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      09-13-2017, 04:52 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by OlBloo View Post
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
It was $400m of their money that we froze in our banks, in the late 1970's. They held (and abused) 150 Americans for 1.5 years, and trashed/confiscated our embassy. For that, I would consider the $400M our money - as compensation for the embassy, and each hostage should have received $1-3M.

Instead, Obama gave them the $4M, plus interest since the 1970's. He also paid them in small denomination foreign currency - which is a clear violation of numerous laws.

Never forget the Iranian hostage-taking either, nor Obama's criminal idiocy.

I agree with you about Saudi and UAE. We don't, however, need their oil - we have plenty of our own, except the environmental lobby has stupidly blocked its drilling.
If that's the case then how much would we owe them for overthrowing their government? The US has and continues to do some very illegal things and there is never an excuse for it regardless of leadership. But to steal that money would do us no good. We can go on all day about this, but the fact is it was their money and used as leverage for the nuclear deal. Something that is actually good

We only receive a fraction of our oil supply but their ability to drastically affect the price of oil is their source of power. The US will be fine with their cuts in oil, but our European allies won't.

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Originally Posted by Lups View Post
No.

Right now this is living history at it's best. Right now is the time to think what led to us to this path, and how to move forward. How will our kids see our actions?
Hopefully by the time my generation starts trickling into higher leadership positions, hopefully not hypocrites and morons. But I'm sure we will be. Humans are too irrational
I don't recall that we "overthrew their government?" What?

The nuclear deal was an absolute sham for the US - Obama gave it away, to a terrorist nation, of all things.

Let's hope your generation won't elect morons. But in all honesty, they're not off to a good start - lol
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      09-14-2017, 12:34 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I don't recall that we "overthrew their government?" What?

The nuclear deal was an absolute sham for the US - Obama gave it away, to a terrorist nation, of all things.

Let's hope your generation won't elect morons. But in all honesty, they're not off to a good start - lol
1953 assisted coup, which led to the Iran we know today
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/20/...an-tehran-oil/

How is it a sham?
In terms of long term strategy, removing sanctions and opening access to the western worlds ways will lead to an improved economy and more liberal influences. To continue to closing Iranian citizens off from the world plays into the hands of the Republican Guard and hard line clerics. If you haven't been following Iranian politics they've democratically elected a leader who has been pushing very hard to liberalize the country, with his main obstacles being the clerics and military.

And by judging history, do you think continued sanctions will lead to a denuclearized state? The opposite consistently happens over and over again while the government becomes more violent and unpredictable.

And yes, they support terrorists. But so does every country in the world, especially the US. The kettle calling the pot black
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      09-14-2017, 04:03 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlBloo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
I don't recall that we "overthrew their government?" What?

The nuclear deal was an absolute sham for the US - Obama gave it away, to a terrorist nation, of all things.

Let's hope your generation won't elect morons. But in all honesty, they're not off to a good start - lol
1953 assisted coup, which led to the Iran we know today
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/20/...an-tehran-oil/

How is it a sham?
In terms of long term strategy, removing sanctions and opening access to the western worlds ways will lead to an improved economy and more liberal influences. To continue to closing Iranian citizens off from the world plays into the hands of the Republican Guard and hard line clerics. If you haven't been following Iranian politics they've democratically elected a leader who has been pushing very hard to liberalize the country, with his main obstacles being the clerics and military.

And by judging history, do you think continued sanctions will lead to a denuclearized state? The opposite consistently happens over and over again while the government becomes more violent and unpredictable.

And yes, they support terrorists. But so does every country in the world, especially the US. The kettle calling the pot black
Your link needs a subscription. But IIRC, the "coup" was a failure, and the role of the US was to prevent communist takeover (which happened). Also, the Iranian religious leaders wanted him out most of all, and he cancelled parliamentary elections when his popularity tanked.

