM   #77
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ky0u View Post
The thing is, planes do have autopilot. They've had it for decades, but the pilot still isn't supposed leave it unattended or just fuck off out of the cockpit. It's not a direct translation with the use in Teslas, but the basic concept is still the same.
No, aircraft autopilot is not the same basic concept. Aircraft operate in three dimensional space and air traffic control keeps aircraft separated from each other. Aircraft have numerous additional and backup safety systems to avoid collisions, especially in uncontrolled airspace, plus equipment redundancy. 99.9% of drivers do not understand air traffic safety.

So when Tesla uses the term Autopilot for it's self-driving capability, it is a misnomer and lets stupid people do what they do.
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      04-21-2021, 05:21 AM   #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unluky View Post
Meanwhile.........975 other MAN DRIVEN car wrecks happened within 100 miles of this event, but no no-one cares because it was not about some idiot that got out of the drivers seat in a car not equipped with "Full Self Driving" capabilities.

So if self driving cars (in the future - because they are NOT self driving cars now) kill 1/2 as many people as human driven cars - is it still "not ready" because a single person dies?

How many is acceptable? 50,000 die each year now with us idiots behind the wheel - so wouldn't 20,000 be better? Nothing is perfect.

I just wonder how many we as humans will be willing to accept as "normal" when the car is driving.
Mark my post...

We are never going to see significant reduction in traffic fatalities as the result of implementing autonomous driving under the current driving environment of today. That means the same number of total miles driven per year nationally, on the same roads, same volume of vehicles, and the same trips taken at the same average speed.

The only way autonomous vehicles will reduce human fatalities is from a complete redesign of the ground traffic system. That redesign is will only come at a seriously huge expense and drastic societal implications related to personal mobility. Most reductions of fatalities will be from humans not in the vehicles, where commerce comes to the human rather than the human driving to the commerce.
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      04-21-2021, 08:00 AM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
My take away here is that lawyers made the world a sadder place. Coffee should be hot, jerks.
Nah coffee should be served at 150-160F and that's on the hot side of actually being able to taste it.
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      04-21-2021, 08:09 AM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
The key difference is responsibility.
Explain?

1/2 the deaths is 1/2 the deaths - correct? What difference does it make who is responsible?

Now I know us idiots humans will HAVE to have someone to blame for any failure like always, but again - a gain is a gain in my book. If that can actually happen or not remains to be seen - but my point is - if they are always safer, yet still kill people - do we accept that?

My bet is we as humans cannot. If a asteroid hits the earth, we would need someone to go to jail because they "should have known".
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      04-21-2021, 08:10 AM   #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
Yet you found the need to comment about said unasked for opinion.
As did you in return........
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      04-21-2021, 09:14 AM   #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unluky View Post
Explain?

1/2 the deaths is 1/2 the deaths - correct? What difference does it make who is responsible?

Now I know us idiots humans will HAVE to have someone to blame for any failure like always, but again - a gain is a gain in my book. If that can actually happen or not remains to be seen - but my point is - if they are always safer, yet still kill people - do we accept that?

My bet is we as humans cannot. If a asteroid hits the earth, we would need someone to go to jail because they "should have known".
The problem with deaths related to traffic accidents is mostly the fault of one or both of the driver's involved. Most accidents are the result of either lack of proper training/talent, or lack of attention or sometimes both. We as a society do a terrible job at driver training and let even the most untalented people have licenses to drive. Granted, some small percentage are the result of poor road design, or poor road maintenance, but the vast majority of accidents are caused by driver error.

But ultimately preventing traffic accident deaths is the personal responsibility of each driver. Regardless of road design or condition, it is the driver's responsibility to prevent his car for being in the same space of another vehicle at the same time.

The idea behind autonomous driving is to remove the fallibility of humans for control of the vehicle and replace it with a suite of sensors and artificial intelligence. Yet computers and software are not infallible, nor are sensors. Anyone who works in the technology field knows this. So like I said, under the same conditions I don't think computer controlled driver automation will cut the traffic death rate in half. What will happen is the personal responsibility aspect of the act of driving is left to a machine that has no sense of personal responsibility. It then becomes a cluster-F.
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      04-21-2021, 09:17 AM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by unluky View Post
As did you in return........
But I offered the opinion...
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      04-21-2021, 03:14 PM   #84
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Originally Posted by Efthreeoh View Post
The problem with deaths related to traffic accidents is mostly the fault of one or both of the driver's involved. Most accidents are the result of either lack of proper training/talent, or lack of attention or sometimes both. We as a society do a terrible job at driver training and let even the most untalented people have licenses to drive. Granted, some small percentage are the result of poor road design, or poor road maintenance, but the vast majority of accidents are caused by driver error.

