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BIMMERPOST Universal Forums Off-Topic Discussions Board Politics/Religion Do Christians drive BMWs? (Another way of asking Are you...?)

View Poll Results: Do Christians drive BMWs? (Another way of asking Are you...?)
Yes, I am Christian. 151 55.31%
No, I am not Christian. 79 28.94%
I don't know if I am a Christian. 5 1.83%
What is a Christian? 15 5.49%
I was a Christian, but not anymore. 23 8.42%
I would like to be a Christian. 0 0%
Voters: 273. You may not vote on this poll

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      12-29-2007, 05:00 PM   #155
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
floridaboy,

Again your logic is childish and laughable.

Explanation: You quote a retired physicist holding a degree with high honors in physics and distinction in mathematics from San Diego State University, and 30 years on the staff of SRI International (formerly Stanford Research Institute), in Menlo Park, California.

What does that prove? He is not providing any testable hypothesis, he is making conclusion based on the old fallacy known as the divine fallacy: We don’t know exactly how it works, lets call it god and we’re done.

Why would we listen to him and not incredible number of other scientists that are explaining natural world with evidence and countless experiments.
Okay smart guy, where are they? Where is the incredible number of other scientists that are explaining HOW ATOMS ARE HELD TOGETHER with evidence and countless experiments? How about you start putting up something here other than your "childish and laughable" opinion, and it better not be some cop out like "THE STRONG FORCE!"
Put up or shut up!
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      12-29-2007, 06:16 PM   #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FloridaBoy View Post
Okay smart guy, where are they? Where is the incredible number of other scientists that are explaining HOW ATOMS ARE HELD TOGETHER with evidence and countless experiments? How about you start putting up something here other than your "childish and laughable" opinion, and it better not be some cop out like "THE STRONG FORCE!"
Put up or shut up!
OK, pay attention. Lets get ADHD under control here!!!

NOT being able to explain how things work DOES NOT PROVE GODíS EXISTANCE!!!

Cant you grasp this simple concept??? Why do you assume that everything must be explainable TODAY???
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      12-29-2007, 06:44 PM   #157
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You know I use to be the same way as you, always wanted an answer for everything. I've always believed there's got to be a scientific explaination if not now eventually would be found. A theory until proven wrong. Every little word in the bible I would try to figure the true meaning, and reverse try to prove it wrong with science. Then one day I asked myself "why am I trying so hard to prove the bible is wrong?" Maybe you should ask yourself that, what is your purpose? It's a really simple question, an I pray you do find the answer from the "word".
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      12-29-2007, 06:53 PM   #158
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnymu View Post
You know I use to be the same way as you, always wanted an answer for everything. I've always believed there's got to be a scientific explaination if not now eventually would be found. A theory until proven wrong. Every little word in the bible I would try to figure the true meaning, and reverse try to prove it wrong with science. Then one day I asked myself "why am I trying so hard to prove the bible is wrong?" Maybe you should ask yourself that, what is your purpose? It's a really simple question, an I pray you do find the answer from the "word".
Ah, why are we trying to prove so hard that W was wrong about the WMD...shit happens...

The bible was written by humans. At the time it was written not much else (like craziness in today's world) was happening, therefore...

However, the fact that it is written by people does not negate the existence of God, but definitely proves nothing! Simple as that.

We can't even prove (yet) how the pyramids have been built 3500 years ago, so proving the creation of the world will take much longer... Maybe Gods help build pyramids?
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      12-29-2007, 07:04 PM   #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnymu View Post
You know I use to be the same way as you, always wanted an answer for everything. I've always believed there's got to be a scientific explaination if not now eventually would be found. A theory until proven wrong. Every little word in the bible I would try to figure the true meaning, and reverse try to prove it wrong with science. Then one day I asked myself "why am I trying so hard to prove the bible is wrong?" Maybe you should ask yourself that, what is your purpose? It's a really simple question, an I pray you do find the answer from the "word".
The purpose is search for truth. The only proven method to get to the bottom of how universe around us works is the scientific one. Itís the best we got today. And science has been wrong many times. And thatís the beauty of it. Itís a self correcting machinery.

