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      10-11-2019, 10:38 AM   #1
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Car and Driver: LIGHTNING LAP 2019

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ning-lap-2019/

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

Some surprises this year with how quick some cars were.
Senna of course is king.

GT3RS is now quicker than the 918!!!
M2C cut 2.2 seconds off the last M2 tested.

Enjoy
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      10-11-2019, 11:51 AM   #2
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The genesis was a bit of a surprise, otherwise, no big surprises IMO. ZL1 1LE is still a monster of a car. I can only guess what a superior chassis C8 Z06 is going to be like...
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      10-11-2019, 11:52 AM   #3
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It has to be stated that the M2C has a DCT while the 2016 M2 they used was a manual. I'm not saying the M2C isn't an outright faster car around the track than the OG M2 but the DCT is padding that time a little bit.
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      10-11-2019, 12:41 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heavyD^2 View Post
It has to be stated that the M2C has a DCT while the 2016 M2 they used was a manual. I'm not saying the M2C isn't an outright faster car around the track than the OG M2 but the DCT is padding that time a little bit.
It also has to be stated that there are multiple drivers of varying skill levels for the vehicles so all the results should be taken with a grain of salt, fun event anyway though.
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      10-11-2019, 12:49 PM   #5
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M2c > supra for the same money. wish they would have had a model 3p there.
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      10-11-2019, 01:43 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
M2c > supra for the same money. wish they would have had a model 3p there.
I'm sure they'll have a Model 3P there next year. This test is actually conducted in the early spring.
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      10-11-2019, 02:56 PM   #7
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Humdizzle View Post
M2c > supra for the same money. wish they would have had a model 3p there.
I'm sure they'll have a Model 3P there next year. This test is actually conducted in the early spring.
They just bought a Model 3 for their Long-Term Test, although I'm not sure if its a Performance or Long Range trim, but they'll likely use their own vehicle for the lightening lap next year (like they did with their 2016 Model S). I don't think Tesla likes loaning vehicles to C/D, but you never know.
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      10-11-2019, 03:13 PM   #8
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Other than the 600LT and the Senna, the rest of the field is somewhat meh...
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      10-11-2019, 04:07 PM   #9
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wow M5 comp is that much faster than M2 comp, surprised given the weight on M5C
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      10-11-2019, 09:13 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
Other than the 600LT and the Senna, the rest of the field is somewhat meh...
Camaro ZL1 1LE within 2.4sec of a 600LT is crazy. That thing walks all BMW’s.
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      10-11-2019, 11:52 PM   #11
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Camaro ZL1 1LE within 2.4sec of a 600LT is crazy. That thing walks all BMW’s.
In term of performance sure but here's the problem. A typical Camaro buyer won't be able to afford a 75K car. Those buyers who can afford a 75K car probably will go for the C8. Most buyers probably buy only them purely for track usage and that's why it will have only limited appeal. Camaro tends to outperform Mustang but Mustangs usually outsell Camaros.
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      10-12-2019, 12:48 AM   #12
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Camaro was nice as was the Camry. Wish they put some real tires in her. Maybe give that NSX a run. Funny how easy cars are to drive fast now.
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      10-12-2019, 02:35 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
In term of performance sure but here's the problem. A typical Camaro buyer won't be able to afford a 75K car. Those buyers who can afford a 75K car probably will go for the C8. Most buyers probably buy only them purely for track usage and that's why it will have only limited appeal. Camaro tends to outperform Mustang but Mustangs usually outsell Camaros.
I considered many 75K cars, but none could hold a candle even to the 2SS 1LE performance wise or in terms of the visceral experience. I deemed the ZL1 too much for our roads. The ZL1 doesn't give up much to the ZL1 1LE. The SS 1LE and regular ZL1 still punch way above their class and are far better daily driver cars than a GT3 RS or McLaren. Unlike the old Z/28, these are loaded with all the modern conveniences and nice interior features.

