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      10-07-2020, 09:48 AM   #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I agree Max made too many mistakes in the beginning and he could have more wins than he does. Also say he started F1 when he was 17 and Hamilton when he was 22? At the next race, like virtually every race in the last few years it is MB's race to lose unless something out of the ordinary happens or they screw up. If Hamilton and Max were to flip cars there is a chance Hamilton would have done better than Max did but Max suddenly would have a lot more wins than he does now. So many races the "race" is really over about 20 seconds after the lights go out. Then I do a rain dance or hope MB's screws up to make it an actual race.

I don't think anyone can prove that at this point in time that Hamilton is better than Max and one of the big problems with the competition is the car plays a major part of it.
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      10-07-2020, 10:16 AM   #90
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Everyone keeps banging on about Hamilton, he's a good driver but nobody has considered who gave him the car to win, Toto has developed the team into what it is today so in my book if Hamilton leaves Bottas will be the next Champion, that's how good the car and the team are.
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      10-07-2020, 01:13 PM   #91
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I agree Max made too many mistakes in the beginning and he could have more wins than he does. Also say he started F1 when he was 17 and Hamilton when he was 22? At the next race, like virtually every race in the last few years it is MB's race to lose unless something out of the ordinary happens or they screw up. If Hamilton and Max were to flip cars there is a chance Hamilton would have done better than Max did but Max suddenly would have a lot more wins than he does now. So many races the "race" is really over about 20 seconds after the lights go out. Then I do a rain dance or hope MB's screws up to make it an actual race.

I don't think anyone can prove that at this point in time that Hamilton is better than Max and one of the big problems with the competition is the car plays a major part of it.
Did you watch the 2007 season...Hamilton's rookie year?
The best rookie year for any F1 driver ever and by a mile.
He started the season having had a few hours pre season practice at Barcelona-Catalunya but zero F1 race time at any of the other tracks.
He hadn't even raced at several of the F1 tracks in previous series.

So with almost no time in an F1 car or set up experience he was up against 2 time world champ Alonso - regarded by his peers as one of the best drivers of his era.
The rest is history..bar a gearbox glitch he would have won the DWC in his rookie year.

I don't really like Hamilton but he has a natural talent that far surpasses Verstappen.
If Verstappen crashed less then sure you could put it all down to the car.
Verstappen is fast but lacks Hamiltons natural feel for driving at the limit.
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      10-07-2020, 01:22 PM   #92
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M5theonlyone View Post
Haha what really is, must pinch the Max bashers badly my friend.
"Front page news in Belgium" (the latest F1 news)

The article is in Dutch only => https://racingnews365.nl/hamilton-wi...kele-race-meer

Of course this article is applicable in this thread only !
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      10-07-2020, 01:27 PM   #93
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Did you watch the 2007 season...Hamilton's rookie year?
The best rookie year for any F1 driver ever and by a mile.
He started the season having had a few hours pre season practice at Barcelona-Catalunya but zero F1 race time at any of the other tracks.
He hadn't even raced at several of the F1 tracks in previous series.

So with almost no time in an F1 car or set up experience he was up against 2 time world champ Alonso - regarded by his peers as one of the best drivers of his era.
The rest is history..bar a gearbox glitch he would have won the DWC in his rookie year.

I don't really like Hamilton but he has a natural talent that far surpasses Verstappen.
If Verstappen crashed less then sure you could put it all down to the car.
Verstappen is fast but lacks Hamiltons natural feel for driving at the limit.

I agree, Hamilton's rookie season was one of the best ever. Not seeing how you will ever prove Hamilton's the best ever or his level of natural talent or ability to drive at the limit being above everyone else's, it just an opinion. We'll also never know how much of what he accomplished was his ability or the luck in switching from Mclaren to MB at the exact right time. If he hadn't made the switch his career could have looked much different

I also never said Max was better than Hamilton overall, just brought up the question that if in equal cars today I don't know who would win.