I appreciate your concern, however, I advise that you ask yourself more challenging questions and think freely and critically.

See, first the bible has to be proven right, and then we'll try to prove it wrong.
This applies to all scientific research. A testable hypothesis will become a theory only after merciless review, great scrutiny and tons of repeatable experiments and physical evidence.

Then, and only then it becomes worthy of disproving. Otherwise we could have mental patients claiming that they believe in flying spaghetti monster. Iím not going to waste my time with them until they provide evidence. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

By challenging religious people on this forum Iím trying to find an answer to very important questions. Where is the need to believe in fairytales coming from? Why are people scared into religion? Why the religious hypocrisy (ďwe obey things that suit us, but when it comes to money, property, where does Jesus in you vanish? Would Jesus drive a BMW?) Why is the Vatican enormously wealthy and children are dying of hunger? Why after priests raped young boys people still go to church? Why the jihad?

I honestly donít see the difference between bible and Lord of the rings, or Harry Potter.
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      12-29-2007, 07:33 PM   #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
OK, pay attention. Lets get ADHD under control here!!!

NOT being able to explain how things work DOES NOT PROVE GODíS EXISTANCE!!!

Cant you grasp this simple concept??? Why do you assume that everything must be explainable TODAY???
Still waiting for the incredible number!
MORE HOT AIR!
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      12-29-2007, 07:38 PM   #161
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But all the question you ask not everyone has the answer like you said. I will not debate wits with you or others cause I don't think of myself as more intelligent. I will not concern or waste my time trying to solve scientific questions cause I seriously dont believe I can. Does that make me lazy? I just feel my purpose in life is to serve a different purpose. I mean you could go throughout your living life trying to solve every puzzle you can imagine and i'm not going to stop you. More power to you, cause such motivation can easily side tracked.
Your example such as money, properites and jesus vanishing is basically using religion as a scapegoat. Doesn't mean everyone follows this trend, in fact the Bible tells us what should and not to do in such situation. One just interpret in the way they want to read it. The bible actually tells us not to get into such arguements like this, cause truthfully we don't know everything. Only that can happen is frustration and perhaps corruption of what we originally thought.
You mention the Bible must be proven wrong before proven right but if you actually read the prophesy it's actually pretty accurate.
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      12-30-2007, 10:17 AM   #162
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Floridaboy, you must pace yourself and read carefully what I write:

Why would we listen to him and not incredible number of other scientists that are explaining natural world with evidence and countless experiments.

Then you ask:

Where is the incredible number of other scientists that are explaining HOW ATOMS ARE HELD TOGETHER with evidence and countless experiments?

I FEEL THE NEED TO CAPITALIZE THE FOLLOWING STATEMENT AS IT WILL INCREASE THE ODDS OF YOU ACTUALLY UNDERSTANDING IT:

NOT EVERYTHING IS KNOWN AND EXPLAINED TODAY. THAT STILL DOES NOT PROVE THAT THERE IS GOD, AND DOES NOT PROVE THAT AN AMBIGUOUS BOOK IS TRUE.

