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      09-28-2021, 09:26 PM   #1
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Question What do the more expensive BMWs have over the lower ones?

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I remember sitting in a 7 maybe 10 years ago and seeing all of this fancy tech that my 335 didn't have. It seemed that everything started in the 7's and then would eventually trickle down to the lower models some years later. I also remember some iDrive features that I had during my euro delivery that the US didn't have like which lane to be in for a turn. I remember seeing the 3d outside spin around the car view on that 7 that I just now have in 2021. These days though it seems that all the cars share the tech with iDrive and cameras, etc. So, what do you get in a 7 or 8 these days aside from the engine, larger car etc that you don't get on the 3/4s now? I guess I'm mostly thinking tech wise.
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      09-29-2021, 12:33 AM   #2
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Do you have massaging seats?

You should watch the new Doug video on the Mercedes S class. I don't know how much of that tech is similar with BMW, but that gives you a great insight into what the top-dog car in their lineup has. In short, lots of stuff and the stuff that is similar is simply much more advanced or better. It's like a freaking spaceship on wheels.

The real issue is always marginal gains for lots more money. It's ALWAYS been like this. Luxury cars are going to have lots of features that you rarely or sometimes never use. To get that higher level of materials, comfort and features, you are going to pay something like 50% more, but is it 50% more comfortable and better? No, it's probably only like 20%, and that's basic business economics. But if your standard is that higher level, it's a no-brainer. Or maybe you can't live without something that is inherent to that car, like the rear space. As in, if you are going to be carrying around family members, the 335 isn't horrible, but it's still pretty cramped. Something like a 7 or 8 is much more of a "big family car" where everyone can be fairly comfortable at the same time, possibly for much longer distances too.

But those vids where they discuss all the features will give you the insight into this.
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      09-29-2021, 10:31 AM   #3
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In some cases just the availability of certain options.

I recently ran into this situation when we were shopping for a new SUV. We didn't really need the X5, as the X3 would have been more than adequate for our family of 3.

But I happened to sit in the X3 and X5 back to back, and holy crap the difference was night and day. The materials quality, seat comfort, and overall feel was significantly better in the X5. Everything felt way more premium, and that pretty much sealed the deal for us to get the X5.

Beyond just materials quality, the availability of options was a pretty big difference:

Things the X5 offered that the X3 didn't:
Air suspension - made the ride silky smooth
Massaging seats - great for long trips
High quality marino leather - much softer and comfortable (and way better looking) than the vernasca in the X3
Glass controls - really gave the cabin an upscale look
Soft Close Doors

In regards to the technology side - you're correct, there wasn't a huge difference in the tech offered between the X3 and X5. But it was the intangibles like the overall quality of materials and just how luxurious it felt sitting in the cabin that sold us.
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      09-29-2021, 11:08 AM   #4
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
But I happened to sit in the X3 and X5 back to back, and holy crap the difference was night and day. The materials quality, seat comfort, and overall feel was significantly better in the X5. Everything felt way more premium, and that pretty much sealed the deal for us to get the X5.
We did the same thing a couple months ago and were amazed at the massive difference in luxury between the X3 vs X5.
Felt different on the road as well with the X5 feeling a lot more premium.
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      09-29-2021, 11:26 AM   #5
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Additional luxury & performance features. You have added features going up in series and then going up in the versions like from 320 to 340 and so on. Most of the time if you wanted to add the desired features after the car's build, it would cost more. It really comes down to whether or not the features are worth it to you that you would spend the additional dollars.
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      09-29-2021, 11:40 AM   #6
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Yea, the increased luxury makes sense to me. Like I said though it seemed like it used to be that the higher models like the 7 has fancy new tech that would take several years to trickle down, but now seems that the tech is pretty close to the same across the line up.
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      09-29-2021, 01:33 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snareman View Post
Yea, the increased luxury makes sense to me. Like I said though it seemed like it used to be that the higher models like the 7 has fancy new tech that would take several years to trickle down, but now seems that the tech is pretty close to the same across the line up.
This is absolutely the case across the luxury space and it is reflective of the stiffer competition posed by non-luxury manufacturers and shifting buyer demographics. In the past Luxury cars sold themselves as sort of must have for various segments of the population. So the car makers could very easily slice those luxury buyers up into neat little squares where the smaller, cheaper, car was aimed at introducing the buyers to the lineup at a younger stage in life and as they moved up career and family size they moved up in the lineup. Since they’d also be older they had more money to spend as well. Of course, you needed to offer them things that pulled them up tier and kept them there.