It's a sham because:

1. Giving them money, with interest, to a terrorist sponsoring nation is a sham,

2. We owed them nothing,

3. We have no role in the nuclear inspections or sanctions - they can still do as they please.

Not sure why you think America supports terrorism?
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      09-14-2017, 04:08 PM   #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlBloo View Post
1953 assisted coup, which led to the Iran we know today
http://foreignpolicy.com/2017/06/20/...an-tehran-oil/

How is it a sham?
In terms of long term strategy, removing sanctions and opening access to the western worlds ways will lead to an improved economy and more liberal influences. To continue to closing Iranian citizens off from the world plays into the hands of the Republican Guard and hard line clerics. If you haven't been following Iranian politics they've democratically elected a leader who has been pushing very hard to liberalize the country, with his main obstacles being the clerics and military.

And by judging history, do you think continued sanctions will lead to a denuclearized state? The opposite consistently happens over and over again while the government becomes more violent and unpredictable.

And yes, they support terrorists. But so does every country in the world, especially the US. The kettle calling the pot black
No.
Your moral equivalence is misplaced. We (the US) are nothing like Iran.
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      09-14-2017, 06:34 PM   #27
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Your link needs a subscription. But IIRC, the "coup" was a failure, and the role of the US was to prevent communist takeover (which happened). Also, the Iranian religious leaders wanted him out most of all, and he cancelled parliamentary elections when his popularity tanked.

It's a sham because:

1. Giving them money, with interest, to a terrorist sponsoring nation is a sham,

2. We owed them nothing,

3. We have no role in the nuclear inspections or sanctions - they can still do as they please.

Not sure why you think America supports terrorism?
You should be able to x out the subscription popup. The CIA declassified a thousand pages worth of documents explaining what they did and why it was done. Yes you are correct that there was an attempt to install communism, however ideology was and is a tool to cover true intentions(Pick a war, ideology is to gain public support). The intention for this case being the prevention of the oil nationalization which previously happened in Saudi Arabia. Again info directly from the CIA.

I don't know I can get it through to you that that money was being held in a specific account for decades. That money was meant to buy weapons from the US, then relations soured more. If we kept that money, we would be thieves. Do you morally condone theft? As the leader of the world, that would be look.

The Iranians are going to do as they please, period. As does any soveriegn nation. Do you expect them just to give up? You're living in a fairy tale if you think so. At least with this you can bring them to the table and get something you want. Do we really wan't more countries acting like North Korea. It boggles my mind that we Americans expect to have everything our way. You have to give something to get. We can't fight the whole world

The US has supported terrorists for a long time. Go back in history to central and south America. Or in Syria. We're purposefully flooding Syria with Russian weapons which are falling into the hands of Al Qaeda variants. From our actions, I honestly think we are trying to make this situation into another 1980s Afghanistan for Russia. Oh yeah, we support Saudi Arabia.

I love this country, but we are by no means saints. And the majority off problems we have are becuase of our own actions

Last edited by OlBloo; 09-14-2017 at 06:42 PM..
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      09-15-2017, 12:04 AM   #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlBloo View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Your link needs a subscription. But IIRC, the "coup" was a failure, and the role of the US was to prevent communist takeover (which happened). Also, the Iranian religious leaders wanted him out most of all, and he cancelled parliamentary elections when his popularity tanked.

It's a sham because:

1. Giving them money, with interest, to a terrorist sponsoring nation is a sham,

2. We owed them nothing,

3. We have no role in the nuclear inspections or sanctions - they can still do as they please.

Not sure why you think America supports terrorism?
You should be able to x out the subscription popup. The CIA declassified a thousand pages worth of documents explaining what they did and why it was done. Yes you are correct that there was an attempt to install communism, however ideology was and is a tool to cover true intentions(Pick a war, ideology is to gain public support). The intention for this case being the prevention of the oil nationalization which previously happened in Saudi Arabia. Again info directly from the CIA.

I don't know I can get it through to you that that money was being held in a specific account for decades. That money was meant to buy weapons from the US, then relations soured more. If we kept that money, we would be thieves. Do you morally condone theft? As the leader of the world, that would be look.

The Iranians are going to do as they please, period. As does any soveriegn nation. Do you expect them just to give up? You're living in a fairy tale if you think so. At least with this you can bring them to the table and get something you want. Do we really wan't more countries acting like North Korea. It boggles my mind that we Americans expect to have everything our way. You have to give something to get. We can't fight the whole world

The US has supported terrorists for a long time. Go back in history to central and south America. Or in Syria. We're purposefully flooding Syria with Russian weapons which are falling into the hands of Al Qaeda variants. From our actions, I honestly think we are trying to make this situation into another 1980s Afghanistan for Russia. Oh yeah, we support Saudi Arabia.