AND BTW, ATOMS ARE HELD TOGETHER BY CHEMICAL BONDSÖ.
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      12-30-2007, 10:19 AM   #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnymu View Post
But all the question you ask not everyone has the answer like you said. I will not debate wits with you or others cause I don't think of myself as more intelligent. I will not concern or waste my time trying to solve scientific questions cause I seriously dont believe I can. Does that make me lazy? I just feel my purpose in life is to serve a different purpose. I mean you could go throughout your living life trying to solve every puzzle you can imagine and i'm not going to stop you. More power to you, cause such motivation can easily side tracked.
Your example such as money, properites and jesus vanishing is basically using religion as a scapegoat. Doesn't mean everyone follows this trend, in fact the Bible tells us what should and not to do in such situation. One just interpret in the way they want to read it. The bible actually tells us not to get into such arguements like this, cause truthfully we don't know everything. Only that can happen is frustration and perhaps corruption of what we originally thought.
You mention the Bible must be proven wrong before proven right but if you actually read the prophesy it's actually pretty accurate.
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, CAN'T YOU PEOPLE READ, OR DO YOU GET EVERYTHING BACKWARDS??? READ MY POST DUDE!!!!!!
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      12-30-2007, 03:50 PM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by e90im View Post
FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, CAN'T YOU PEOPLE READ, OR DO YOU GET EVERYTHING BACKWARDS??? READ MY POST DUDE!!!!!!
Sorry I typed it backwards.
But why do you nip pic grammarical error? but instead of concentrating the facts you're trying to point across?
If little error like that gets you so uptight I think the friendly debate is not worth the time. GL
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      12-31-2007, 04:35 PM   #165
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It is not a grammatical error, it's the fact that religious people interpret things the way they want...SWORD is WORD, black is white, when it suits you.
Next time you quote me, I suggest you use copy-paste. GL to you to.
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      02-04-2008, 09:50 PM   #166
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Most people who feel threatened by Christians have never openly read the Bible; it is God's word written by men; it is spiritually inspired and when u read it begin in the NT not the OT as it is much easier to understand; then go to the OT where the prophets were allowed real encounters with the Lord;

As for some of the questions on here about money; God allows His people to be successful just like atheist people are successful; He intends for us to use our means of success to help others, which we as a family do; we tithe 10% of our income to the church, we give generously to needy families at Christmas & throughout the year when the need arises; we support certain groups & mission funds; and as we spend, the Lord multiplies it back; I know this is extremely hard for unbelievers to understand or believe, but what can I say? You call us extremist or fundamentalist but I'm glad my place in heaven is sealed and I won't have to go thru the Tribulation period that will come one day and with all the happenings taking place in the world today; it won't be long; the town of Babylon which was a town of iniquity rests below what is now common day Iraq? hmmmmm??????
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      02-05-2008, 03:12 AM   #167
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolyn0944
Most people who feel threatened by Christians have never openly read the Bible; it is God's word written by men; it is spiritually inspired and when u read it begin in the NT not the OT as it is much easier to understand; then go to the OT where the prophets were allowed real encounters with the Lord
I dont feel threatened by Christians. As a muslim, I have took interest to read the Bible. However, this part always confuses me. A Christian came to my door the other day and said the same thing. She also tried to use the example of a manager conveying his thoughts to his secretary and he/she taking note of them.

However, while I agree that the word of God and the word of the prophet Jesus (AS) are in the Bible, I cannot agree that it is COMPLETELY the word of God. I shall explain.

Did you know that in the first book of the OT there are FIVE cases of Incest? I ask you to recall the story of Judah:

- He thought his daughter-in-law to be a harlot by the roadside (she had a veil on).
- he asked if he could have intercourse with her.
- she asked for a price, he gave his rings and bracelets.
- she had children by him.


Apart from those 5 cases of Incest. Consider other pornography in the Bible. I also ask you to recall Ezekiel 23:

- it tells about 2 sisters that were prostitutes.
- there is VIVID description about there sexual activities.
- it tells you about their lovers.
- it compares the genitals of the lovers to the size of donkey genitals and their emissions like that of horses!


Did you know this chapter was banned from South Africa? A committee decided that this chapter was so filthy it was considered pornography. What the interesting this is that there were 2 priests in that committee and they didnt recognise this to be the word of God and they banned the chapter not knowing so!

I ask you: Is this the word of God? The language is far too vulgar for a man to read to his mother, sister, wife or daughters. Please dont feel attacked by this question. I understand that people swear on the Bible and promise to tell the "whole truth and nothing but the truth", but really, is this the word of God? I can never imagine it to be.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolyn0944
You call us extremist or fundamentalist but I'm glad my place in heaven is sealed and I won't have to go thru the Tribulation period that will come one day and with all the happenings taking place in the world today
Can I ask what you mean by saying your place is sealed? I mean, if you were to sin again how can your place still be sealed?