I think Max is now 23 and Hamilton started F1 when he was 22. If Max had waited another 5 years to join F1 (22 instead of 17), and gotten more experience some amount of the mistakes wouldn't have happened and he obviously would have acted more mature in his first few years.
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      10-07-2020, 01:46 PM   #94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
I agree, Hamilton's rookie season was one of the best ever. Not seeing how you will ever prove Hamilton's the best ever or his level of natural talent or ability to drive at the limit being above everyone else's, it just an opinion. We'll also never know how much of what he accomplished was his ability or the luck in switching from Mclaren to MB at the exact right time. If he had hadn't made the switch his career could have looked much different

I also never said Max was better than Hamilton overall, just brought up the question that if in equal cars today I don't know who would win.

I think Max is now 23 and Hamilton started F1 when he was 22. If Max had waited another 5 years to join F1 some amount of the mistakes would have been reduced and he obviously would have acted more grown up in his first few years.
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      10-07-2020, 01:51 PM   #95
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So I donít think many people here claim that Ham is the best driver ever. But he is on top, worked hard to get there, and outperforms the rest of the field almost every day.

Can we stop feeding the trolls now?

Ver supporters here wonít give any driver credit to anyone other than their guy, and continue to argue the only reason Ham wins is the car. No matter what. And when Ver screws up, they will target everyone else but him for the mistakes.

So yes, letís put the troll food away.
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      10-07-2020, 02:09 PM   #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
So I donít think many people here claim that Ham is the best driver ever. But he is on top, worked hard to get there, and outperforms the rest of the field almost every day.

Can we stop feeding the trolls now?

Ver supporters here wonít give any driver credit to anyone other than their guy, and continue to argue the only reason Ham wins is the car. No matter what. And when Ver screws up, they will target everyone else but him for the mistakes.

So yes, letís put the troll food away.
Not sure what you are talking about with the trolls, its been a very normal discussion.

Strange that you follow this up with "Ver supporters here ..... only reason Ham wins is the car. No matter what." I think zero have said this and it seems very much "trolling".
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      10-07-2020, 02:27 PM   #97
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Look back a few pages and a few threads.
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      10-07-2020, 06:02 PM   #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David70 View Post
Not sure what you are talking about with the trolls, its been a very normal discussion.

Strange that you follow this up with "Ver supporters here ..... only reason Ham wins is the car. No matter what." I think zero have said this and it seems very much "trolling".
LOL all the guys who "liked" your post have pretty much said exactly that... Either you're blind or.....
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      10-08-2020, 03:55 AM   #99
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What VER fans seem to forget is that HAM+MER developed that car together to what it is now. "Giving" the MER car to VER is BS if you ask me, if you really like to compare, you should "give the MER team" to VER and develop a car and race it. Which is BS too when I think about it.

For a fair comparison about who has the extraordinary skills, you should both test them in a RB, having to drive around the many issues that car has. And to do it totally fair, you should give HAM and VER 10 race events to further develop the car, independently. Let's see who shows to be part of the fastest package after those 10 races + development.

Being a VER fan, I would not put all my money on VER to be honest ;-) Driver input required for the development of a car takes a large part of the ingredients for winning races.
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      10-08-2020, 04:53 AM   #100
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Driver input required for the development of a car takes a large part of the ingredients for winning races.[/QUOTE]

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      10-08-2020, 07:32 AM   #101
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Devotion View Post
Driver input required for the development of a car takes a large part of the ingredients for winning races.
Not totally convinced about that. Sure a driver has to be able to understand how the car drives and what areas need to be improved to suit that drivers style.
And it is certainly possible to account for a drivers preference for a car that is pointy, evenly balanced or a touch understeery.
But the vast majority of a cars development is obviously in the engine and aero.
A driver will have essentially zero input into the engine design or the cars aero philosophy.
I think the mark of a truly great driver is the ability to get into any car and drive it at its limit right from the very first races.
You could see that in Senna and Hamilton.
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      10-08-2020, 11:41 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Not totally convinced about that. Sure a driver has to be able to understand how the car drives and what areas need to be improved to suit that drivers style.
And it is certainly possible to account for a drivers preference for a car that is pointy, evenly balanced or a touch understeery.
But the vast majority of a cars development is obviously in the engine and aero.
A driver will have essentially zero input into the engine design or the cars aero philosophy.
I think the mark of a truly great driver is the ability to get into any car and drive it at its limit right from the very first races.
You could see that in Senna and Hamilton.
Agree completely, driver gives his input on a lot things, some are his preference but how many times have we heard the driver ask if one of the many sensors and data report something out of the ordinary? Data can tell you what aero is needed and how the engine it performing.
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      10-08-2020, 11:54 AM   #103
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IllSic_Design View Post
LOL all the guys who "liked" your post have pretty much said exactly that... Either you're blind or.....
LOLWUT
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      10-08-2020, 01:13 PM   #104
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch Devotion View Post
What VER fans seem to forget is that HAM+MER developed that car together to what it is now. "Giving" the MER car to VER is BS if you ask me, if you really like to compare, you should "give the MER team" to VER and develop a car and race it. Which is BS too when I think about it.