The mustangs haven't been serious about performance, except for the GT350 versions and finally the PP2. You can just look at how long it took them to spec proper tires on the thing. It's been a tough spot for Ford, with the SS 1LE beating the GT350 around a track and damn close to the R version, Ford would have had to undersell the GT350s, which they finally have with the PP2, but it's taken a while and they likely were in no hurry, because it would mean the end of the GT350. The GT350 was supposed to be their ZL1-class car, the race car beyond the regular mustang, but being in-between camaro generations, it gave Chevy the ability to easily best it. It seems like with the ZL1 1LE, Chevy was aiming for the Ford GT, but it keeps up with GT3s just fine too. If they didn't match the Ford, they got real, real close, for an insane fraction of the price. It's like Ford is out of sync and stuck in a reactionary position. Sure, they are coming out with their heavy 700+ HP mustang now, but Chevy already has the C7 ZR-1 and they are starting the game over with the C8.

If you are going to track it, you better have several thousands of dollars for tires, brakes and the miscellaneous costs
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      10-12-2019, 03:02 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
I considered many 75K cars, but none could hold a candle even to the 2SS 1LE performance wise or in terms of the visceral experience. I deemed the ZL1 too much for our roads. The ZL1 doesn't give up much to the ZL1 1LE. The SS 1LE and regular ZL1 still punch way above their class and are far better daily driver cars than a GT3 RS or McLaren. Unlike the old Z/28, these are loaded with all the modern conveniences and nice interior features.

The mustangs haven't been serious about performance, except for the GT350 versions and finally the PP2. You can just look at how long it took them to spec proper tires on the thing. It's been a tough spot for Ford, with the SS 1LE beating the GT350 around a track and damn close to the R version, Ford would have had to undersell the GT350s, which they finally have with the PP2, but it's taken a while and they likely were in no hurry, because it would mean the end of the GT350. The GT350 was supposed to be their ZL1-class car, the race car beyond the regular mustang, but being in-between camaro generations, it gave Chevy the ability to easily best it. It seems like with the ZL1 1LE, Chevy was aiming for the Ford GT, but it keeps up with GT3s just fine too. If they didn't match the Ford, they got real, real close, for an insane fraction of the price. It's like Ford is out of sync and stuck in a reactionary position. Sure, they are coming out with their heavy 700+ HP mustang now, but Chevy already has the C7 ZR-1 and they are starting the game over with the C8.

If you are going to track it, you better have several thousands of dollars for tires, brakes and the miscellaneous costs
Just because you may be considering the said Camaro, doesn't mean most people will. OK, why is it not selling well? Like I said, most people buy a car based on several factors, not just performance. That's why Mustang has been outselling Camaros.

If you're going to buy the Camaro, be my guess. What does it have to do with what I said anyway.

Quote:
The SS 1LE and regular ZL1 still punch way above their class and are far better daily driver cars than a GT3 RS or McLaren. Unlike the old Z/28, these are loaded with all the modern conveniences and nice interior features.
It always makes me laugh whenever Camaro fanbois trying to bring this up as if the McLaren and GT3 people are cross shopping with them. Like it really matters.
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      10-12-2019, 11:45 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
Just because you may be considering the said Camaro, doesn't mean most people will. OK, why is it not selling well? Like I said, most people buy a car based on several factors, not just performance. That's why Mustang has been outselling Camaros.
Mustang is cheaper, they actually advertise it, it has better ergonomics for visibility. If we were to judge all cars by the same metrics, most of the hypercar/exotics wouldn't even exist, as you could never deal with an aston-martin rear window, but I digress. Most people don't care about performance, they just want to be seen driving a Mustang or Camaro, so they'll buy versions that have skinny tires and drive-trains that aren't intended to be the pedigree of the brand. If you look at the numbers, even for a 3 series, the people buying the "watered down" versions hugely outsell the performance versions, so people don't buy BMWs for performance either.