This
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      02-05-2008, 03:19 PM   #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
I dont feel threatened by Christians. As a muslim, I have took interest to read the Bible. However, this part always confuses me. A Christian came to my door the other day and said the same thing. She also tried to use the example of a manager conveying his thoughts to his secretary and he/she taking note of them.

However, while I agree that the word of God and the word of the prophet Jesus (AS) are in the Bible, I cannot agree that it is COMPLETELY the word of God. I shall explain.

Did you know that in the first book of the OT there are FIVE cases of Incest? I ask you to recall the story of Judah:

- He thought his daughter-in-law to be a harlot by the roadside (she had a veil on).
- he asked if he could have intercourse with her.
- she asked for a price, he gave his rings and bracelets.
- she had children by him.


Apart from those 5 cases of Incest. Consider other pornography in the Bible. I also ask you to recall Ezekiel 23:

- it tells about 2 sisters that were prostitutes.
- there is VIVID description about there sexual activities.
- it tells you about their lovers.
- it compares the genitals of the lovers to the size of donkey genitals and their emissions like that of horses!


Did you know this chapter was banned from South Africa? A committee decided that this chapter was so filthy it was considered pornography. What the interesting this is that there were 2 priests in that committee and they didnt recognise this to be the word of God and they banned the chapter not knowing so!

I ask you: Is this the word of God? The language is far too vulgar for a man to read to his mother, sister, wife or daughters. Please dont feel attacked by this question. I understand that people swear on the Bible and promise to tell the "whole truth and nothing but the truth", but really, is this the word of God? I can never imagine it to be.



Can I ask what you mean by saying your place is sealed? I mean, if you were to sin again how can your place still be sealed?

This
OK, let's take the first instance u mention regarding the story of Judah; Judah was a widow - the daughter in law was a widow because the son Er had been slain due to his wickedness; the daughter in law had gone to live with her father; when Judah went to attend his sheep, the daughter in law deceived him with the veil; yes, this did take place as well as many other terrible stories in the Bible; now in Ezekiel 23, this is a parable - not about real women but about 2 nations Samaria & Jerusalem; comparing them to broken marriages & infidelity; they were to be God fearing nations & had become full of wickedness & idolatry; anyway too long to examine at short length here;

God warns that the Bible is not to be added to or taken from; there are several religions that have removed verses, or chapters, from their bible so therefore, they are not the infallible word of God.

Also, when someone comes to your door in the name of Christianity or Jesus, many of these people are not speaking of the same Jesus or God I know. This is a fallacy that if you are not Bible literate, you cannot decipher the difference.

My place in heaven is sealed by my accepting Christ as my savior and my baptism. Baptism saves noone but is an act of obedience to Him. Jesus felt it important enough to be baptized by John & stressed we were to be baptized. He says if we are not willing to acknowledge Him before man, He will not acknowledge us before His father who is in heaven. Once saved, always saved. That isn't to say we do not sin ever again; it should be that we strive never to sin though. We sin every day in the small things as well as big things we do. We are human and mortal; we have a conscientious and a free will which sets us apart from animals. God expects us to use them.

We are created in his image and we will all either return to Him one day (if saved) or we will be cast into the fire (hell)...Greater love hath no man than this, than he lay down his life for a friend..Galatians 5:13
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      02-05-2008, 03:21 PM   #169
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Can I ask what you mean by saying your place is sealed? I mean, if you were to sin again how can your place still be sealed?

I'll try and answer this. You can kill, lie, cheat, molest, torture, as long as you DO NOT HAVE ANY OTHER GODS BEFORE JC*, you'll be forgiven.
Kinda like suicide bombers going to heaven...