You fast forward to today where the younger generation is increasingly buying used cars and are uninterested in “luxury” features, but are heavily focused on technology and you combine that with lots of tech being available on cars that are a fraction of the price of luxury cars and you see why automakers are going down this road. Don’t forget that the new car buyers in the US are older as well and aren’t as interested in the tech so you have two converging realities at play. If the automaker fails to find younger buyers they’ll fade as older buyers die off.

A prime example of this was when Mercedes-Benz revamped their in car infotainment system the last time with MBUX and it was introduced to the market on the A class instead of the S class. The old playbook would have never seen this occur! But Mercedes was pitching it as a car that could hopefully keep a younger buyer out of a Tesla Model 3. If the buyer wanted electric obviously the A class was a non-starter, but if they wanted “luxury” and “tech” they might look at Mercedes — or so they hoped.

You’re going to see more of this and not less. If anything the current market shortages have forced luxury brands to try and return a bit to the older model, but it won’t last long. IMHO the luxury brands are struggling REALLY HARD to adapt to the new world.
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      09-29-2021, 02:08 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matt 335is View Post
We did the same thing a couple months ago and were amazed at the massive difference in luxury between the X3 vs X5.
Felt different on the road as well with the X5 feeling a lot more premium.
Similar difference between a 3 series and a 5 series.
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      09-29-2021, 02:24 PM   #9
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Sometimes you pay more for less (as in weight savings or performance).
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      09-29-2021, 03:50 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snareman View Post
I remember sitting in a 7 maybe 10 years ago and seeing all of this fancy tech that my 335 didn't have. It seemed that everything started in the 7's and then would eventually trickle down to the lower models some years later. I also remember some iDrive features that I had during my euro delivery that the US didn't have like which lane to be in for a turn. I remember seeing the 3d outside spin around the car view on that 7 that I just now have in 2021. These days though it seems that all the cars share the tech with iDrive and cameras, etc. So, what do you get in a 7 or 8 these days aside from the engine, larger car etc that you don't get on the 3/4s now? I guess I'm mostly thinking tech wise.
Typically newer features are introduce on the higher series and/or trim levels within a series. Additionally, more features are either standard or only available on a higher trim level.

For example,

An entry level within a series or between series (X4 vs. X6) may have Sensatec/Leatherette, M Sport may have Vernasca/Dakota leather w/option for Merino, M may have Merino with extended leather as an option

One thing, I have seen w/COVID rationing is that an option may not be offered in the lower level w/in a series but available in the next level up, e.g. X6 40i vs. X6 M50i, latter has HK option.

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      09-29-2021, 07:58 PM   #11
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The best difference to make you pay up is the seats. The seats in the 5er's and up are superior due to the multi-contour adjustability. That being said, I don't think you feel the difference of a 5 versus a 7-series in the same way you would feel about an E versus S-Class. Materials is the other big difference although in say an X5 versus X7 it's mostly identical. Most of the tech differences these days are mainly suspension related, and of course the more money, the bigger the engines.

The difference in a 5 versus 3 I would argue is much bigger than a 5 versus 7.
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      09-29-2021, 09:11 PM   #12
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Going from a 335i to an M4, the first thing I noticed about going up in in class was the overall build quality and the stiffness of the chassis. I’m at 40,000 miles now and I swear there still isn’t a rattle anywhere. The interior materials have also held up really well, including the Competition seats bolsters.
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      09-29-2021, 09:30 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jbrown7403 View Post
Going from a 335i to an M4, the first thing I noticed about going up in in class was the overall build quality and the stiffness of the chassis. I’m at 40,000 miles now and I swear there still isn’t a rattle anywhere. The interior materials have also held up really well, including the Competition seats bolsters.
Hate to tell you going from a 3 to a 4 is not moving up a class, unless you're drinking the BMW Kool-Aid. I've sold BMWs for nearly 45-years and a 3 and a 4 use the same level of materials and are (if you disregard the 4-series GC) made in the same plant. And it makes no difference in materials if you buy normal or M. If you want to see better quality, you have to go up to a 5er.

