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      08-11-2014, 09:11 PM   #243
Dalko43
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I meant to say before and didn't...

In all those example, my answer is the same: they did not punch hard enough. I don't care how hard they did punch or tried to punch, or why they didn't punch harder. It wasn't hard enough. Period.

If it's the case that they could physically punch no harder, then it was incumbent upon them to withdraw, the loser or both sides depending on the situation. Once it's clear that one cannot win a war, one's duty to one's own people is to withdraw to at least save them from being slaughtered. If the other side lacks the means to slaughter them, they too must withdraw, for the sake of their own people.

If you've hit as hard as you can and it's not enough, there's no point in hitting more; that would be a waste of resources, physical, human and temporal. Like it or not, you have to go back to the table and agree a compromise or live forever in fear of "stupid sh*t" like bombs in random cafes and whatnot. Believe me, nobody wants that sort of foolishness in their life, not the bomber and not the bombed.

All the best.
You don't have experience in the matter, so I don't know why you talk with such confidence. The French did "punch" hard enough, they were notorious for rounding up all military age males in Algerian villages and executing them. They deliberately leveled entire villages in order to depopulate areas. The Russians poisoned wells, laid booby-trapped toys for Afghan kids and summarily executed any Afghan male they thought was a threat....They punched as hard as any military of that time could. Their problem was not that hey lacked military power or resources, it was that they never had the support of the people they were trying to insulate from these insurgencies.

Alexander the Great "punched" as hard as well...when conquering modern day Iran and Afghanistan he sacked and exterminated entire cities and towns, wiped out the tribes (women, children and all) that opposed him. He still faced a never ending insurgency from that area. Even when the rules of war were loose at best, combatants engaging in total war rarely found outright success simply by punching..those who found victory almost always had some element of political intrigue and diplomacy.

This "punch" hard until the enemy doesn't want to fight method has been tried over and over again and has almost never worked, especially in counter-insurgencies. There's a saying for counter-insurgencies: "You can't want it more than they do." The people you are fighting for, or the ones you are trying to win over, need to want a political/military victory as much as the intervening party. That's why the US lost Vietnam, or at least withdrew. That's why the French lost Algeria, and the USSR lost Afghanistan, and Sun Yat-sen lost China.

Last edited by Dalko43; 08-11-2014 at 09:16 PM..
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      08-11-2014, 10:02 PM   #244
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
You don't have experience in the matter, so I don't know why you talk with such confidence. The French did "punch" hard enough, they were notorious for rounding up all military age males in Algerian villages and executing them. They deliberately leveled entire villages in order to depopulate areas. The Russians poisoned wells, laid booby-trapped toys for Afghan kids and summarily executed any Afghan male they thought was a threat....They punched as hard as any military of that time could. Their problem was not that hey lacked military power or resources, it was that they never had the support of the people they were trying to insulate from these insurgencies.

Alexander the Great "punched" as hard as well...when conquering modern day Iran and Afghanistan he sacked and exterminated entire cities and towns, wiped out the tribes (women, children and all) that opposed him. He still faced a never ending insurgency from that area. Even when the rules of war were loose at best, combatants engaging in total war rarely found outright success simply by punching..those who found victory almost always had some element of political intrigue and diplomacy.

This "punch" hard until the enemy doesn't want to fight method has been tried over and over again and has almost never worked, especially in counter-insurgencies. There's a saying for counter-insurgencies: "You can't want it more than they do." The people you are fighting for, or the ones you are trying to win over, need to want a political/military victory as much as the intervening party. That's why the US lost Vietnam, or at least withdrew. That's why the French lost Algeria, and the USSR lost Afghanistan, and Sun Yat-sen lost China.
I may not have experience, but you don't have one damn useful idea to offer and you do have a lot of personal criticism to offer. I dn't know what experience you have or lack, but I don't care because having any or not doesn't mean you or anyone else can't have a good solution idea. You don't know me from Adam's house cat and I've about had enough of you telling me about me.

If you really have nothing to do but tell me what's wrong my ideas, and then tell me about me, and you have not one vaguely useful idea of your own to offer, however harebrained it may be, stop discussing this with me. Find someone who wants to read your sh*t and have an discussion that is about something other than some sort of actionable solution.

For my part of the deal, I promise that if all you have to say to me again is some crap about what experience I have or don't have, you will have the last word because I won't continue the discussion.

All the best.
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      08-12-2014, 07:13 AM   #245
Dalko43
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Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
I may not have experience, but you don't have one damn useful idea to offer and you do have a lot of personal criticism to offer. I dn't know what experience you have or lack, but I don't care because having any or not doesn't mean you or anyone else can't have a good solution idea. You don't know me from Adam's house cat and I've about had enough of you telling me about me.
I did offer useful input on prerequisites for peace in the Israeli-Palestinian, some of which were agreed on by you. As for offering useful input on your claim that genocide is justified by 'doing whatever it takes' to win a war...i don't agree with that.

I don't know you, nor do I know anything about Adam's house cat, but it is blatantly obvious from the your cavalier discussion of war and how you would wage one that you've never been to one.

You find my responses disrespectful...well guess what. I find your cavalier attitude disrespectful. You marginalize and disrespect those men and women in uniform who sacrifice so much in order to conduct war/operations in a way that emphasizes safeguarding and shielding noncombatants.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tony20009 View Post
If you really have nothing to do but tell me what's wrong my ideas, and then tell me about me, and you have not one vaguely useful idea of your own to offer, however harebrained it may be, stop discussing this with me. Find someone who wants to read your sh*t and have an discussion that is about something other than some sort of actionable solution.