* This implies that GOD acknowledges that there are other gods, no?
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      02-05-2008, 03:25 PM   #170
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Ezekiel 25:17:
'The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides with the iniquities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men.
Blessed is he who in the name of charity and good will shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness,
for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children.
And I will strike down upon those with great vengeance and with furious anger those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers.
And you will know that my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.'
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      02-05-2008, 03:51 PM   #171
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolyn0944
OK, let's take the first instance u mention regarding the story of Judah; Judah was a widow - the daughter in law was a widow because the son Er had been slain due to his wickedness; the daughter in law had gone to live with her father; when Judah went to attend his sheep, the daughter in law deceived him with the veil; yes, this did take place as well as many other terrible stories in the Bible; now in Ezekiel 23, this is a parable - not about real women but about 2 nations Samaria & Jerusalem; comparing them to broken marriages & infidelity; they were to be God fearing nations & had become full of wickedness & idolatry; anyway too long to examine at short length here;
It's good to see you understand the Bible well. I agree with what happened. BUT I might add that the sin was not only on the daughter-in-law. Even if she was really a harlot, Judah wanted to have intercourse outside marriage.

However, what I'm getting at is that you say the Bible is the INSPIRED word of God. I cant bring myself to believe that God INSPIRED men to write using such vulgar language. Why is this? The Quran reminds us of fallen nations before us in detail but never uses vulgar language.

As I said, it isnt something you would want to read to anyone of close relation to you. No man would want to read that to his children and have them ask what donkey sized genitals and horse emissions are.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carolyn0944
God warns that the Bible is not to be added to or taken from; there are several religions that have removed verses, or chapters, from their bible so therefore, they are not the infallible word of God.
Hmm. I think you should see how the Bible was compiled though. Many books were banned from the Bible and then burned and destroyed. Some were even just lost because it was written on perishable material. The Bible isnt even a book itself, it's a collection of books that were never intended to be part of a Bible.
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      02-05-2008, 05:27 PM   #172
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You shall have no other gods before Me...That is the first commandment...This refers to not only in the form of man but also anything that you worship (money, cars, etc.) above Him...No you cannot do the sins you mention and expect to have no punishment for such sins...people who are true Christians do not commit these sins; they either never were a Christian or have turned from their faith..God never leaves us, we choose to leave Him; but at the same time, He always accepts us back if we repent..but His forgiveness does not mean that mortal man cannot and does not punish them on earth; i.e. preachers who commit adultery, men who commit crimes, will be punished by being imprisoned or put to death. It makes their crimes no less but forgiveness can be had even to the murderer if he truly repents...You here of jailhouse repentance or death bed repentance every day but we are not to questions it, God knows if its real...

The Bible as far as my faith is concerned (Southern Baptist) is 66 books compiled by prophets in the OT & disciples in the NT who actually walked with Christ. We hv studied the many stories of verses left out, books left out, etc. but the Bible to be inspired by God. Many of the books in the Bible parallel each other but written by different writers. As for what has been "lost" I cannot answer. You cannot know what was in what we cannot read, only what we can...Anyone who reads and truly studies His word has to realize it is amazing how all the pieces fit, how the stories told and handed down thru the ages, how things in history have been proven; it cannot be a work of fiction or of mortal men. You could not write and foretell of the things that have been told in this book nor of the NT writings foretelling of Christ's coming, death, and resurrection. There will always be things we do not understand the way we would like but will be answered when we get to heaven....But my Lord would never condone killing innocent people in any manner. He told us even after the 10 commandments were handed down, a new commandment I give you, "that you love your neighbor as yourself."