For a fair comparison about who has the extraordinary skills, you should both test them in a RB, having to drive around the many issues that car has. And to do it totally fair, you should give HAM and VER 10 race events to further develop the car, independently. Let's see who shows to be part of the fastest package after those 10 races + development.

Being a VER fan, I would not put all my money on VER to be honest ;-) Driver input required for the development of a car takes a large part of the ingredients for winning races.
Quote:
Originally Posted by M5theonlyone View Post
Driver input required for the development of a car takes a large part of the ingredients for winning races.
https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/02...ne-since-2007/[/QUOTE]

Quote:
Originally Posted by SenorFunkyPants View Post
Not totally convinced about that. Sure a driver has to be able to understand how the car drives and what areas need to be improved to suit that drivers style.
And it is certainly possible to account for a drivers preference for a car that is pointy, evenly balanced or a touch understeery.
But the vast majority of a cars development is obviously in the engine and aero.
A driver will have essentially zero input into the engine design or the cars aero philosophy.
I think the mark of a truly great driver is the ability to get into any car and drive it at its limit right from the very first races.
You could see that in Senna and Hamilton.
Driver input is essential in developing the car and it is no wonder that the Mercedes is much improved in the area of rear tire management since Lewis joined the team and immediately after McLaren fell into woe. I will paraphrase a quote about Lewis Hamilton relative to testing: "When we get the car back from Lewis in testing, we know that every bit of performance has been extracted from the car. I can't say that for any other driver."

Another quote from a driver who shared the same car, Jenson Button: "If Lewis ever learns how to use his engineers, we may as well not show up to race (against him)."

Lewis makes the difference no matter the chassis and despite all of the hatred and outright lies, he will definitely go down as the greatest F1 driver, both statistically and subjectively.
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      10-08-2020, 01:40 PM   #105
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Originally Posted by IllSic_Design View Post
LOL all the guys who "liked" your post have pretty much said exactly that... Either you're blind or.....
LOL "...have pretty much said...." the catch all in conversations where things don't exactly line up.
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      10-08-2020, 01:51 PM   #106
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LOL "...have pretty much said...." the catch all in conversations where things don't exactly line up.
Why donít you ask M5 and Belgian if anyone, particularly max would win in the Merc? See what happens...
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      10-08-2020, 02:54 PM   #107
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Why donít you ask M5 and Belgian if anyone, particularly max would win in the Merc? See what happens...
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      10-08-2020, 03:02 PM   #108
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Originally Posted by ///M Power-Belgium View Post
I'm actually going to give you a thumbs up on this one. Good answer. Had you said yes, you'd just proven my point.
Had you said no, I would always use it against you in your future post.

So credit where credit is due.

But now all I have to do is wait... It won't be long
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      10-08-2020, 03:31 PM   #109
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5.M0NSTER View Post
I'm actually going to give you a thumbs up on this one. Good answer. Had you said yes, you'd just proven my point.
Had you said no, I would always use it against you in your future post.

So credit where credit is due.

But now all I have to do is wait... It won't be long
You are right . You have to wait mate !
Till next Sunday ...


To see how your MIB hits the wall in the rain !
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      10-08-2020, 03:37 PM   #110
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You are right . You have to wait mate !
Till next Sunday ...


To see how your MIB hits the wall in the rain !
You seem to forget. I don't care who wins. Anyone but your adolescent deserves to take it. Perhaps STR will be on top?

I don't have a favorite. I certainly have a least favorite though.
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