I love this country, but we are by no means saints. And the majority off problems we have are becuase of our own actions
It wouldn't be theft whatsoever - it would be reparations.

"Bring the Iranians to the table" - are you kidding? They have no intention whatsoever of coming to the table - and have made that very clear.

We are "flooding Syria with Russian weapons?" What?

We are the most saintly country on earth - find one better.
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      09-15-2017, 02:23 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
We are the most saintly country on earth - find one better.
Canada. /thread

-Mark
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      09-15-2017, 04:52 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jgoens View Post
I don't think that is necessarily true--what we have is a generation of adults now who were not really here when it happened. Those of us who were adults at the time will never forget. It is kind of like Pearl Harbor--most of us only know about it from pictures and history books so it does not seem as real. Of course as time goes by any event becomes a more distant memory.
Doesn't help either that we have a generation of adults who are selfish and care only of themselves. A generation where everything is expected to be handed to them with minimal effort put in. Its a soft and easily impressionable generation. How do I know this? Because I train this generation in preparation of future wars and I am sadly disappointed with what I see. A generation that has no regard for morals, ethics, or values. Our nation is in a lot of trouble.

I know why I stand for the flag. I know why every year I have a moment of silence. I know what I fought for in Iraq and Afghanistan, I just hope the American people do not forget or diminish the importance of this day. and ultimately, I hope we as a nation do not get so complacent that history repeats itself as we focus on tearing ourselves apart trying to overthrow our own government.
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      09-15-2017, 06:49 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
It wouldn't be theft whatsoever - it would be reparations.

"Bring the Iranians to the table" - are you kidding? They have no intention whatsoever of coming to the table - and have made that very clear.

We are "flooding Syria with Russian weapons?" What?

We are the most saintly country on earth - find one better.
Call it what you want.....

The Pentagon has spent over 2 billion dollars in arming rebel fighters. And just like during the war in Iraq, we have no accountabilty, therefore allowing the same weapons to be used against American Soldiers in future battles and wars

https://www.balkaninsight.com/en/art...ria-09-12-2017

Even the Trump administration has acknowledged that the Iranians are complying with the deal and have recertified it!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/17/u...recertify.html


Most badass? Fuck yeah!
Saintly? Lolololollo o lollolooloolo
Na brah.
And I'm not saying we even need to be saints. Just smarter about looking into the effects of our actions

This took a 180 degree turn lol
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      09-15-2017, 06:53 AM   #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlBloo View Post
Call it what you want.....

The Pentagon has spent over 2 billion dollars in arming rebel fighters. And just like during the war in Iraq, we have no accountabilty, therefore allowing the same weapons to be used against American Soldiers in future battles and wars

https://www.balkaninsight.com/en/art...ria-09-12-2017

Even the Trump administration has acknowledged that the Iranians are complying with the deal and have recertified it!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/17/u...recertify.html


Most badass? Fuck yeah!
Saintly? Lolololollo o lollolooloolo
Na brah.
And I'm not saying we even need to be saints. Just smarter about looking into the effects of our actions
This is very well said.

The last paragraph should be the foreign policy motto of every country.
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      09-15-2017, 07:01 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by zx10guy View Post
I've said this before on other anniversaries of 9/11. This trend was already happening where not much attention is being paid on what happened on this day. Just go to Ground Zero on any given day. The way people carry on laughing/taking selfies is appalling on what amounts to a grave site for over 2000 people who have died.
And what further? This was an event of the present days and most people surely remind the horrible scenes as the planes crashed into the towers and they collapsed later and burried an enormous amount of people.
I think the thoughts of making a "real" anniversery day of it are dont meet the more modern way of remembering.
For the real patriots of course this was an attack direct into their heart but is this then also necessarily to be the opinion of the rest of your citizens?
Go from today 10 years further and ask the children what happened 9/11.
For me a correct answer would meet my expectation as my son/daughter would say "Some idiots had attacked the US and a lot of good people had to die".
Thats enough, no annual celebrations necessary. But this is of course the maybe too small sight of a foreigner.
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      09-15-2017, 09:01 AM   #34
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I think it is also very different for people who were there when it happened. I've lived in CT my whole life, what I know about 9/11 is from what I saw on TV, what I've read about it, visiting NYC afterward, etc. A good friend of mine was living in NYC when it happened, and has a very different perspective. He remembers the chaos, the people running and yelling, the smell of burning debris that lasted for months. That kind of stuff stays with you.
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      09-15-2017, 09:58 AM   #35
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
We are the most saintly country on earth - find one better.
Canada. /thread