Ultimately you are right, it's about selling cars. That's why my hat is off to Chevy for focusing on performance vehicles for enthusiasts, over the last 10-15 years it's been the best of times, with the CTS/ATS-V, Z06s, ZR1s, SS, ZL1s, 1LE versions. Ford has simply chosen to not compete in many of these segments.
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      10-12-2019, 11:52 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WestRace View Post
It always makes me laugh whenever Camaro fanbois trying to bring this up as if the McLaren and GT3 people are cross shopping with them. Like it really matters.
Not cross shopping but rather buying them as additions. Over on Rennlist there is a couple long threads about the ZL1 1LE. Actually more praise than I would have expected, a few members have one in their stable as a track car along side their P-cars(which include GT3’s). I see them all the time at my track days, they are beasts.
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      10-12-2019, 12:15 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M3_WC View Post
Not cross shopping but rather buying them as additions. Over on Rennlist there is a couple long threads about the ZL1 1LE. Actually more praise than I would have expected, a few members have one in their stable as a track car along side their P-cars(which include GT3s). I see them all the time at my track days, they are beasts.
Plus the fact that running costs are MUCH higher with the GT3/RS than the ZL1 1LE.

Today, it does seem that the all-out performance cars that are priced in the $50-$75K range are a tough sell. As others have pointed out, many of the new 3-series are not the performance versions, but 320 or 330i.
We should all be grateful for the stellar options we have and that they're even being offered as we know making money is the manufacturers first priority.

Back on topic: Lightning Lap keeps getting better and better every year. We can see the development of each vehicle as the years go by. Who would have thought that an NA, 500hp GT3RS would be quicker around a track than a 918 with almost twice the HP?!?! Hats off to all.
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      10-12-2019, 02:27 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesNoBrakes View Post
Mustang is cheaper, they actually advertise it, it has better ergonomics for visibility. If we were to judge all cars by the same metrics, most of the hypercar/exotics wouldn't even exist, as you could never deal with an aston-martin rear window, but I digress. Most people don't care about performance, they just want to be seen driving a Mustang or Camaro, so they'll buy versions that have skinny tires and drive-trains that aren't intended to be the pedigree of the brand. If you look at the numbers, even for a 3 series, the people buying the "watered down" versions hugely outsell the performance versions, so people don't buy BMWs for performance either.

Ultimately you are right, it's about selling cars. That's why my hat is off to Chevy for focusing on performance vehicles for enthusiasts, over the last 10-15 years it's been the best of times, with the CTS/ATS-V, Z06s, ZR1s, SS, ZL1s, 1LE versions. Ford has simply chosen to not compete in many of these segments.
I would suggest you go buy the said Camaro and stop replying to my post. It's irrelevant what's your personal preferences are. No need to justify your subjective opinions to me.
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      10-12-2019, 02:29 PM   #19
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I see them all the time at my track days, they are beasts.
Yes they are beasts. I am sure that's why people bought them. They like beasts :-)
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      10-12-2019, 07:47 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TSM330i View Post
https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...ning-lap-2019/

https://www.caranddriver.com/feature...storical-data/

Some surprises this year with how quick some cars were.
Senna of course is king.

GT3RS is now quicker than the 918!!!
M2C cut 2.2 seconds off the last M2 tested.

Enjoy
And the M2c got around quicker than the 718s from a year ago, not bad concidering the weight, where the weight is and the usability of an m2
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      10-13-2019, 05:47 PM   #21
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I agree on the ZL1 1LE. It's an absolute monster. If/when BMW ever makes something that quick, they'll most likely charge twice the money.

My most impressive outing was the Urus though. Incredible.
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      10-13-2019, 06:40 PM   #22
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Quote:
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And the M2c got around quicker than the 718s from a year ago, not bad concidering the weight, where the weight is and the usability of an m2
?

72 718 Cayman S: 2:58.3
85 BMW M2 Competition: 2:59.7

Unless my math is wrong, lower number is quicker?
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