As it turns out, I think the 1-series E82 was built better than its contemporary 3-series.
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      09-29-2021, 09:35 PM   #14
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Hate to tell you going from a 3 to a 4 is not moving up a class, unless you're drinking the BMW Kool-Aid. I've sold BMWs for nearly 45-years and a 3 and a 4 use the same level of materials and are (if you disregard the 4-series GC) made in the same plant. And it makes no difference in materials if you buy normal or M. If you want to see better quality, you have to go up to a 5er.

As it turns out, I think the 1-series E82 was built better than its contemporary 3-series.
Well that's not entirely true...

A 3 series has vernasca leather (sensetac as standard) and a sensetac dash. An M3 can be had with merino leather and a leather dash. There's definitely a difference in that regard and you notice it.
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      09-29-2021, 10:03 PM   #15
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This is a very valid question. In the automotive industry as a whole the lines have blurred. There used to be tech, acceleration, refinement, etc. that were only available on luxury makes and nowhere else. However nowadays even a Honda Accord can be reasonably quick, have a bunch of tech/autonomous driving features, plenty space, and attractive styling, etc. Modern cars have just become so objectively good that nothing is really a shyt box anymore.

Same story within the luxury makes themselves. Sit in an 8-series then in a 4-series and besides some extra leather in places, is there much difference in the interior design and overall cabin ambiance? How much faster is the 8 than the 4 really? Is cabin tech much different? I'd say the lines have really blurred.

And of course automakers have found new ways to streamline production in order to minimize costs. Remember the Bangle era? Every BMW had a very unique exterior and interior design. Only commonalities were the switchgear, buttons, etc. and even then they weren't always identical. Now look at the modern 3/4, X5, and 8-series. Many of the interior components are very very similar.
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      09-30-2021, 04:10 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
Well that's not entirely true...

A 3 series has vernasca leather (sensetac as standard) and a sensetac dash. An M3 can be had with merino leather and a leather dash. There's definitely a difference in that regard and you notice it.
I think he is talking about the overall built quality rather than the optional leather material difference. Pretty sure outside of US you can individual the crap out of any model. US market car has pretty limited options list.

Comparing G20 to G30 with similar tech, you will feel a dramatic difference in luxury and comfort between the two.
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      09-30-2021, 07:35 AM   #17
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Sometimes, it's just exclusivity and not driving what the rest of the neighborhood is.
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      09-30-2021, 02:51 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wtwo3 View Post
Well that's not entirely true...

A 3 series has vernasca leather (sensetac as standard) and a sensetac dash. An M3 can be had with merino leather and a leather dash. There's definitely a difference in that regard and you notice it.
It's close enough.

3-series can be gotten in some pretty econo-configs that are really stripped down. We don't see as many of them in the US, we get 320s, but it's basically true. Sure, a loaded M4/440 compared to a stripped 320 isn't close, but you can put enough luxury packages on both to be pretty similar on the interior materials. It's not a paradigm shift. If you want that, the 5 series will get close to that.

This gets to be my main beef with people reviewing interiors of cars, they tend to remember the ones they like, then compare them with cars way out of the pricepoint, ignoring the ones the manufacturer makes at the correct pricepoint for comparison, or ignoring the materials in the more appropriate comparison.

And it's not like a 5 series is going to be that much difference, but it's a noticeable step in room and materials the way most are equipped. You can can always go apples to oranges and compared a stripped model to a completely outfitted one. An M5 has all kinds of wizardry that doesn't exist on a 4-series and it has taken a while to get the new M3/M4 out with their AWD systems.

This is probably the one thing that the automakers do best, keep the incremental changes between lines, packages and options in order (to maximize profit).

An M5 can go for around 130K, an M3/4 for 75. Is the M5 2x faster or 2x bigger? Nope. Does it have a little better materials and stuff, yep. Enough that it's a significant step? Yep. But that's where they've gotten it down to a hard science, packages, options, etc. Has anyone ever bought a complete "stripper" BMW with no options?
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      09-30-2021, 02:55 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Germanauto View Post
This is a very valid question. In the automotive industry as a whole the lines have blurred. There used to be tech, acceleration, refinement, etc. that were only available on luxury makes and nowhere else. However nowadays even a Honda Accord can be reasonably quick, have a bunch of tech/autonomous driving features, plenty space, and attractive styling, etc. Modern cars have just become so objectively good that nothing is really a shyt box anymore.