For my part of the deal, I promise that if all you have to say to me again is some crap about what experience I have or don't have, you will have the last word because I won't continue the discussion.

All the best.
It's funny how after that whole rant, you still end with 'all the best.'

@tony20009, you did say that you think 'doing whatever it takes' is part of waging war, even if that means conducting genocide. And somehow your surprised that people would take offense to that? There are a lot of men in and women in the service who abide by a code of conduct and take offense to that. Again, I encourage you to do some reading:
- Thomas Aquinas' Just War Theory
- Geneva Conventions
- Law of Armed Conflict
- historical and modern rules of engagement

Take care.
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      08-14-2014, 03:16 PM   #246
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http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-s...low-1407979365

Looks like Pentagon and Capitol Hill are also israeli occupied territories. Damn zionist scum.
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      08-14-2014, 05:30 PM   #247
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Originally Posted by Petros View Post
http://online.wsj.com/articles/u-s-s...low-1407979365

Looks like Pentagon and Capitol Hill are also israeli occupied territories. Damn zionist scum.
Not surprising. Political exigencies abound:
  • People who vote matter.
  • People who have money and who vote matter more.
  • People who who are members of large demographic voting blocks and who thus can be counted on to vote in or two ways matter even more.
  • People who, directly or via non-governmental organizations that claim to lobby for their interests, contribute money to elections cannot be ignored unless a politician is willing to forgo future political office.
All the best.
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      11-05-2014, 07:49 AM   #248
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Exactly why I made this thread...

I'm going to leave this here:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/...war/ar-BBd43us
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      11-18-2014, 09:59 AM   #249
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Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
Exactly why I made this thread...

I'm going to leave this here:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/...war/ar-BBd43us
and im going to leave THIS here

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/w...tack/19207589/


http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world...to_crowds.html


http://www.jpost.com/Arab-Israeli-Co...rusalem-380880

http://www.jns.org/news-briefs/2014/...#.VGts5TTF-1Q=
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      11-18-2014, 10:02 AM   #250
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I agree with you. It's a shit show from both sides. I'm neither religion and completely impartial to the situation but from a humanitarian standpoint (I think you can consider this for the entire middle east), something actively needs to be done. What that is.... who the hell knows.
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      11-20-2014, 12:32 PM   #251
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Originally Posted by pgviper View Post
I agree with you. It's a shit show from both sides. I'm neither religion and completely impartial to the situation but from a humanitarian standpoint (I think you can consider this for the entire middle east), something actively needs to be done. What that is.... who the hell knows.
Israel-Palestine squabbles are a case of small fish in a big sea...there are much bigger (and deadlier) problems that need to be dealt with, especially in that region of the world:
-Assad's Syrian regime mass-killing his own people
-ISIS and ISIL, which sprouted as a result of Assad's brutality, are on the verge of becoming another AlQaeada, this time with their own nation-state.
-Numerous tribal and ethnic conflicts in central Africa
-Libya on the verge of becoming another broken state
-Iraq's sectarian division on the verge of another civil war
-Somalia is still a broken state, serving as a safe haven for pirates and terrorists.
-Iran even closer to getting nukes, which would likely start an arms race with Israel, Saudi Arabia and India.

People from a certain political cloth are crying "bloody murder" about Israel/Palestinian fighting. There certainly is death/destruction going on there, but relative to what is going on elsewhere in the world, it's consequences are marginal.
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      11-21-2014, 03:10 PM   #252
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
Israel-Palestine squabbles are a case of small fish in a big sea...there are much bigger (and deadlier) problems that need to be dealt with, especially in that region of the world:
-Assad's Syrian regime mass-killing his own people
-ISIS and ISIL, which sprouted as a result of Assad's brutality, are on the verge of becoming another AlQaeada, this time with their own nation-state.
-Numerous tribal and ethnic conflicts in central Africa
-Libya on the verge of becoming another broken state
-Iraq's sectarian division on the verge of another civil war
-Somalia is still a broken state, serving as a safe haven for pirates and terrorists.
-Iran even closer to getting nukes, which would likely start an arms race with Israel, Saudi Arabia and India.

People from a certain political cloth are crying "bloody murder" about Israel/Palestinian fighting. There certainly is death/destruction going on there, but relative to what is going on elsewhere in the world, it's consequences are marginal.
Another great point.

On the other hand... we all have health insurance now... kind of
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      11-21-2014, 03:23 PM   #253
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Originally Posted by Dalko43 View Post
There certainly is death/destruction going on there, but relative to what is going on elsewhere in the world, it's consequences are marginal.
You'd be right if we weren't so dependent on fossil fuels. That particular conflict has the potential to dramatically raise the price of oil.

And don't give me a line about how much we have in the US. If you think Exxon-Mobil will sell it here for anything less than the world price, you're dreaming. Unless you want the government to control the price?
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      11-21-2014, 05:08 PM   #254
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Originally Posted by 128Convertibleguy View Post
You'd be right if we weren't so dependent on fossil fuels. That particular conflict has the potential to dramatically raise the price of oil.
1) Please show me how much oil we still get from the Middle East. I already know the answer, but I want to see what you can dig up on your own, you know using your scientific skills..

2) I'm not aware of how Israel-Palestinian conflicts have anything other than a negligible impact on global oil prices...seeing as that region of the world doesn't produce much if any oil (relative to other regions). Please explain this to me as well.

There's your homework. Due date is by 5Pm sunday (EST). Now get to work.
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