By the way, on our last discussion about Judah====yes he wanted sex without marriage, but this was quite common in the OT times and before God destroyed the earth by water with Noah because man had become so sinful.
If you recall during this time, people laughed & scoffed at Noah because never had they seen rain nor could understand why anyone would build a boat for years and no rain --- but it came and they went....
After Jesus appeared on earth, He preached on marriage and having only one wife...In OT times in the beginning of time, there were not many people on earth in Adam and Eve's day; therefore, inner marriage was actually necessary to pro create...but after Jesus arrived on earth this was not accepted; He even chastized the woman at the well by telling her she had been with 3 or 4 men but none was her husband; He told her to go on your way and sin no more...He loves the sinner but hates the sin....
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      02-05-2008, 05:46 PM   #173
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OK, let's take the first instance u mention regarding the story of Judah; Judah was a widow - the daughter in law was a widow because the son Er had been slain due to his wickedness; the daughter in law had gone to live with her father; when Judah went to attend his sheep, the daughter in law deceived him with the veil; yes, this did take place as well as many other terrible stories in the Bible; now in Ezekiel 23, this is a parable - not about real women but about 2 nations Samaria & Jerusalem; comparing them to broken marriages & infidelity; they were to be God fearing nations & had become full of wickedness & idolatry; anyway too long to examine at short length here;

God warns that the Bible is not to be added to or taken from; there are several religions that have removed verses, or chapters, from their bible so therefore, they are not the infallible word of God.

Also, when someone comes to your door in the name of Christianity or Jesus, many of these people are not speaking of the same Jesus or God I know. This is a fallacy that if you are not Bible literate, you cannot decipher the difference.

My place in heaven is sealed by my accepting Christ as my savior and my baptism. Baptism saves noone but is an act of obedience to Him. Jesus felt it important enough to be baptized by John & stressed we were to be baptized. He says if we are not willing to acknowledge Him before man, He will not acknowledge us before His father who is in heaven. Once saved, always saved. That isn't to say we do not sin ever again; it should be that we strive never to sin though. We sin every day in the small things as well as big things we do. We are human and mortal; we have a conscientious and a free will which sets us apart from animals. God expects us to use them.

We are created in his image and we will all either return to Him one day (if saved) or we will be cast into the fire (hell)...Greater love hath no man than this, than he lay down his life for a friend..Galatians 5:13
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Originally Posted by hks786 View Post
It's good to see you understand the Bible well. I agree with what happened. BUT I might add that the sin was not only on the daughter-in-law. Even if she was really a harlot, Judah wanted to have intercourse outside marriage.

However, what I'm getting at is that you say the Bible is the INSPIRED word of God. I cant bring myself to believe that God INSPIRED men to write using such vulgar language. Why is this? The Quran reminds us of fallen nations before us in detail but never uses vulgar language.

As I said, it isnt something you would want to read to anyone of close relation to you. No man would want to read that to his children and have them ask what donkey sized genitals and horse emissions are.



Hmm. I think you should see how the Bible was compiled though. Many books were banned from the Bible and then burned and destroyed. Some were even just lost because it was written on perishable material. The Bible isnt even a book itself, it's a collection of books that were never intended to be part of a Bible.

Forgot to add this: I went back & read Ezekiel 23...my Bible does not use the "porno" line that u quoted me..mine states in v.20 she (Oholibah or Jerusalem) doted upon her paramours whose flesh is as the flesh of asses & whose issue is like the issue of horses. It takes a mature Christian to decipher this verse & I don't think most children would understand it, as well as a lot of adults. It was speaking of the shame and sin that she as a nation had allowed in their land...Some very explicit writings are in the Bible but are necessary to show the condition that man was in; preaching hell is not a popular topic either but if you leave it out there is no purpose in salvation.
You cannot do enought "good deeds" to enter heaven; only realizing and accepting you are a sinner and asking forgiveness will get u there. You cannot earn it.
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      02-05-2008, 06:50 PM   #174
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Man, some really scary shit over here...
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      02-05-2008, 07:37 PM   #175
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Man, some really scary shit over here...
what really frightens you about this?
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      02-05-2008, 08:36 PM   #176
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what really frightens you about this?
Frightens me that you are as fanatic as those threatening our freedoms in this country...by saying things like that...
Saying something so assuring to you just by reading a man-made book and listening to the preaching of people who profit from your beliefs...
Frightening is that the evolution gave you the brain that you don't use at all...

I am OK with the believers and people that question things not proven or seen... But to hear and read the lines you wrote are just plain insane...
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