Same story within the luxury makes themselves. Sit in an 8-series then in a 4-series and besides some extra leather in places, is there much difference in the interior design and overall cabin ambiance? How much faster is the 8 than the 4 really? Is cabin tech much different? I'd say the lines have really blurred.

And of course automakers have found new ways to streamline production in order to minimize costs. Remember the Bangle era? Every BMW had a very unique exterior and interior design. Only commonalities were the switchgear, buttons, etc. and even then they weren't always identical. Now look at the modern 3/4, X5, and 8-series. Many of the interior components are very very similar.
I'll go back a little on what I said above though, I do agree that the lines are becoming more blurred. I would say they are becoming more blurred because the internet and modern communication have blasted everything out into the open. There are no more real secrets or special sauce that is being used. It's a matter of whether an automaker wants to do something, but not a matter of ability, where it was much more in the past IMO. Previously, it was unheard of for a US car to have as good or better drying dynamics than say, a BMW, but it's happened and is not out of the ordinary now. Same thing with luxury, other manufacturers figured out what and how, rather than say just making under-sprung land-yachts. That doesn't mean they always have the will to do so, but it erodes the automakers that made their reputation on this. This IMO is where you get BMW, Porsche and others selling so many SUVs, because they have to "join in", rather than hedge upon something that no longer really exists, superior driving dynamics or luxury experience. Some of the differences are getting smaller, to the point where they may be trivial to most people.
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      09-30-2021, 07:50 PM   #20
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Quote:
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I'll go back a little on what I said above though, I do agree that the lines are becoming more blurred. I would say they are becoming more blurred because the internet and modern communication have blasted everything out into the open. There are no more real secrets or special sauce that is being used. It's a matter of whether an automaker wants to do something, but not a matter of ability, where it was much more in the past IMO. Previously, it was unheard of for a US car to have as good or better drying dynamics than say, a BMW, but it's happened and is not out of the ordinary now. Same thing with luxury, other manufacturers figured out what and how, rather than say just making under-sprung land-yachts. That doesn't mean they always have the will to do so, but it erodes the automakers that made their reputation on this. This IMO is where you get BMW, Porsche and others selling so many SUVs, because they have to "join in", rather than hedge upon something that no longer really exists, superior driving dynamics or luxury experience. Some of the differences are getting smaller, to the point where they may be trivial to most people.
Yeah in such a global and tech-dominated world, nearly every automaker is trying to be everything to everybody. The result is that every automaker is objectively making good cars but on the flipside there is less individuality among brands. Clarkson said several years ago that the Germans have been trying to hard to chase the same customer that they are essentially selling the same cars! There's a lot of truth to that.

And in the age of electrification it's going to get even worse. Nearly every vehicle is going to ride on some sort of modular skateboard platform. When you eliminate differences in sound, engine, transmission etc. then there really isn't anything unique about any product besides the superficial shit at the surface such as styling, interior, and tech.
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      10-06-2021, 09:51 AM   #21
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It is interesting to see how the car market has changed over the years. Every manufacturer seems to offer about the same thing (sedan, small SUV, Mid SUV, Large SUV, etc). The packages are almost exactly the same also.

The point that styling (interior and exterior) is going to be a big differentiator is spot on. In addition, the "feeling" that a person has in the car will also be a big impact. I recently purchased a X3. When looking across similar competition (Jag, Mercedes, Audi), it was really about the style and feelings. In fact, I started in Jag because I like the style until the LCI changes.
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      10-06-2021, 10:53 AM   #22
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Originally Posted by BobBMWX3 View Post
It is interesting to see how the car market has changed over the years. Every manufacturer seems to offer about the same thing (sedan, small SUV, Mid SUV, Large SUV, etc). The packages are almost exactly the same also.

The point that styling (interior and exterior) is going to be a big differentiator is spot on. In addition, the "feeling" that a person has in the car will also be a big impact. I recently purchased a X3. When looking across similar competition (Jag, Mercedes, Audi), it was really about the style and feelings. In fact, I started in Jag because I like the style until the LCI changes.
I don't see how this is any different than it has ever been, really. A new Audi is every bit as "different" (however you want to measure that) from a new MB or BMW as a 1965 Ford was from a '65 Chevy. Probably far more different actually, because the way you interface with the car can be dramatically different now - iDrive vs. touch screen etc.
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