But ultimately preventing traffic accident deaths is the personal responsibility of each driver. Regardless of road design or condition, it is the driver's responsibility to prevent his car for being in the same space of another vehicle at the same time.

The idea behind autonomous driving is to remove the fallibility of humans for control of the vehicle and replace it with a suite of sensors and artificial intelligence. Yet computers and software are not infallible, nor are sensors. Anyone who works in the technology field knows this. So like I said, under the same conditions I don't think computer controlled driver automation will cut the traffic death rate in half. What will happen is the personal responsibility aspect of the act of driving is left to a machine that has no sense of personal responsibility. It then becomes a cluster-F.
We will have to agree to disagree. Cars don't facebook while they drive. Cars don't text while they drive. Cars don't gawk at other car wrecks when they drive. Cars know to slow down for certain conditions. Humans are stupid idiots. "To err is human" is perfectly put. The only way we learn is to F up - and usually we have to do it many times before we learn too.

You are right - we don't do it right - but we never have and I don't see how you could think that is getting better. What we are doing better is making cars that help us survive it better - because we know humans are too stupid to just stop having wrecks. Car wrecks that killed people 40 years ago - people walk away from today. Amazingly so.

I for one thing self driving cars will be safer that human driven cars someday in my lifetime. Planes can land by computers today, so I don't see a huge leap from that. Only one way to find out....... =)
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      04-21-2021, 04:53 PM   #85
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Originally Posted by jmack View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Bread View Post
My take away here is that lawyers made the world a sadder place. Coffee should be hot, jerks.
Nah coffee should be served at 150-160F and that's on the hot side of actually being able to taste it.
Nancy. I brew at 205 into a preheated cup and drink it once the pour over is done dripping.
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      04-21-2021, 04:56 PM   #86
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eventually cars will improve to be better drivers than humans. and traffic deaths will be extremely low. this is very far away though. for it to work EVERYONE needs to be on autopilot on the same system.. all cars communicating together like an ant colony.

as long as there is the human variable on the road things will be difficult. we as humans can read other humans behavior and make good guesses as to who is paying attention on the road and who isn't. dipping off the shoulder multiple times on the highway or drifting into others lanes. speeding up and slowing down. small things like this can make us think.. ok better keep distance from that guy or get around him quickly.

another scenario: imagine a speeding car cuts you off in traffic but leaves a 1 foot gap with your bumper.. now your autopilot freaks out and hits the brakes... and now you just got rear ended by the semi truck behind you.

Or what if a deer and child both run out into the road in front of you, the computer has to decide who to hit in a split second. what about a decision between a basketball, curb, and a rabbit (obviously you hit the soft rabbit) but maybe some peta activist would rather hit the basketball.

it all gets very confusing. it'll eventually happen though because people want safety over freedom.
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      04-21-2021, 05:47 PM   #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murf993 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ///MPhatic View Post
People are being people, taking things too far. This wasn't a Tesla error, it was a human error.

I hate the fact that fully automated car software is in that bad-haircut stage, but it's just something that has to be gone through.
A simple tweek, such as a sensor in the drivers seat like front passenger airbags would at least force people to sit behind the wheel.

I for one have zero interest in ever owing anything like this, I think we are becoming way to dependant on technology and losing our common sense because of it.
Well said Murf993 !
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      04-23-2021, 08:44 AM   #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
eventually cars will improve to be better drivers than humans. and traffic deaths will be extremely low. this is very far away though. for it to work EVERYONE needs to be on autopilot on the same system.. all cars communicating together like an ant colony.

as long as there is the human variable on the road things will be difficult. we as humans can read other humans behavior and make good guesses as to who is paying attention on the road and who isn't. dipping off the shoulder multiple times on the highway or drifting into others lanes. speeding up and slowing down. small things like this can make us think.. ok better keep distance from that guy or get around him quickly.

another scenario: imagine a speeding car cuts you off in traffic but leaves a 1 foot gap with your bumper.. now your autopilot freaks out and hits the brakes... and now you just got rear ended by the semi truck behind you.

Or what if a deer and child both run out into the road in front of you, the computer has to decide who to hit in a split second. what about a decision between a basketball, curb, and a rabbit (obviously you hit the soft rabbit) but maybe some peta activist would rather hit the basketball.

it all gets very confusing. it'll eventually happen though because people want safety over freedom.
Freedom is the ultimate safety.
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