-Mark
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      09-16-2017, 08:46 AM   #36
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Nope. No free speech.
Uhh, what? The art of the demonstration and protest is well alive here. I mean we haven't had a KKK Rally anytime recently but other than that...

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      09-16-2017, 11:26 AM   #37
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Not sure why you think America supports terrorism?
One word NORAID
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      09-16-2017, 03:54 PM   #38
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Not sure why you think America supports terrorism?
One word NORAID
Was that sponsored by the US government? I think it was just Irish Americans - another reason we shouldn't allow immigration...
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      09-16-2017, 04:10 PM   #39
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Was that sponsored by the US government? I think it was just Irish Americans - another reason we shouldn't allow immigration...
Mostly correct but as I understand it local government from some American states/governors encouraged fund raising. Which ever way you play it American dollars were responsible for the loss of many English lives.
After the loss of the trade towers American funding for the IRA dried up, which left the IRA with little choice other than getting on board with the 'peace process'.
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      09-16-2017, 04:32 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbbbmw View Post
Was that sponsored by the US government? I think it was just Irish Americans - another reason we shouldn't allow immigration...
Mostly correct but as I understand it local government from some American states/governors encouraged fund raising. Which ever way you play it American dollars were responsible for the loss of many English lives.
After the loss of the trade towers American funding for the IRA dried up, which left the IRA with little choice other than getting on board with the 'peace process'.
I don't recall any American governors supporting it, but perhaps I missed it? I believe the vast majority came from Massachusetts, given their substantial Irish American population. But again, it wasn't the US government- just successful Irish Americans.

Also, I think the money flow dried up well before the twin towers 9/11.

And it was reprehensible on the part of those individuals.
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I didn't want to watch anything this year. I did last year (pretty much every year) and was so angry and sad from what happened that day. I mean more so than at any other time considering this was 15 years ago then. Still unbelievable to me it happened...always will. They should have rebuilt them.

I don't know if y'all have seen the move The Walk with Joseph Gordon-Levitt, but there's a scene at the end of the movie that's a tribute to the towers. Even seeing that is pretty painful. They just look so gorgeous and with the music...so well done. I recommend all to see it.
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      09-11-2019, 09:43 AM   #42
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Any thoughts for today?
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      09-11-2019, 10:32 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OlBloo View Post
Call it what you want.....

The Pentagon has spent over 2 billion dollars in arming rebel fighters. And just like during the war in Iraq, we have no accountabilty, therefore allowing the same weapons to be used against American Soldiers in future battles and wars

https://www.balkaninsight.com/en/art...ria-09-12-2017

Even the Trump administration has acknowledged that the Iranians are complying with the deal and have recertified it!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/07/17/u...recertify.html


Most badass? Fuck yeah!
Saintly? Lolololollo o lollolooloolo
Na brah.
And I'm not saying we even need to be saints. Just smarter about looking into the effects of our actions

This took a 180 degree turn lol

Curious - how many times have you been to Iran?

I spent many of my younger years working for the U.S. Government overseas in many countries that are not exactly known as quality vacation spots.

I can tell you, from personal experience, that many of your comments in this thread are either (a) misguided or (b) downright wrong.

Don't trust everything you read and you should really research and understand more about the United States, Iran, and other countries that harbor and support terrorism around the world before making some of the statements you have.

Trust me - from direct experience - most of what you have said is incorrect.

Regards.
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      09-11-2019, 10:34 AM   #44
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Any thoughts for today?
I think it's so sad that some people are moving past recognition of today. I had to send two of my employees out of town for a customer meeting. Really? Today? There was no other day available? It's callous and disrespectful. Especially being from the NYC area, it touched so many of us first hand.

May they all rest in peace.
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